Help me choose caliber and gun for CB

[MikeSSS]

I'm looking for a sporting weight rifle, it will be used for shooting cast boolits off the bench and in walk around plinking. Probably it will be used for hunting too, maybe with cast and maybe with jacketed. Being able to just walk in and buy ammo at Wal-Mart or Academy is desirable. I want a gun that isn't bothered by rain, no stock swelling, etc so this probably means synthetic stock.

Caliber: I'm thinking .308 because that's what I'm used to and because it works. I also load cast for 30-06. Does .308 have an accuracy advantage over 30-06? Don't know if the smaller calibers, 7-08 and such work well with cast, anybody know? I have 309-120R, 312-185R, 312-155 molds and have a 314299 ordered from the group buy so .30 molds and dies are already taken care of.

Marlin's XS-7 looks good but some posts say they have very long throats in .30 and 7mm calibers. This can't be good for accuracy.

Steven's model 200 is a Savage, it's trigger can be worked on with a lighter spring and some smoothing. Don't know about the throat length but everybody says they shoot very well so it probably is OK. There's lots of stuff available for these rifles too.

Mossberg ATR, there have been some posts indicating there are problems with these.

Remington 788, very accurate, very fast lock time, bolt handle might come off but they have a wood stock and I wouldn't want that in the rain. Still, these are excellent rifles, very stiff, nice barrel weight, OK trigger.

Older Savage 110, probably in 30-06, probably wood stock and people are asking a lot more for them than a new Stevens 200 sells for. Trigger work is fairly easy on the older 110's from what I read.

So, what do you think? Right now I'm thinking Stevens 200 in .308 or Remington 788 in .308.

Any and all advice and comments are welcome and will be appreciated.

Thanks,

Mike S

[rob45]

I would definitely stay with .308 or 30-06 chamberings strictly for sake of convenience. Brass is easier to obtain, wider selection of molds, and more plentiful load data for anything 30cal. As far as accuracy goes, I come from the school that believes that no one cartridge is "inherently more accurate" than another, at least when it comes to the type of use you're describing. Different loads are worked up for a reason. I have both and prefer the '06 simply because there seems to be more load data available when it comes to cast bullets.

As far as choices in stocks, I guess it all comes down to the amount of time, work, and money you're willing to invest. I can see your reasoning for a synthetic stock, but if you do go with a wood stock remember that proper bedding can go a long way towards improvement. Plus the fact that synthetics are an easy replacement if you're still not happy with wood.

The Remington is a great gun, but I truly believe you'll get more bang for the buck with any of the Savage designs (including Stevens).

Just my opinion. That and $3.93 will get you a cup of coffee at my local Starbucks.

[Buckshot]

............I'd stay with the 30 cal too, for the reasons given of choice of boolit designs. The 308, 30-'06, 30-30, and 30-40 are ALL proven cast shooters if you follow the rules :-) I never had much use for the 308. I had nothing against it, but then there wasn't anything exciting about it for me either. However, the last rifle I bought was a Savage M10FP in 308 :-) So that was my very first 308.

I hate to say it as I have been a huge promoter of Savage bolt actions, but I sent this one back to Savage. I really didn't even try to see what it would do. Their barrels are buttoned and should be smooth, but this one had some issues. I'd not a student of the ins and outs of possible problems in buttoning a barrel so I'll just say that it looked like the buttom much have been chattering.

I don't have a borescope, but looking as deeply inot the barrel from the muzzle with a very bright LED, both the lands and grooves were rough. It was VERY basic to me. This was NOT the way a barrel is supposed to appear. I did not communicate beforehand with Savage. It was still within the 1 year factory warranty period. I enclosed a letter explaining my disappointment, boxed it up and shipped it. I WAS a bit testy in my letter saying I guess it was a Monday rifle, "It's Monday and I don't want to be at work", or a Friday rifle, "It's Friday and I can't wait to get out of here". In any event I said, I sure did not expect to see this stuff from Savage.

