Frosted boolits

[stillwell]

i am new to casting and it seams that the only time my mould runs well is when it is HOT. the more i read on frosted boolits the more confused i get some say dont worry about it some say they should be smooth and shiny. is there a solid answer to my question????

[docone31]

Frosted is good.

[Matt_G]

Not a dang thing wrong with frosted boolits, IMHO.
If the mould has to be run hot to get good fillout, you really have no choice right?
Poor fillout is a much worse problem than some frosting on the boolits.
And that is assuming frosted is a problem, which I don't think it is.

I have several moulds that demand high temps, therefore frosted boolits.
They are every bit as accurate as unfrosted boolits.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[stillwell]

i have been using lee moulds mostly because of the price diff. from what i have read some of those all ways have to be run hot. i have noticed that when they get hot the sprue breaks after i cut it (when it hits the bench) i am conserned that the boolits may brittle

[Matt_G]

i have been using lee moulds mostly because of the price diff. from what i have read some of those all ways have to be run hot. i have noticed that when they get hot the sprue breaks after i cut it (when it hits the bench) i am conserned that the boolits may brittle

Temp has nothing to do with the sprue breaking when hitting the bench.
That is a function of the alloy.
What are you casting with?
WW's, linotype, monotype, unknown...?

Wait two seconds after the sprue has hardened before cutting, if you're not already.
Does the sprue still break when hitting the bench?

[zxcvbob]

Mmmmm.... Frosting.

~(_8^(1)

[oldhickory]

i have been using lee moulds mostly because of the price diff. from what i have read some of those all ways have to be run hot. i have noticed that when they get hot the sprue breaks after i cut it (when it hits the bench) i am conserned that the boolits may brittle

Sounds like maybe you're not letting it cool quite enough before you cut the sprue. Look at the base of the boolit after you swing the plate, it should be a nice clean shear with no "pitting" like you broke the sprue off. Simple fix, just let it cool a little longer before opening the mold and you'll get a nice clean cut and a sprue that will bend rather than break.

[stillwell]

i am using ww's with about 1ft of 95% tin solder. i cut the sprue just after it turns a darker color 2-4 sec

[WILCO]

Frosted is good.

Indeed!!!!

[Matt_G]

i am using ww's with about 1ft of 95% tin solder. i cut the sprue just after it turns a darker color 2-4 sec

Once the sprue has quit changing color, wait another 2 seconds, then cut it.
I bet you've been cutting it a tad too early. :)

[stillwell]

i am gathering that it dont make abit of diff if they are fosted or not

[Gunslinger]

I sometimes use the Bruce Lee speed-casting technique, there I also get frostet boolits. At first I was a little unsatisfied about that, but as time went on I found out that they shoot just as good... the only difference between frosted and un-frosted boolits is cosmetics... which I absolutely do not care about anymore. I shoot too much to be picky about this.

[bedwards]

I get them most with my Lee moulds because I have to run them hot, but what is the frosting on the boolits?


be

[zxcvbob]

i am gathering that it dont make abit of diff if they are fosted or not That is correct. And if you tumble-lube the bullets (Lee Liquid Alox, Rooster Jacket, White Label XLOX, melted Johnsons Paste Wax, etc) the lube should stick better.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

+2 to zxcv on his response. First of all the frosting has absolutely no effect on accuracy whatsoever. Its totally a cosmetic hangup/myth. If it bothers you or whoever is shooting next to you then you can also get some #0000 steel wool and a couple of swipes/turns will remove the frosting; the bullets will be bright and shiny and everyone can then relax. LLS

[wallenba]

i am new to casting and it seams that the only time my mould runs well is when it is HOT. the more i read on frosted boolits the more confused i get some say dont worry about it some say they should be smooth and shiny. is there a solid answer to my question????

Frosty is fine especially if you are tumble lubing.

[Wayne Smith]

Get you a small sponge or towel, soak it, and cool the sprue plate on it before cutting your sprue. This will cool and harden the sprue and boolit base. That way you can continue to work at the same pace with good bases. Don't worry about the frosting, boolits won't make you fat!

[azcoyhunter]

I personally love my boolits to be frosted.

I feel that the LLA seems to stick better.

[vincewarde]

I too use the Lee stuff (pot, molds and size dies), mostly because of cost. I'm new at this, but by following the directions I have been able to cast some pretty good boolits! I like the fact that if I preheat the mold the first pour is a usable boolit.

