Mosin Nagant

[Suo Gan]

I just picked up four tins of 7.62x54R for a really decent price. But I do not have a MN. Kind of putting the cart before the horse. But, I am trying to decipher what one to go with. Can anyone tell me the difference between the units with the hexagonal reciever, and the one without? Which one should I buy and stay within the spirit of the skin flint? Thanks much, Chris

[WILCO]

M44 Carbine is the better firearm in my mind.......

[Suo Gan]

I guess its been here hiding all along.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=24046&highlight=mosin+nagant

[jack19512]

I guess its been here hiding all along.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=24046&highlight=mosin+nagant







As in my post to that thread if it is to be used for hunting the best in my opinion is the M38. If not then it is probably just a personal choice.

[NickSS]

The Moison Nagants currently available and cheap are the model 91/30, Model 38 and the Model 44. These are all WWII rifles and most that I have seen have been arsenal refurbished. The 91/30 can be found with octagon barrels as well as the more numerous round barrel. Some may have octagon receivers. Receivers that are octagon only means that the Russians used older model receivers in making the newer rifle. The 91/30 shoots well and is less noisy to the shooter due to a 27 inch barrel. The rifle balances well and is not as heavy as a 98 mauser. The Models 38 and 44 are essentially the same rifle except that the Model 44 has a folding bayonet permanently attached. This bayonet makes this the heaviest of the three (The bayonet can be removed). These two both have 20 inch barrels and are really loud with surplus ammo. The also throw a ball of fire out the muzzle at every shot that is spectacular even on an overcast day. The MN I own all required adjusting the sights to get them on target as they were designed and sighted for having the bayonet permanently attached in the using position. If you want a spectacularly accurate rifle buy a Finnish MN. I have a model 28 that is the most accurate military rifle I own.

[38-55]

FWIW,
I kinda like the 91/30 of the rusky nagants.. The finns are the best of the lot.. The rusky nagants are sighted/regulated to shoot 18cm ( that's the spec ) high at 100 meters.. They are all great cast bullet shooters in my experience.. though the sights can be a bit of a handicap as they are not very fine.. more than adequate for plinking national socialists but a bit crude for precision target work..
Of the above models I've had the least luck with the m-44's.. They seem to need the bayonet attached and extended to shoot sorta straight. I believe this was how they where zeroed/regulated and getting them to shoot other wise has been problematic for me. Just my experience.
Stay safe
Calvin

[Ivantherussian03]

m38's are nice...I have enjoyed mine. No bayonets attached.

[autofix4u]

I know they are hard to find, but my first choice for a shooter would be a m91/59. 22" heavy barrel cut down from a m91/30 length. No bayo & nice shooter.

[Dutch4122]

I know they are hard to find, but my first choice for a shooter would be a m91/59. 22" heavy barrel cut down from a m91/30 length. No bayo & nice shooter.

I agree, the 91/59's are nice. Mine shoots the fat 314299 sized @ .316" (Group Buy bullet) more accurately than I can hold it; when propelled by either 12 grains of Unique or 13 Grains of Red Dot.

My 91/30 is just as accurate with either load. The nice thing about the 91/30 long rifles is that they are cheaper than the carbines, at least in my area. 91/59 carbines are getting hard to find; but the M38 carbines are still plentiful.

Hope this helps,:smile:

[jack19512]

Here is a pic of my M38 and a 3 shot group fired from a distance of 75 yards if my memory serves me correctly. I have never used cast in my M38 so I don't know how well it shoots them. The 3 round group is my jacketed reloads.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/M38.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/jack19512/M38reloads.jpg

[jack19512]

I would like to do this with the capability to shoot the pants off my buddies fancy smancy new Sako that he paid a couple grand for (with scope). And do it with boolits!







You're not asking for much! :)

[jack19512]

I would like to add this also. I had a M44, 2 of the 91/30's, and my M38. I only have the M38 and one 91/30 now. Don't be fooled into thinking because the rifles such as the 91/30's have a longer barrel that they will automatically be more accurate. I have never been able to get any of the MN rifles I have/had to shoot with my M38. I think it just the luck of the draw in getting a very good one.

[Cayoot]

Nobody is mentioning the Finnish M-39 variant. However mine is a Sako and it shoots great!

