Tuesday at the range 4 - 18 - 06

[Buckshot]

...............The venue this past Tueday was the 'usual'. Among the Burrito Invitational cognoscenti that means centerfire rifle, offhand cast lead. My main interest that Tuesday was the little nickle plated Iver Johnson 5 shot tip up revolver in 38 S&W. I searched all over and couldn't find any data labeled suitable for the "Old, unsafe, suicide specials" :-)

I really don't catagorize the IJ as being in that catagory. Yet it wasn't a S&W Victory model either. I did NOT want to hurt it, or myself. But neither did I want to load 50 rounds of stuff that would end up with slugs perhaps stuck in the barrel. The Lyman Cast Boolit man-u-el data for the 38 S&W said that "This data is suitable only in solid frame handguns".

I had read somewhere that the current manufacturers of 38 S&W ammo (at least here in the US of A, keep pressures below 14K-psi just FOR the old break tops. Now the Lyman book showed pressures for most their loads and these ranged from 8.4 K-psi to maybe 12K-psi. If the statement re the 14K pressure was true, then ALL the Lyman data shown should be safe.

Yet who to trust, and again why risk damage to it or me? I had 2 boolits to load for the IJ. Both were swaged to .363". One, the Lyman 35863 cast of pure lead dropped from the 4 cav mould at that diameter. It's trip into the swage die was to have a hollow base swaged in. The other slug was the Lee 358-158 RF that had been cast of WW alloy. It was lube-sized .359 then went into the swage die base first to have one honker of a HP swaged in :-)

The beginning load data for a 141gr slug was 1.7grs of Bullseye. I substituted W231 for the Bullseye and loaded the 1.7gr charge under both boolit wieghts and alloys. Both slugs got a moderate roll crimp. I'd also spent time Monday loading 150 rounds for the S&W Victory model. These were some of the same slugs made up for the IJ, plus some Lyman 358430's cast of pure lead. Fifty of these were as cast and TL'ed and 50 were swaged to .363" with a hollow base, and a hollow point. They became rather longish wadcutter looking deals.

Just to keep from using up all this computers' ink, the Iver Johnson did not like the harder cast 158gr Lees at all. It sprayed them about the target paper with wild abandon (25 yards). I'd thought sized to .363" they'd have done much better, but oh well. The pure lead 35863's with a HB did much better. I won't task your incredulity by suggesting the ole Iver Johnsom breaktop is a target pistol, by any means.

However, the accuracy it displayed was much better then a person might expect. I should add here that the sights were a major hindrence in trying to shoot and things might have been better had they been filed completley off! The rear sight is on the locking latch itself and is merely a 'U' shaped trough, whose up raised sides are paper thin. The front sight in sideview is a nicely sized sugerloaf. However, turn the pistol to actually USE the front sight and it almost disappears totally. Heck, I wouldn't have suspected they could machine steel that thin back in those days. Now I know where the idea for injector razor blades came from.

Suffice to say, I about wrecked my eyes for the day trying to focus on the dang things. I carry sight black in my range box, but it would have been folly to try and use it here as the edges facing me were so thin I don't think there was any surface the spray could have stuck on. The best group of 5 rounds I deliberately shot for group was 2 -1/4" and discounting one shot would have been a tidy 1.5". Most the rest shot ran 3" or a bit more. Okay for this pistol and these horrific sights. It does have a bit of side spitting. There is NO forcing cone at all. That afternoon at home I took a taper reamer and put a tiny vestigal cone in the breech end. We'll have to see if that helped or if I've totally wrecked it. I did fire a round of the 358430 over Deputy Al's chronograph for a blistering 431 fps. That'd raise quite a welt if you got hit with it!

For the rifle shoot I used a M38 Swede. The ammo was 30 rounds of a test I'd loaded testing the 6 cavity group buy 135gr 6.5 Kurtz and the 172gr Oldfeller cruise missle. I didn't have any other ammo to shoot. I don't know what I was thinking when I loaded this test ammo for the M38 when all previous testing had been done in the longer barreled M96. Since they really weren't much good for testing, they needed to go.

This ammo had been loaded 5 rnds of each in 1.0gr increasing powder charges. So that means I had 15 rounds of each slug over 36.0, 37.0, and 38.0grs of WC872. The course of fire is 10 rounds at 50 yards. I'd used 4 of the 135gr slugs at 36.0grs of WC872 as sighters. HA! Two radicly different boolit weights and 3 powder charges to shoot an offhand match with, right!

