Hunting with cast Hollow Point bullets. Successes and failures?

[TDC]

Due to the huge new interest in hollow point and "Cramer" type molds I believe a thread devoted to actual "real world" results is in order. Anyone else agree?

I've been hunting with cast hollow point bullets for many years. I've had much success using them. I would like to hear some other experiences and stories relating to their use. Hunts for deer, elk, moose, bear, buffalo, pigs and others are all welcome.....

I've read many posts questioning the usefulness of HP's claiming a lack of penetration and/or excessive fragmentation. If you can offer some personal experience (no untested opinions or theories please). Please be specific on the caliber, alloy, components and other factors that caused you to arrive at your conclusion or gave you a good or bad result.

Thanks!

Terry

[Ricochet]

My uncle bagged many a deer with his S&W M29 loaded with #429244HPs. The samples he gave me when I was a kid were quite soft. I found myself one of those moulds and have had good success shooting those boolits, cast rather soft, and they expand impressively, but I no longer hunt.

[canuck4570]

I hunted woodchuck with my 30-06
used 196 gr saeco bullet at 1680 pfs
with no hollow point small entrance small exit (caliber size)
made a 1/8 hollow point 1/4 inche deep
caliber entrance and golf ball size exit
alloy was WW water drop
was good because immediate expansion after all a woodchuck is only about 3 inches thick
for varmint very good
never tried it on deer maybe to explosive...

[GLynn41]

Glen Fryxell( hope I got close) took a mulie doe-- and I have shot a number of groundhogs with them ---did take one deer with a soft hp nose and a hard base --worked well-- this will try a a 208 gr cast hp Keith .41 --they have in my limited experience done well

[Glen]

GLynn41 -- Yup you got it right.

I have shot several mule deer and several hogs with cast HPs and have been very pleased with the results. I just had an article published by JD Jones in HHI's The Sixgunner that summarized the results of cast HPs on 7 different hogs hunts. One of those bullets failed, the rest gave exemplary performance, expanding nicely and punching out the other side.

I have shot mule deer with cast HPs in .44s, .41s and a .338 T/C wildcat and have always had them expand beautifully and exit (i.e. I have never had a cast HP fail on deer). For my late season doe tag this year, I will be hunting with my Ruger .357 Maximum and it will be loaded with the 358627 208 grain HP, loaded over 19.0 grains of 4227 for about 1500 fps. I have every expectation that it will do a quick, clean job.

[357maximum]

I shot a whitetail doe last November I was not overly impressed.

358156HP Custom(FAT) AC50/50 WW/PB
Max Charge of 2400


The iron was my DanWesson 15 357maggie with the 4" iron sighted barrel installed. distance was 40 yards from an elevated position.

I hit her 2-3 inches too far forward and a bit lower than I wanted to which landed the boolit right in the middle of her front leg (just behind the bone)and about midpoint of the brisket. The boolit tore both legs and the brisket up alot worse than I intended.

Part of this was my fault (placement in dimming light with irons sights)(maybe a slight low left yank on the trigger?). I simply did not like the way that boolit tore the snot out of the meat. I will be using my 8in barrel with a scope on the same revolver this year...so I need a tougher boolit. I will be using 180grain BRP solids with a flat nose. If I had made that same shot with my 8in barrel I am truly fearful of what the extra velocity on that 40 yard shot and the HP would have caused....I doubt I would have had a "SURFACE BLOWUP" but the off shoulder would have been more jellified that it already was. She died a real quick spining death, but I lost alot of meat.

I put the HP's in because of the velocity loss in the 4in barrel, I was waaaay overthinking the whole scenario............I will stick to solids thank you.

[crazy mark]

2 does using the 311332 that I HP'd with a .110 HP. About 1900 FPS out of a 2 groove '03. First one hit on base of the neck about 50 yds away. Dropped and dead with-in 30 seconds. Bullet went all the way thru and tore up very little meat. 2nd doe hit in the lungs heart area about 100 yds away. Bullet had full penetration. No visible entrance wound and exit wound about the size of a nickle. Deer went about 20 yds before dying. Top of lungs looked like they had been put in a food processor. Heart had little damage. Only other deer hit using a HP was a nice spike using a BP 45 cal with a maxiball that was HP'd. That was soft lead 1300 FPS and it did a number on the ribs and Heart/Lungs. Mark

[Larry Gibson]

Cast HPs in rifles;

My first experience with deer and cast HPs was with a 311410HP out of a 30 Carbine. Velocity was in the neighborhood of 1700 fps. Alloy was Old WWs AC’d. Shot was about 40 yards on a nice black tail doe standing broadside. Bullet went through both shoulders and lungs. Doe ran perhaps 50 yards then piled up. Very little meat damage what so ever and appeared the bullet did not expand at all. Read the articles on alloys for hunting cast bullets in the NRA publications and tried those. Accuracy with the soft alloy and PB bullet was horrible over 1400 fps so I gave up on that bullet.