[Dutch4122]

Nobody is mentioning the Finnish M-39 variant. However mine is a Sako and it shoots great!

One of my biggest regrets. I didn't jump on one of the Finns when they were under $200. Now they're well over $300 if you can find one![smilie=b:

[45 2.1]

One of my biggest regrets. I didn't jump on one of the Finns when they were under $200. Now they're well over $300 if you can find one![smilie=b:

They were under $70 back in the mid 90's. ;)

[jack19512]

Nobody is mentioning the Finnish M-39 variant.






Well, here is what the op wants to do, "I want this to be a super cheap project. I would like to attach a scope, turn the bolt, sporterize the stock, etc., etc. all for less than $200", might be a reason why no one is mentioning the Finnish M-39. :-)

[WILCO]

They seem to need the bayonet attached and extended to shoot sorta straight.

Indeed! I shot my M44 @ 1,000 yards using the open sights with the bayonet extended. Got real excited when my spotter called a hit on the moving target!
Was quickly disappointed when the word "nope" came across the radio from the pit.....

[GrizzLeeBear]

"I want this to be a super cheap project. I would like to attach a scope, turn the bolt, sporterize the stock, etc., etc. all for less than $200."

Get one of "scout" mounts that let you mount a scope in place of the front sight leaf. Just use a long eye relief scope. Then you don't have to spend money reworking the bolt handle.

"I would like to do this with the capability to shoot the pants off my buddies fancy smancy new Sako that he paid a couple grand for (with scope). And do it with boolits!"

If your buddy is a good shooter, good luck with that. :twisted: Sako's are very well made rifles. My dad has one in .222 that is exceptionally accurate.

[Doc1]

Just a quick note that the M44 was designed to be fired with its bayonet extended. Folding it back will change your point of impact noticeably.

I'm much more of a Mauser man and don't care too much for the Mosins, though I do have a couple of them as cheap truck and marsh guns.

FWIW, I have kept the bayonets extended when hunting wild boar in our south Mississippi marshes. Haen't needed it yet, but it could be insurance against getting charged by a tusker!

Best regards
Doc

[Ricochet]

The same is true for the M91/30s. They were originally sighted in with the bayonet fixed.

[Dutchman]

I just picked up four tins of 7.62x54R for a really decent price. But I do not have a MN. Kind of putting the cart before the horse.

No. This is standard cruffler philosophy. You should also buy the bayonet before the rifle and maybe the sling, too.



Can anyone tell me the difference between the units with the hexagonal reciever, and the one without?

The so-called hex receiver was made from 1891 to 1930. The 91/30 introduced the rounded receiver. There's no difference in them.



Which one should I buy and stay within the spirit of the skin flint?

I don't personally care for the carbines however, IMO, the m/38 is the better way to go simply because it'll shoot better without that dang bayonet sticking out on the range. And the incidence of m/38 are lower than m/44 carbines. My son-in-law bought two m/38 from J&G a while back both high wall receivers (wartime). Nice carbines, very nice condition. I studied the rear sight with just the barreled action in-hand and I think I'll be able to make a long eye relief scope mount that replaces the entire m/38 rear sight as its on a sleeve around the barrel. A most excellent mount can be made thusly but it requires the rotary table on the mill and that'll be $$$.

I'm much more of a fan of the m/91-30 in both Russian and Finn design. Last year I bought my son-in-law a as-new/unissued Finn 91/30 in a private party buy. The Finns paid more attention to their rifles. They did little "things" like loosened the barrel bands and kept them in place with nails or screws so the fore stock wouldn't impinge the barrel and thus accuracy. The Finns made quite a hobby out of killing Russian soldiers. They really liked it. If you read about the Finns during the Winter War 1939-40 you'll gain a great respect for them as a people and as riflemen. There are few human tribes on this earth who've done what the Finns did with so little.

The $100 91/30 with bayonets/sling/cleaning kit/pouches is a great deal and everybody should have at least one. I have 3. I also bought my son-in-law a laminated stock 91/30 from AIM. The stock was brand new, never used. Very nice rifle for $120 with the kit. I have two Russian 91/30 (one was $39 in 1995) and one Finn m/1891 with a new Belgian barrel. That puppy is a cast bullet shooter! And I have a Russian 1916 "Peter the Great" m/1891. I'm a Mauser man so don't confuse all these Mosin-Nagants as meaning anything :roll:. I swore I'd never handload 7.62x54R... but I do.. but only with cast bullets.. so far.