Happily I won! Not that I did so well, just that the others did more poorly then usual. I managed a 88-1X. Four of those shots fired were 10's. Then a couple 9's and I think three 8's and a 6. I forget which load and boolit I had Deputy Al fire through his chrongraph, but it was going 1787 fps.

Next week we're shooting muzzle loaders. Means I don't have to reload anything yet! Maybe I can get them to shoot 22's again, or maybe pistols after that?

.................Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

Some of the groups fired by that little Iver Johnson were quite snug, indeed. Lots better than I expected from the little critter. I have a similar contraption, and its downrange results with factory 145 grainers would rate "minute of #2 washtub" at 25 yards. I've found that sight blackening spray doesn't so much DARKEN the front sight blade, as it THICKENS it into near-visibility. Spray the sides, not the rear surface.

My efforts in the Match need no detailing......let's leave it at this, I didn't give the SMLE the sort of dexterity needed to keep up with Rick and Glen. As usual. It isn't the rifle's fault, its last sortie was at Angeles Shooting Club, and it rang the daylights out of steel dinger plates at 300 and 500 yards with the same load used on Tuesday--18.0 grains of 2400/Dacron/190 grain MMFT.

This day's project involved The Red Pretenders in 6.5 x 55 Swede, 140 grainers with IMR 4350 and 4831 and WC-860 as fuels. Since the following text is off-topic, feel free to stop reading if you so choose. The idea was to see if any of these fuels in sane dosage weights would produce 2700 FPS with 140 grain hunting bullets. Hornady Interlocks did this work, and Nosler Partitions will be the next test media.

I was interested to see what WC-860 would do in the 22" barrel of the Ruger 77. Buckshot's work in Swede surplus rifles shows that the surplus fuel will provide service ballistic equivalent performance in these rifles. The surplus rifles use longer barrels and faster twists than my Ruger, however.

WC-860 can manage 55.0 grains in the Rem 6.5 x 55 cases without pushing the bullets back out after seating. Those round kernels are compressed a little, though. This isn't good practice with most spherical powders, but the kernels are pretty big--so I imagine the primer flame from the Fed 215 primers reached deeply enough to do business. Results were very consistent--extreme spread from 2472 FPS-2504 FPS, 15 rounds. One ragged hole at 50 yards. This isn't as fast as I'd like to see the bullets going, but it's very usable velocity nonetheless. There were zero pressure signs visible on the brass. This powder will get a second look with the Partitions--at 2500 FPS, a 200 yard zero gives a trajectory 2.5" high at 100 and 10" low at 300, with point-blank to roughly 250 yards. Very usable, indeed.

Boosting the speed to 2700 FPS would enable +2.0" @ 100/-8.3" @ 300, and extends point-blank to about 265 yards. Not much ballistic gain, and not a lot of energy increase either. Given the results that follow, I don't think the safety issues are worth the added velocity.

I had to run the IMR-4350 two full grains past book max powder weights to achieve 2730 FPS, and there was a slight ejector recess mark on the case heads at that load level. Primer pockets were still tight, but a 1.0 grain reduction is called for, and that gave 2680 FPS and smaller sd's.

1.0 grain over book max was needed to approach 2700 FPS with IMR-4831, and this was a decent load--mean was 2692 FPS, sd's under 12 FPS, no pressure signs visible. "Safe max" with this combo in this rifle. 2.0 grains over book max got to 2750 FPS mean, ejector marks starting to appear. 3.0 over max gave definite recess marks and one loose primer pocket, so after 5 of those rounds the party was over and the remaining loads have been disassembled. Velocity mean was 2830 FPS, with pretty wide fluctuations. All bad.

The Nosler Partitions are different animals entirely in terms of the internal ballistic performance potential, so loads will be backed off significantly and re-worked upwards, with targeting included in the tests to follow. Given the trajectory minuteae achieved by boosting pressures to hazard levels to gain 200 FPS, 2700 FPS may not be safely attainable with the 140 grain Partitions in this rifle. 2500 FPS is still very usable to any practical hunting range--300 yards--so little is lost by keeping things safe and reasonable. Nosler 125 grain Partitions will only be opted for if the 140's won't shoot accurately between 2400 and 2700 FPS, which is likely its safe upper limit in my rifle.

[StarMetal]

Deputy Al,

Gosh Al, I reckon I better not say how fast the 140's were going out of my custom 260 Rem Arisaka, nor publish the load....but alot faster then your hot load for that 2700 some fps one. I was using a faster powder too...4895!!!!