Next was a 311041HP (still have the mould) that I got in ’69. Began casting them with the softer alloy and sizing at .311 and was using a load of H4895 that gives right at 2000 fps out of a 20" barreled M94. Accuracy held very good for the first 7-8 shots which was fine for hunting. Killed several black tail bucks in Oregon with that bullet. On the first couple I found the nose invariably would expand and break off with the base giving complete penetration (side and raking shots). Meat damage as always about the same as the average 170 gr jacketed 30-30 bullet. Still I was not pleased with the performance. Tried some with no HP on a few ferule goats and they gave decent expansion and minimal meat damage but still not what I wanted. I then got the Forster HP tool (1/8”) and began to experiment with the HP depth. I found that with a soft ductile alloy that would expand nicely with minimal expansion petal sloughing when using a HP of not more than ½ - 2/3s of the nose length. That depth of HP was all that was needed for excellent expansion and weight retention. I shortened the HP stem on the 311041HP mould and have been happy with the expansion and killing power of the bullet since. After shortening the HP stem I shot several more black tail deer then moved to Eastern Oregon as an LEO. There I killed several mule deer, bucks and does, with that 311041HP loaded in 30-30, .308W and 30-06 all to about 2000-2100 fps. The results were all the same; quick kills with minimal meat damage comparable to what a 170 gr jacketed SP does. I rarely recovered any of the bullets as most were through and through shots. Of the ones that I did recover expansion was excellent and weight retention reasonable but not as good as with 170 gr jacketed bullets. However, the results on game were excellent so I stayed with that combination. I now cast them out of newer WWs and Lead at 50/50% which exhibits the same amount of expansion.

I tried a couple 457383 GC bullets of the same alloy that I HPd out of my Siamese 45-70 at 1850 fps on poor little mule deer but quite frankly it was overkill and meat damage was excessive. Heck, meat damage was excessive without the HP’d using that same load and bullet!

I’ve a very nice 323471HP mould that I’ve also killed several mule deer with using the same alloy at about the same velocity. Results were pretty much equal to those of the 311041HP including the need to shorten the HP stem for sufficient expansion and weight retention.

I have used my Forster tool to HP several cast bullet types loaded in the .35 Remington and the .358W for couple friends. They were also cast of softer alloys and the owners bought their own Forster HPing tools after their success on deer. I now have my own .35 Remington built on a M91 Mauser and HP the loaded RCBS 35-200-FN. Accuracy is very good up through 2100 fps and I’m probably going to shoot a pig this November and maybe a deer or two down Texas way with it.

I also have shot quite a few varmints (rock chucks, jack rabbits and coyotes along with the occasional badger) with HP’d cast bullets out of rifles. These were mostly with the 313631 or the 311316 HP’d with the Forster tool out of M94 30-30s or M1 Carbines in .30 Carbine. I cast them out of softer alloy or these days out of WWs + 2% tin. It is ok if the shatter a bit in varmints. I load both bullets to 1900-1950 fps out of the M94 and M1 Carbine and it is a deadly load on called in coyotes and when jump shooting jacks. I use the 257283 HP cast of recovered .22LR lead out of my Savage M23 25-20 and it is deadly on rock chucks and jacks.


In handguns;

My experience with HPs in handguns goes back to the mid ‘70s as a LEO. Not only did I hunt with a handgun but I also had a lot of opportunities to dispatch injured animals both of domestic variety and game animals. For some time I was of the opinion that a hard cast SWC was the way to go. I had the 429421 for my .44 Magnum and the 358429 for the .357 magnum so what more did I need? Well that was about the time Supervel had shown the light to the major ammo makers and everybody and their brother was coming out with light weight HP bullets that, for the most part, did expand and did increase terminal effectiveness of handgun ammunition. Sure enough the hard cast SWCs in the 357 and .44 were killing deer, etc but the fast stepping HPs were killing them quicker. Now dead is dead but the point is an animal can go a long ways if death doesn’t come quick. To some of us a quick death as fast as possible was desired for numerous reasons that are not germane to this topic. Thus the seemingly more terminally efficient HPs was the choice.