In about 3 weeks I got it back with a copy of the work order of what they did, which included a new barrel, and a test target, below:

http://www.fototime.com/BE6FA2703C99FE8/standard.jpg

The target was attached to a worksheet listing the rifle's serial number and some other stuff. It listed the ammo used as Federal Match 168gr. I guess 3 rounds doing .441" at 100 yards isn't too bad :-) Due to our range being closed I STILL haven't been able to wring it out however. If I was going to buy another high power rifle, it'd be a Savage. If IT had a problem I'd not only send it back, but I'd also write a letter to the owner and suggest they get a new QC department and maybe pay for my shipping exspense.

...............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

The only thing I don't like about the 30-06 is the very large case capacity...that is just in shooting cast...not jacketed.

Joe

[softpoint]

I'd probably get a .308 if finding factory ammo was a absolute necessity, but for hunting , I'd prefer .358 Win. A Savage would be great in .308, then get a barrel in .358.............:cbpour:

[jlchucker]

30-06 ammo is pretty much universally stocked in stores. The caliber works very well with Lyman cast bullets 311041 and 311284, among lots of others. There's lots of loading data available from various reputable sources, not the least of which is the Lyman Cast Bullet Manual. The two I mentioned are pretty good gamekillers as well as being capable of some pretty good groups on targets. Of course you'd have to come up with a load for each for your new rifle--but that's all part of the fun.

[waksupi]

As many here know, I am a great fan of the .358 Win. I consider the .35 Whelen overbore for shooting cast, as is reflected in the velocities the Whelen users are shooting. I am equalling them with the .358 Win, with smaller case capacity. The same applies to .308, when compared to the .30-06.
If there is a perceived difficulty in getting .358 brass, most of mine has been formed from .308, and works perfectly. One pass over the sizer and trim, and they are ready to go.

[9.3X62AL]

As a cast boolit rifle caliber, it is difficult to fault the 30-30 WCF. Cast some #311041 Lymans as soft-points, and go make venison.

The 30-06 is just too darn versatile to do without. Get a premium 180 grain bullet like a Barnes TSX or Nosler Partition, and nothing in North America is off the menu. It is no slouch as a cast boolit platform, either.

In the discussion of '308 vs. 30-06', I think the 30-06's principal advantage is with jacketed bullets over 165 grains in weight. Up to that point, they run pretty close to one another in real world ballistics. On paper, the 308's smaller case capacity might be an advantage with castings--but I have no experience with the 308 and cast boolits to base that on--just calculation and book research. I've had several bolt rifles in both calibers, and I can't say that either one is more accurate than the other. These are sporter-weight barrels, for the most part--Rem 700s, Ruger 77s, Win 670/70. With jacketed bullets they liked, all were 1 MOA-capable, even the ratty old push-feed Win 670. That's deer- or elk-capable to any distance I have any business making a shot at a fine game animal.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

How cool would one of the Savage Classic 14s be in 358 Winchester? The perfect all around rifle for NA, cast or jacketed. Probably not going to happen, so I bought a CZ in 9,3x62.
It does it all, but ammunition is a plan ahead deal.

Rich

[Gunfixer]

Get one of each
:kidding:

[MikeSSS]

Yeah, the only reasonable way to compare between .308, 30-06, 30-30 and .358 is to get one of each on the same platform and work up loads each likes. I've never had a Savage, other than a 340 in .222 so I'll probably get a 110 or 10 just to try those.

Comparing is half the fun anyway.

[Three44s]

I carefully examined Buckshot's info -- and this is what I concluded:

His Monday/Friday rifle still needs a wee bit more TLC ............

......... and I'm the guy for the JOB!!!

(Shipping address info available upon request)

Three 44s

[9.3X62AL]

Probably not going to happen, so I bought a CZ in 9,3x62.
It does it all, but ammunition is a plan ahead deal. Rich

For real. Easily the most game-capable cast boolit rifle caliber I load for. You won't find ammo at Wal-Mart, though. Of course, the same could be said for the 358 or 35 Whelen.