Be wary of the cheap long eye relief scope mounts. They're just not anchored good enough and don't have lateral stability.

From studying this website and their mount I'll give them my recommendation for what is a difficult rifle to mount a conventional receiver scope. Its for "sporters"
http://www.rocksolidind.com/photo.html
only but Mosins make pretty good all around rifles if you don't mind the lack of any gas escape features and that its a clunky bolt action that should've been trashed 80 years ago. Other than that their a very good rifle. Time has proven that despite my partial dislike... mostly stemming from 1960 when I met Nikita Kruschev and Fidel Castro while on the floor under the desk at school during an air raid drill. (hiding under a school desk isn't much protection from an atomic bomb.. we learned that later).

I have two Russian 91/30 with Finn SA army property marks. Both of them have KK scratched into the leftside of the buttstock. I was told this means konikivaari - machine gun, that these were battlefield pick-ups assigned to a machinegun squad. My spelling is off on that I'm sure. Anyway, one of these 91/30 LOOKS like a battlefield pick-up. You don't see Mosins like this anymore on the wholesale market. This dude has character up the yingyang. It still has the Russian stock and all Russian parts. How it escaped Finn rebuild I don't know but it did and we have it. The other KK is also 99% Russian with a Finn front sight spacer block. The only thing the Finns did was put in a dovetailed spacer between the barrel and sight blade to lower the bullet impact.

There is a rifle with a carved "remembrance" if you will, in Finland. It says: "Killed many Russians". I think it belonged to one of the famous Finn snipers. That's the reason I can stomach Mosin-Nagant rifles and why I much prefer Finn Mosins. They killed many Russians and it was Russians who made American's children huddle under their desks while learning about atomic bombs in 1960.

Dutch

Finn m/1891 with Belgian barrel. Didn't have a handguard when it was imported though the bands are cut for a handguard. It looks rather slim and sleek without one so it'll stay like this from now on. This is a one-hole 50 yd cast bullet shooter with 311299 and 12 grs Unique.

http://images106.fotki.com/v494/photos/2/28344/157842/yr31-vi.jpg

http://images41.fotki.com/v1246/photos/2/28344/157842/yr32-vi.jpg

[NickSS]

I shot my M44 with a batch of Lyman 314299 200 gr boolits yesterday and kept them all on the paper and mostly in the black. Considering the 12 pound trigger pull that is long and grating and the rather poor sights it comes with I figured that was not too bad. The target was a 25 yard pistol target at 100 yards range. The load was 20 gr of AA5744.

[Ricochet]

The so-called hex receiver was made from 1891 to 1930. The 91/30 introduced the rounded receiver. There's no difference in them.
The 91/30 model with the rounded receiver was adopted in 1930 as the name implies, but it took several years to get production standardized with all the new features. They were still making 'em with "hex" receivers up till the mid '30s. There's no real advantage to them, but I think they look cool. All the Russian Mosins coming out now were refurbed and put in storage by the Soviets sometime after WWII, and they're made up of mixed parts with the numbered parts renumbered to match the number on the barrel. So you may get one with a barrel dated in the late 1920s (originally a "Dragoon" model) that's in a late WWII style stock, as I have. Didn't matter to the Russians, and doesn't bother me, but it bothers some collectors that it's not "original." That's the way the Russians rolled, they just made it work with what they had.

The Finns had a similar philosophy, all of their Mosins being rebuilt using captured Russian receivers. They almost entirely used "hex" receivers FWIW.

[Three44s]

A hex receiver would be nice ..... but all my Ruskies are round models.

I would gladly trade either or both of my M44s for two M38's.

Three 44s

[4570guy]

I have an M38 that shoots very well. I've not yet tried cast in it, but load 150 gr jacketed. It will hold inside of 2" groups off the bench with hand loads.

[VintageRifle]

A couple of things to check for when buying your Mosin Nagant.

1. Is the barrel counterbored? Many of the current lot of M38, M44, 91/30's are counterbored. My preference is for a non counterbored rifle unless the muzzle is really messed up on a non counterbored rifle.