At that time I was enamored by the .41 magnum (still am for that matter) and was working with a 4 and a 6” barreled S&Ws. I had the older Lee 410-195-SWC and the Lyman 410610 GC SWC. I very quickly found the 410610 when cast soft from a 1-20 alloy or a 1-16 alloy and HP’d with the Forster HPing tool was every bit the efficient killer on deer and smaller critters that the 170 and 200 gr JHPs were. I also discovered that penetration was not a problem on deer sized animals. As a matter of fact I never recovered a single one of those bullets in a deer even after a couple had shot through the shoulders. Again though the HP never exceeded 2/3 of the length of the nose and exit holes all showed very good expansion had occurred. Meat loss was also minimal. Not knowing any better and “tired” of fooling with GCs I let a friend talk me into having the mould opened up to a PB’d bullet. That was a big mistake as I quickly found out that accuracy with the softer alloys at the velocity I was driving them (1400 fps out of the 6” barrel) was terrible. To get the same accuracy the alloy had to be harder and “hard cast” handgun bullets, even HP’d ones, do not expand. I had learned a valuable lesson: if you want expansion from magnum handgun cast bullets at magnum velocities they must be of a soft alloy and have a GC. My current 7 ½” barreled Bisley Ruger BH begs for the Lyman 410610 cast of 1-16 alloy and HP’d as mentioned. However the truth be known I hunt with 210 gr XTPs at 1450 fps out of it. That may be sacrilegious but they do a marvelous job on deer elk and pigs. I do shoot lots of the RCBS 41-210-SWC and the Lee TL410-210-SWC and the TL410-175-SWCs through it for fun and practice.

That was about the time back then that I picked up the 358156 mould for my .357 Ruger BH with 6.5” barrel. I cast those of 1-16 alloy, loaded them over true magnum loads (not excessive loads just magnum loads), HP’d them with the Forster HPing tool to 2/3 the nose length and clocked them at 1450 fps. They were quick death on deer and coyotes. Quite a few rock chucks met their demise to that load also. Jack rabbits were turned into ‘bits…a bit of ‘em goes here and a ‘bit of ’em goes there!

Followed that success up with a Lyman 429244 GC mould that I also cast soft and HP with the Forster tool. At 1400 fps out of my 6 ½” barreled Ruger BH it also is a deadly deer, elk, B Bear and pig killer. I expect that at close to 1600 fps out of my 8.4” barreled Contender or 1700+ fps out of a 20” lever gun that it also would be quite deadly on those critters.

I’ve also a Lyman 452490 SWC GC mould that actually casts a 240 gr bullet of recovered .22LR lead. These weigh in at 230 gr when HP’ed and shoot quite nicely at 830 fps out of a M1911. Out to 25 yards expansion is pretty impressive. At 1050 fps out of a S&W M25 with 6 ½” barrel expansion is quite positive. I dispatched some injured sheep (domestic), several injured deer and a couple injured elk with those loads and they were very efficient killers. On body shots the bullets always passed all the way through except on one elk where it went through the onside shoulder, the top of the heart, the lungs and lodged in the offside shoulder. Range of the shot was about 20 yards. The spike was already in pretty bad shape from being gut shot with an arrow so when he took the bullet he tried to move but went down instead and died in a few moments. The bullet was well expanded and pretty mangled and the GC was still on the base of the bullet though bent in half.

Conclusion;

I have shot quite a few animals with a variety of cast bullets in some 40+ years of shooting cast bullets on animals and game. The first and usually only crticism against the use of HPs is "lack of penetration". I have failed to find that to be the case in all my years using them. The key is to use a correct alloy and a GC. Deer, elk and B bears really do not require that much "penetration" given a side shot or even a reasonable raking shot to get the bullet into and through the vitals. Yes the hard cast RN bullets will kill. The hard cast FN bullets kill better. The soft cast FN bullets that expand kill even better. However, it is the HP cast GC’d bullet when cast of a proper alloy and used at a reasonable velocity out of either a rifle or a handgun that is the best and quickest killing cast bullet. It is always my first choice to hunt with.

Larry Gibson

[TDC]

Yes the hard cast RN bullets will kill. The hard cast FN bullets kill better. The soft cast FN bullets that expand and kill even better. However, it is the HP cast GC’d bullet when cast of a proper alloy and used at a reasonable velocity that is the best and quickest killing cast bullet. It is always my first choice.

Larry Gibson

WOW!!! Larry..... Great report with decades of experience to support it... I've gotta say that after many years of successful elk and bear hunting with cast HP bullets (.41 and .44 handgun) I've come to many of the same conclusions you have.

As expected, there is lots of varying opinions and viewpoints about cast HPs. I appreciate them all! I'm hoping to hear something from Lloyd Smeal as he and his friends have reported lots of experience with cast boolits used on buffalo and other thick skinned and heavy boned big game.

Like to hear from some Alaskans too....