I have also found that the Lee aluminum molds actually cool pretty fast. I know I could use a sponge to speed things up, but while simply trying to increase ventilation, I found that a box fan on high, aimed at my work area from about 8 feet away, enables me to increase my casting past significantly. The other day, I cranked out over 400 boolits from a two cavity mold in an hour and a half. Well over 99% were usable. Not bad for a newbie like me (thanks to all here for helping me to learn so much!).

As far as heat and frosting, I have used Linotype and WW alloys and while I have encountered frosting, I have found that I also get good results at temperatures a bit lower that don't produce frosting.

[AZ-Stew]

Even frosting (dull gray appearance) all over the boolit works with some alloys, such as straight wheel weights. Uneven frosting FREQUENTLY indicates areas of the boolit surface that are recessed from the remainder of the boolit surface. This condition is NOT good.

If you cast PURE lead for muzzle loaders, you WILL get shiny boolits, be they round balls or Minie/Maxi styles. Doesn't matter how hot you run your system, as long as it's hot enough to eliminate wrinkles. The result will be shiny projectiles.

If you cast from PURE linotype, you WILL get shiny boolits and excellent fill-out due to the high level of Tin in the alloy. And you can do this at relatively low casting temperature. If you get frosting with linotype, you're running too hot. Slow your cycle rate or lower the pot temp. Intentionally frosting pure linotype boolits, if it can be done, is a waste of heat, in my opinion.

A shiny boolit doesn't mean anything, good or bad, if the alloy isn't taken into account. Neither does maximum frost, created by excessive heat. Shiny boolits can be completely filled out and have VERY consistent weight. Very frosty or partially frosty boolits can be incompletely filled out and have inconsistent weight. Again, it depends on the alloy.

For those who cling to the misconception that those of us who prefer something less than a full crystallization of the alloy are only interested in cosmetics, I challenge you to cast pure lead or linotype and come up with good boolits that are full-frost. "Shiny" isn't a cosmetic value. It is solely related to casting temp with respect to the alloy used. I prefer my boolits to be as near "shiny" as possible, assuming good fill-out. I get good results from them. Doesn't have ANYTHING to do with looks. I don't give a CRAP what the guy at the next bench thinks of the LOOKS of my handloads. It's simply an indication of proper casting temperature, depending on the alloy used. YMMV.

Regards,

Stew

[AZ-Stew]

...what is the frosting on the boolits?

The frosting isn't ON the boolit, it's IN the boolit. What you're seeing is the crystalline structure of the cooled alloy. The hotter the casting (depending on alloy), the larger the crystals in the cooled boolit. Shiny boolits also have a crystalline structure, you just need a microscope to see it.

Regards,

Stew

[Edubya]

I'm having troubles with seeing inside of the lead with my microscope. I have even dissected some of them to verify the above information. I guess the blade smears them and I can't find any that are crystallized inside.
Since lead is such a poor conductor of heat, I suspect that the surface is the only area that would crystallize. I have shot and recovered many frosted bullets and have not found them to be any different.
You are allowed your opinion, but please, give us some references or state the fact that your statement is your opinion.

[AZ-Stew]

All metals, in their solid state, have a crystalline structure of some sort throughout.

I work for a major electronics manufacturer. The link below will give you an idea of what we do on occasion.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=163880&postcount=12

In use, the small slugs shown are sectioned and polished, then some method (I'm not involved in the procedure, but I suspect a chemical etching of some sort) is used to determine the number of crystals in the small center section when viewed under a microscope. Sometimes they want single crystals, sometimes multiple. This is controlled by varying the temperature of the alloy and the mould.

You are correct that the tool used to cut your boolits is smearing the crystals. As I said, you'd have to polish, then etch the surface to see the crystaline structure. Or you can take my word for it that the external structure is similar to the internal structure.

Regards,

Stew

[felix]

Stew, is the tin solder denatured enough as not to grow spikes? ... felix

[AZ-Stew]

Felix,

That issue is well known in the industry and has been dealt with in our processes, but thanks for asking.

Regards,

Stew

[thenaaks]

frosty...makes me want to go to wendy's!

does the frosting affect the bullet at impact? is it more "fragile" or still soft and malleable?