2. Check the bore, these all had corrosive ammunition shot out of them. There are many with near mint bores (crowns my not be mint) and there are many sew pipes. I have a couple with rough bores, but really nice crowns and they shoot very well. I have one that is rough with a worn crown and it shoots like a shot gun.

Other than that the normal matching serial numbers if possible on bolt, barrel, magazine, butt plate. Many parts might show a lined out number and a matching number stamped or electro penciled on. I have some of each and personally it does not bother me. Many have and the bolt numbers scrubbed anyway and new numbers stamped or e-penciled on during refurbishment.

The so called hex receivers where made up until at least 1932 and up to 1936. I have one with matching date on receiver and barrel.

www.7.62x54r.net

[Suo Gan]

Big Five Sporting Goods was running a sale here that ended last week. I went to the first store and asked to have a look at their wares. They had two 91/30's and two M44's. All four guns did not look worthy enough at first glance to pass the boat anchor test. But since I was there, I looked at them anyway, and I brought my bore light. Both 91/30's had barrels that were rebored. Both M44's did not. Even for $100 bucks I was leary because all the bores were so dark and caked with crap. I moved on to the next Big Five in the next town. Same story. I left to reconnoiter, and decided against any of these. I guess there is the possibility that all the decent (halfway) MN are gone and this is whats left. I think I might as well order a couple online and pay the extra $10 and get the pick of the litter, and sell the ones that dont cut it. 3 x $90 = $350 with shipping and dealer payment. I could probably just keep them five years and sell them for $200 a piece too. No offense to anyone, the MN must be the homliest weapon ever produced right along side the T/C Contender :-P. Thanks for all the really helpful advice so far. I even had to google cruffler, that was a new one!

[9.3X62AL]

My sole venture into the Mosin-Nagant Tribal Lands involves a post-war Romanian M-44, vintage 1954. Its bore is pristine, nice muzzle, and it cost $80 about 12 years ago at a Divorce Fire Sale. Bore is ~.312", throat a fat .313". I had heard that bit about extending the bayonet to tighten groups, but with the Russian milsurp ammo the rifle arrived with--more help was clearly in order. Its bullets mic'ed .307", and subsequent land diameter turned out to be .304"--so the Soviet J-words were mostly doing a bore-ride down the barrel. They hit point-on downrange, about minute-of-orange crate at 100 yards and maybe minute-of-Frigidaire at the 200 meter gong at the gun club that Buckshot and I infest.

I cleaned the little rifle and put it away, and it sat in the safe for 3 years or so before I took the critter out and did the Tale Of The Tape listed above--which explained much. I accumulated some reloadable brass, a die set, and Beagled my Lyman #311291 to Soviet dimensions. This kind of worked, after a fashion--nose got to almost .304", drive bands to .313". I had to spread the gas check rim a bit with a punch, but they centered and seated OK. Yeah, Beagling widens the GC shank, too.

I stair-stepped the loads of 2400 from 13.0 grains to 16.0 grains in 0.5 grain increments, 10 rounds each of 7 charge weights. This series, fired over 2 range days, provided one of the most telling examples of varying barrel harmonics I've ever seen in a rifle. One powder charge would group reasonably at 50 yards, two 5-shot strings scoring similarly--then the next one or two powder weights would scatter 2X-3X as widely. The following charge weight would contract, then the next weight would blow things up again. 16.0 grains did the best, about 1.75"-2.0" at 50 yards--and this held over the next series of 70 rounds, all loaded with that charge. Not spectacular, but usable for rats and jacks.

My hint would be to vary your charge weights a bit, and see if that tightens or expands downrange shot clustering. It did in my M-44, and it has had its bayonet removed since its first firing.

[Three44s]

I can never get past all the grease on these guns when looking down the tubes nor even looking over the outsides.

So I PUNT!

I figure with buying in numbers ....... you'll get some lemons ..............

.......... and some cherries!

The Lemons .............

........ can go away or become lamp projects or???????

So far, I have not been stung ........ guess I'm lucky.

My M44s were supposed to throw j-words sideways ........

They did not.

But I still like my M38 ...... counterbore and all much better as it's lighter ........ balanced better.

And those 91/30's just look cool and shoot real nice with so much sight radius!