[Bret4207]

Although my current favorite is a 308, I would say the best all round cast caliber is 35. No other caliber has the boolit choice of the 35. The 35 Rem works great, the 358 and 35 Whelen both have more oomph. I HATE stainless, sorry, but there are stainless/synthetic options in all 3 calibers out there.

[felix]

Figure your AVERAGE boolit weight desired, without regard to diameter. Look in the loading books for the case that will shoot the average weight at 2400 fps MAXIMUM. The best case/caliber would be the one that can use a bunch of different powders to produce the SAME maximum velocity. Select the gun having a 22 inch barrel. ... felix

[scrapcan]

Felix,

Can you expound on the 22 inch barrel statement? is it carry ability or something to do with expansion ratio for 30 caliber?

I am in the process of putting a 308 barrel that Waksupi traded me onto a santa barbara 98 action that has a 22-250 barrel on it at the moment. If I remember right the barrel meets the criteria except maybe it is sporter weight. I will keep the 22-250 for when I get the gumption to pinch my fingers in the seating die.

[MikeSSS]

Progress to date: got a Savage 16 FSS, it's used but also looks "unfired". Played with action screw tightness and barrel and tang touching. I relieved the stock around the barrel and nut and the tang and now there is no touching, not even close. The screws bottom the action against the pillars very well. The AccuTrigger was set to minimum and feels great after lubing the important places. Barrel length is 22".

Bob Pease wrote about bench rest rifles in 6 PPC and thought 21.75" was the best barrel length. Howard Dietz agrees with him. They say it has harmonic performance that is the best for accuracy at 100 and 200 yards. For longer range and larger cases longer barrels that give more velocity are supposed to be better. Howard Dietz has the range at New Branunels, Texas where a lot of benchrest shooting is done.

Full length sized some nice RP pickup brass and loaded 312-185R Lee's with gas checks and Alox sized to .311. Charge was 16.0 of 2400 and some others were 27.0 of Varget like the guys are using in the CBA matches. The front of the gas checks is in the bottom of the neck and the front shank of the bullets slide into the bore just touching the rifling. The front shank is .300" x .3025 so these bullets should ride the bore nicely, they do in the 30-30.

If it doesn't rain tomorrow I'll get some groups and chrono results. (or maybe even if it does rain)

[NickSS]

I love both the 30-06 and the 308 cartridges and have developed good loads with both cast and jacketed bullets for both. I find that for reloading accurate ammo the 308 has an edge on the 06. With Jacketed bullets just about any bullet and any medium speed powder will make accurate loads. Cast is similar. With the 308 I generally find a good load faster that with the 06. I now use my 06 primarily as a hunting rifle and my 308s for cast. The smaller case capacity is what I like. As for rifles I know just what you mean as I have looked for a do all rifle several times. After years of looking and trying at least a dozen bolt guns for the task I broke the paradigm and picked up a beat up 94 winchester with a lot of the finish worn off. It is a top eject 30-30 that had a busted stock and lots of external wear and some light surface rust. The bore and action were excellent. I bought a laminated stock for it and painted the external surfaces with some spray paint from Brownells that after painting you oven bake on to cure it. This rifle is impervious to weather, easy to carry, Shoots both cast and jacketed bullets extremely well and you can find 30-30s anywhere they sell ammo. This works for me.

[felix]

Manleyjt, I did not see your message until today. Sorry. However, MikeSSS, got it right in his explanation. Bob Pease got his info from the warehouse experiments in Houston back in the 70's. It's true, especially for the mid-speed powder cases. Even more reason to pick 35 caliber for no-fuss load development. ... felix

[Lead Fred]

Tho my 06s are the best shootin irons around.
I dont shoot cast threw them, If I were Id use the 200 gr Lee for its high BC.

For sporting weight and brush, I have to go with the 30-30 lever.

I use the Marlin for FTX fast bullets, and a Winnie 94 for cast.

They are so much fun.

[stubshaft]

Go with the 788. I had one in 30/30 and got bored with the accuracy. Like a fool I sold it...