TC

[Lloyd Smale]

ive had good and bad luck with them. Matching the alloy to the game is the big trick to them. Another thing that tends to really effect them is the caliber you start out with. Bigger is not better in this aspect. Ive seen 500 linebaughs fail miserably on bigger game and the same game shot with 44 mags with cast hps work well. I think that what is happening is the 500 starts out so big that when it expands its just to big to penetrate much at all. Bottom line is that if cast out of an appropriate alloy there at least as good as any jacketed hp bullet and because you can vary your alloy there a lot more versitile as a guy can match his alloy and rate of expansion to the game he is shooting. Alot of factory jacketed stuff is desinged for a certain size of an animal and a certain velocity and if you get out of that range you will either get a failure to expand or to much expansion.

[GLynn41]

i HAVE NOTICED A LOT OF GUYS use THE fOSTER CASE trimmer with the HP er-- it does work and well -- but now that I have a hp mold and up for another in a group buy I will using cast hp now- I still have no problems with my LWN as they certainly kill and kill well-- this is something different and new for me and it will do as well-- as Larry said dead is dead-- just how quick and how soon--

[gasboffer]

I've killed a lot of deer with a .35 Remington using Lyman 358156 HP. Started out hunting with the hollow-point. Didn't lose any deer, but they were mostly not clean kills. Switched to the 358156 solid and got a lot better clean kill ratio.
Clyde

[looseprojectile]

Years ago I ran a trap line, mostly beaver. Always had a .22 rifle loaded with hollow points with me. A .22 long rifle and the excellent .22 mag. hollow point always did their job well. Ate a lot of venison in those days. Shoot em between the eye and ear.
When you get to the larger calibers such as the .357 and .44 magnum at rifle speeds a hollow point is not needed if you start with a WFN and an alloy that works in your gun.
I have always tried for softer alloys with hollow points in my carry guns but I feel you don't need that much destruction for downing game humanely.
Ain't that what Larry said?

Life is good

[carpetman]

Looseprojectile---How can I determine if a fur hat is beaver or muskrat? There is no label.

[Bret4207]

I did a series of tests years ago when I lost a big Holstein heifer to hardware. The 358156 HP vs the solid version both gave impressive results out of my M-19 4" Smityh, but the HP also broke up and didn't penetrate through like the solid did. Alloy was WW pushed by Skeeters 13.5 2400. For comparison the 311316 solid out of a 32-20 rifle at 1500ish fps penetrated near twice the distance the HP did and left a wound channel a good 1" plus traveling a good 8" in and out. The 156HP gave a much larger wound at first and ended up being about 35 cal and stopping against the offside hide.

In truth it was about what I expected.

[TDC]

I think most everyone would agree there are many, many factors that influence the path as well as the performance of a cast hollow point bullet. As has been said, these boolits must be carefully "tuned" to the type hunting or self protection they will address. It's much more important than with solid boolits!

Considerations for the animal hunted must include hide thickness, bone thickness, muscle density and contact the boolit will make with those tissues that can make every difference in final performance. Another major factor I've found is the demeanor of the animal at the time it's shot. Is it pumped on adrenaline or standing completely unaware?

The important considerations for the hunter using cast HP's would be placement, alloy, boolit shape, velocity, HP cavity size and appropriate boolit wall thickness to control expansion and penetration. There has been some great advice on this thread from people who have had long term experience and knowledgeable results with cast hollow points...

My own experience with HP hunting spans 4 decades and has been exclusively with hand guns using both .41 and .44 mags. I've taken a number of mature bull elk and black bear, as well as many deer during that time frame. This year I'll be using a S&W 500 for the first time for elk in preparation for a moose and hopefully a grizzly hunt in Alaska next year. I was interested to hear boolit size has sometimes been a detriment for a .50 caliber and that caliber didn't perform as well as a .44 mag on at least one particular occasion.

Like many others on this board I'm anxiously awaiting two new "Cramer" type molds in both .44 and .50 mag. The .50 mold will include 3 different pin cavity sizes and perhaps a 4th in a 5 faceted shape. The huge (400 gr) .50 boolit provides such a perfect opportunity to experiment with various HP cavities and wall thicknesses These variations will offer a full range of potential applications in one mold!

Several of us are going to test different alloys in combination with those different cavity sizes. We hope to find the perfect combination of elements for both hunting or self defense usage.....

It's great to see so much interest in cast hollow point boolits... Some love 'um..... Some hate 'um ...... I believe your comments benefit all of us!!

Thanks!

Terry

[Bret4207]

Looseprojectile---How can I determine if a fur hat is beaver or muskrat? There is no label.

They just look different Ray. Rat is finer and tends to run a little shorter than Beaver. Beaver is a bit coarser and often lighter in color.