With that counter bored barrel my M38 shoots minute of golf ball at 45 yds with Winchester 150 gr. power points (.308" dia.) so some day when I get my ducks in a row and start casting, sorting the lemons and cherries will get easier ........ and the real fun can begin!

Three 44s

[462]

Suo Gan,

Today's Big-5 ad shows 38s for $150.

Get a C&R license and buy mil-surps for wholesale prices. Bought my 38, a few years-ago for $79.

[Pathfinder1cav]

Suo Gan,
If you really expect to match your buddies Sako, about your only chance would be a decent M-39 (which you can get with a Sako barrel, but the others work fine).
It will cost you $250-300 http://www.gunsnammo.com/ for one with a good sharp bore, but worth it & shoots cast great! You would need to reload to get near Moa accuracy though.
If it was me with an M-39 (original iron sights) against your buddy, I would challenge him to shooting long range (without sighter shots) and you would probably win! The iron sights are well calibrated on out to 1000M and most guys with scoped rifles have no idea where to hold beyond about 400y... it doesn't mean a thing if you have a 1/10 Moa rifle, but don't have it pointed in the right direction when it goes bang!
If you do go with a M-39, PLEASE don't Bubba it- you will just diminish the value & they probably shoot better than you can if left stock. Also, part of their appeal is that they are "Battle field" rugged as they are.
Incidently, I would prefer one of the Octogon receivers as they generally have a little better machining if you end up with a Russian rifle.

[Ricochet]

The visible part of the receiver above the stock looks like part of an octagon, but the octagon shape's not continued under the stock. There's a total of 6 flat facets, which is why U.S. Mosin collectors call them "hex." Dunno how the Russians distinguished them from the later round receivers. The shape on the bottom is the same between the hex and round receivers, and they'll freely swap stocks.

[milsurp mike]

I sent you a pm.I got all the stuff you need from the rifles to the bent bolt conversions and a scope mount that attaches to the rear sight mount and a Long eye releif scope for this mount.Mike

[Ed Barrett]

Sorry about your money situation. Just keep looking for a Finn. You never know when one will pop up "worth the money".
As far as pulling down millsurp and reloading for cast, the problem is the primers are still corrosive and your into the same cleaning problems as shooting it as is. better to pickup 100 cases and reload with cast in them with good primers and powder. The tins of milsurp ammo will just keep going up in price and you can sell them to a non reloader for a little profit to put towards your next gun.

[Gee_Wizz01]

I am partial to the Finns, I have a M91 that I purchased for $39 in the early 90's. I didn't know anything about MN's but they were on sale at the local Roses dept store and I figured for $39 I couldn't go wrong. The firearms manager was a very nice lady who let me and my buddy look through about 15 rifles to find the one I wanted. I picked out a nice looking one that turned out to be a jewel. When I cleaned the up cosmoline the rifle it was a Finn rebuild with a brand new Tikka barrel installed and it still had the Finn rebuild hang tag on tied on the sling loop. It is extemely accurate and fun to shoot. I then bought a an M28 which is also extremely accurate. After that I bought a couple of M44's and 91/30. Both M44's shoot well, but the 91/30 was a disappointment as it was beautiful on the outside, but had a sewer pipe barrel. All but the 91/30 shoot cast boolits extremely well.

G

[Three44s]

Quote from Suo Gan:

".........but have you priced 54r brass? It is quite expensive...


http://www.grafs.com/product/266859

I bought 600 from Grafs this spring but I see they are out right now.

Might pay to watch for it.

Three 44s

[Suo Gan]

Breaking News... just bought five 91/30's from Classic Arms. I hope to get a couple (or more) that are shooters and not boat anchors. I need to invest in a crystal ball. I will start a new thread when I get everything worked out with the five. As slow as I move that could be in a few years? No brass yet...I will get there sometime. Thanks again for all the advice and helpful pictures.

[txpete]

91/59.if you can find a nice one get it.they are getting hard to find now.I picked this one up from a friend thinning his collection.
these are excellent shooters.
pete
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/91-59II.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/txpete/91-59.jpg

[sheepdog]

The finnish and American 30-06 nagants tend to be the best but rare. The czar era ones are the next best and get cheaper made as they get newer. The hex was the earlier ones where a hex shaped rod of steel was cut in a mount and milled out. They tend to be some of the stronger ones.