[zxcvbob]

If you cast from PURE linotype, you WILL get shiny boolits and excellent fill-out due to the high level of Tin in the alloy. And you can do this at relatively low casting temperature. If you get frosting with linotype, you're running too hot. Slow your cycle rate or lower the pot temp. Intentionally frosting pure linotype boolits, if it can be done, is a waste of heat, in my opinion.Do ya think maybe it has something to do with the fact that linotype is a eutectic alloy? (most of the alloys we work with are not; the only other common one is pure Pb)

[stillwell]

frosty...makes me want to go to wendy's!

does the frosting affect the bullet at impact? is it more "fragile" or still soft and malleable?

looking for the same clear answer [smilie=b:

[Edubya]

looking for the same clear answer [smilie=b:

How about you trying it out? If you cast, you'll have a couple of frosted bullets in your mix. Load them up, also load up a few of those perfect looking bullets with the same powder charge and primers. Shoot them into water, recover and examine them.
I even went so far as to buy 12 one gallon jugs of bottled water for my experiment. I turned up the heat to make sure they were real frosted, and shot the the 147 gr, 9mm bullets at approximately 1000 fps. I wish that I had some pictures; the 4 bullets were not the exact same but you would never be able to guess which ones started off frosted, and they all expanded very nicely.
EW

[stillwell]

i have been loading them all and watching for any change in accuracy. so far i have seen none. i was mostly wondering about the crystalline structure az-stew talked about

[243winxb]

http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/home/
Q: How can I tell if my mould blocks are too cold or too hot?
A: If the bullets are dropping out wrinkled, they are too cool. If the bullets have a frosted appearance, the mould is too hot. To hot a mould , with frosting will drop a bullet that is undersize by a small amount. The hotter the alloy/mould, the more the alloy shrinks on cooling in the mould. If bullets are dropping at the correct diameter, dont worry about the frosting.

[243winxb]

Frosted Bullets coming out the molds

Frosted bullets are generally a sign that the mold is too hot. Let the mold cool for minute or two with the blocks open and sprue plate open. You may also want to lower the temperature of the pot. Once you reach a spot where you are seeing wrinkled bullets, you have gone too far. Slightly adjust back to a hotter temperature and you should have achieved the prime temperature setting for your pot.

Frosted bullets cause no problem when shooting so it is not necessary to discard them back into the pot. In fact, frosted bullets tend to cause the Liquid Alox to adhere even better which is very desirable, especially for bullets meant to be shot at higher velocities. But he didnt say frosted bullets drop at a smaller diameter, he should. :smile:

[243winxb]

i was mostly wondering about the crystalline structure az-stew talked about The structure changes when water dropped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_boundary_strengthening .

[Bret4207]

Here's my take on it- The main thing we have to be concerned about is making as perfect a boolit as possible. Some moulds tend to need a bit more heat than others. Sometimes that means the boolit will be frosted. As long as the boolit is filled out as completely as possible and the base is square and sharp who cares if it's frosted? Yes, they say that a frosted boolit can be slightly smaller. That's only a problem if the mould is boderline diameter to start with. I have mics reading to .0001 and haven't seen it happen-yet. The variation from one boolit to another can be upwards of half a thou even in a single cavity. In a 6 cavity you'll get that much on a regular basis if you check it.

My experiments show NO difference in expansion, ductility, penetration or accuracy with shiny and frosted boolits. Fire them side by side and I doubt you'd be able to tell the difference either. If the frosted appearance bothers anyone a quick swipe with 4/0 steel wool will leave a frosted boolit shiny.

[Bret4207]

The structure changes when water dropped. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_boundary_strengthening The tin in the alloy forms a protective structure in a lead , antimony, tin alloy, keeping the barrel from leading when air cooling bullets.

Either that Wikipedia entry is worded poorly or the author is reaching conclusions based on supposition. It sounds like his description is opposite or at least differs from other explanations I've seen describing the lead/tin/ antimony solution.

[243winxb]

The tin in the alloy forms a protective structure in a lead , antimony, tin alloy, keeping the barrel from leading when air cooling bullets.> From Lyman>
While antimony is used to harden the bullet, the mixture of tin is critical, for while antimony mixes with lead in its molten state, it will not remain mixed when it solidifies. If tin were not added, we would have pure antimony crystals surrounded by pure lead. A bullet of this type , while it feels hard , would certainly lead the bore and eliminate all potential for accuracy.. In a lead-tin-antimony mixture, the antimony crystals will be present just the same, but they will be imbedded in a lead-tin mixutre. As the bullet cools the tin will form around the antimony-lead keeping your bullets from leading the bore.

[Bret4207]

I will try to remember to find the articles in Handloader by Dennis Marshal that giver a better ans somewhat different explanation of how the alloys bond.

[theperfessor]

My Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (3rd Ed.) has a good article by Dennis Marshall titled "Metallurgy of Molten Lead Alloys". This article plus some others in this book should be required reading for all new casters.