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Joe et al--

The 260 Remington seems able to safely get 100-200 FPS more from a given bullet weight than the 6.5 x 55 does. What I was driving at was that the Crusades we go on for 100 or 200 FPS don't yield much real-world gain in the hunting fields, in light of the stresses placed on platforms and cartridge components.

One other positive outcome on Tuesday.......that ratty old 10/22 shot pretty well in box-stock trim with a whatzis cheapie 4X scope installed and bulk ammo. The much-maligned Rem HP stuff would do sub-1" at 50 yards if the shots were spaced out a little, more frequent rates opened things up some. Dynapoints were about the same, hitting a little lower on target. Federal bulk HP's shot very well, one 10-shotter at ~3/4". Five shot groups would hold well under an inch pretty reliably if spaced out a half-minute or so apart.

No, I won't be dumping 200-300 bucks into barrel and stock for this critter. It's ready to hunt with as it sits, maybe a scope upgrade in the future is all that I'll do.

[nighthunter]

Starmetal .... How about some info on your 260 Rem Ariska. I have 2 Ariskas and have been trying to decide what to do with one of them. The other is original with the crysthansimum(sp?). A 260 Rem might be the way to go.
Nighthunter

[StarMetal]

Well I bought a T38 Arisaka that was shot out, but the otherwise the rest of the rifle was in excellent condition. I stripped it down and removed the barrel myself and sent it off to E R Shaw in PA. They rebarreled it, cut the barrel to 22 inche per my instructions, refaced the receiver, put a new bolt handle on it, polished the whole bolt and trigger to bright metal, bead blasted the all the metal and satin blued it. Then I bought a Boyds walnut stock and glass bedded it, put a 3x9 Tasco Worldclass scope on it. I also opened oup the magazine and feed rails as the 260 is alot fatter round then the original 6.5 Jap. I also fabricated a new magazine box and new follower. I worked the trigger over some. Oh and I throated it out further too as SAAMI specs for the 260 Rem has a very short throat. It will shoot 129 and 140 gr jacketed under 3/4 inch at 100 yards. First year I took it hunting I shot a doe in doe season about 100 yard shot and she didn't go anywhere. I was able to recover the bullet from her too and is was a long tranversing angle through her body and ended up right under the hide in her ham. That's it. If I had it to do over I'd went with a 358 Winchester and got a barrel from one of the noted better barrel makers. So far it hasn't been a great cast shooter. The twisit on a 260 is 1in 9 inches.

Joe

[Bucks Owin]

Sounds like you've put a lot of work in that Arisaka! Could you post a photo? I'd like to have a look.

Dennis

BTW, 1:9 does sound like "less than optimum" for cast boolits....

[nighthunter]

Starmetal ... the thing that bothers me most about an Ariska is the cock on closeing. I know about the proof tests to show how strong the action is but I'd almost hate to put the money into something built on an action that I have questions about. Actions used to be available at a price that was more than reasonable. I think those days are pretty much gone. I'm still not sure what to do with this old rifle. I have shot a couple of deer with it chambered in the original 6.5 Jap and they died pretty much dead. Gonna have to give it some more thought I guess. I like the 35 caliber too.
Nighthunter

[StarMetal]

Nighthunter,

That cock on closing is absolutely nothing to question. Most of us grew up with cock on opening and we're use to it. Cock on closing feels strange to us. Same as British cars, everything for the driver is on the righthand side of the car, so if it's a stick on the floor you shift with your left hand. Does that make the car inferior? NO. All I'm going to say about the strenght of the Arisaka is it's damn strong and all you've heard about them being strong is true. So don't worry about the strength issue. Look how many of us here love those 91 Argentine carbines and rifles...they cock on closing. So do the British SMLE's. No big deal. Tell you what too, cock on closing is a hell of alot easier on the sear and caming ramp on the bolt then cock on opening. Only bad thing I heard bout the Japs is they don't handle gas as well (this was said by ClarkM who blew guns up to find their weak and strong points) and I dispute that because the big round safety knob has no holes through it and blocks the bolt rails entirely, which a 98 Mauser does not. The Jap has the vent holes in the bolt like the Mauser too so that's not an issue either. You know on the 98 Mauser the striker works inside a hole drilled through the bolt shroud, gas can escape back there.

By the way the Jap is a copy of the 93 Mauser right down to the trigger disconnect safety. They just changed the safety and there is a guide lug behind the left bolt lug.

Joe