Patching for the 22 Hornet

[303Guy]

I have taken my little hornet out of hybernation! It took down a few turkey yesterday (with J-words) and the suppressor is nice and quiet.

So now for paper patching for it. I have been experimenting with molds, swage dies sizing dies and have perfected the technique for converting a twist drill bit into a reamer. (A 5.5mm drill bit produced a 5.52mm die after polishing).

I have made a base pour push-out mold that drops at 59gr that is a whole 1mm (.04") shorter than the 55gr spire point J-word that the hornet shoots so well. The patched size is 5.75mm (.226") for a .223 nominal groove. That size fits the throat, or should I say, enters the bore. I intend to drive these boolits to 2650~2700fps - quite do-able with Lil'Gun and RP cases.

(I have also made a 61gr mold for plain cast)

Needless to say, input from the team is always welcomed!:drinks:

The as cast core
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-328F.jpg

The sized core
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-329F.jpg

Patched 59gr 22 Hornet Boolit
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-323F.jpg

[BCall]

Anxious to see your results, in particular with the heavier 61 gr. I have been wanting to try a heavier 22 cal for some time, but have been unable to find a mold as of yet. Only one I have that casts over 60 gr is the Lyman 225646, which I have not been able to shoot very well as of yet. Those front lube grooves on it are hard to get complete fill out. I was shooting my hornet yesterday with some 225415 hollow points. With a decent charge of Lil gun, they will absolutely vaporize a crow. Accuracy hasn't been exceptional, but good enough to get the job done. Thanks, Billy

[303Guy]

I have previously tried RCBS 22-055-FP boolits, with and without the gas check but accuracy was not exciting at all! I might size and patch some of those boolits and see how they perform.

I do believe that the 1-in-16 twist of the hornet will stabilize a boolit of 7.7mm length but that would need to be a bore-rider to chamber without robbing precious powder space. I have successfully used 60gr Hornady spire-points in it.

My new boolit is a semi-point and is therefore shorter than the 55gr spire-point. It will fit the case neck perfectly with just enough protrusion to touch the leade. To get more weight with patched, all that is required is a longer core with the patch the same distance from the boolit base. I'm not sure about a two-diameter sizer die![smilie=1:

[Zeek]

. . . . I'm not sure about a two-diameter sizer die![smilie=1:
Abolutely LOVELY work, 303Guy! Please keep us appraised of the results on-target and on game.

Regarding the two-diameter sizing, let me tell you that it CAN be done and that it works very nicely. I used to make and sell a die-set to do that called the Coaxisizer Die. They would size-down or expand up both the nose (to its respective diameter) and the band section (to its). They worked in a reloading press. The nose and band portions of the Coaxisizer were connected with a 3-degree included angle cone, which (for 30 caliber at least) matched the leade cone angle for a coaxial "cone-in-cone fit."

They were neat and many CBA members bought one. However, I am no longer "in the business" and now have a lathe that is too small to make such tools. One top punch (of the set) would auto-conform to the boolit's existing point form, and the other would transmogrify the point to a truncated-cone with a meplat of 1/2 the caliber's cross sectional area. At any rate, it CAN be done and they DO work!

They used a light tap of a rawhide mallet to "upset" the bullet as needed (for the "bump-up"), with the ram raised over-center, whereas the size-down work (if needed) was done on the press ram's upstroke. Ejection (using either top punch) was done with that same mallet but with the base punch lowered.

You would even "move back" the front drive band, if desired, by lowering the die (in its threads) past the point where die's inter-cone area matched the front of the boolit's drive bands.

I'd much rather do ballistic experimentation, though. I have no intention of ever getting trapped "making chips" again ~~> BTDT!! Like the wise man said, "Life should be fun, and is supposed to beat the alternative!"
Regards, Zeek

[1874Sharps]

303Guy,

Wahoo, looks like another interesting project you are up to! I roll my own 45 and 30 caliber PP boolits and have a hard enough time with the 30 caliber patches in my fat little fingers. How do you manage rolling those little 22s? Let us know how they shoot at the range!

[303Guy]

Thanks guys! Yup, those tiny little beasties are just that - tiny! The parallel boolit does help but I must say I had difficulty just picking up the flippin wet patch! Like picking up primers isn't bad enough.:mrgreen:

Zeek, thanks for the encouragement. What makes it so difficult is the lack of DRO and the right tooling. (I will get there!) I have visions of making oddball molds and things as a sideline. I also have a rather neat muzzlebreak that also reduces muzzle blast, that I would like to make.

[barrabruce]

303 guy I got a khornet with I think 1:14-16 twist but it don't seem to like j projos over 45 grns.I get about 1'-3/4" groups at 100yrds.
I have tried larger bulllets gut it never seemed to group well at all. :(
Let us know how the pp's go.

Barra

[303Guy]

Barrabruce, Sierra make stubby point J-words suitable for the hornet

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/1350.gifSierra 55gr 1350

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/1320.gifSierra 50gr 1320

I used 50gr Blitz with great success with AR2205.

I have sorta tried to achieve the shape of the 1350 for my patched boolits but a bit stubbier at the nose and thinner in the body.

[BABore]

Kind of a dumb question, but why PP the Hornet over normal cast boolits, other than the dexterity exercise?

[303Guy]

To make me appreciate each shot more!:mrgreen:

I guess when it comes down to it, if the plain cast will shoot the same then the extra effort is not worth it but so far I have not had much success with plain cast. I have made a mold for both plain and PP for it. I have also made a sizer for both plain and PP core sizing.

There is also the challange and the fun factor.:Fire:

Then there is the self cleaning factor. If I were to go out for the day and the bore started to foul with cast, I would be in trouble so I would then have to carry cleaning stuff with me.

But believe it or not, once one gets the hang of it, it can be done quite easily.

Ah! Don't forget the higher velocity attainable with PP. (Although I see some awsome velocity and accuracy claims for plain cast - although we don't know how the tests were conducted. Did they take the three shot group out of six or the worst ten shot group for the day. I reason that the worst shot is the one that has to hit that distant magpie:roll:).

:drinks:

[BABore]

The reason I asked was that I picked up my first Hornet a couple months ago. It's a Browning Micro Hunter with a 1 in 16 twist. I tried some borrowed cast and started quite low as I didn't know what to expect. Very dissmal accuracy until I pushed it hard. Made me get up the gumption to try to make a cherry and mold that small. I'm just wringing out the final bugs in the cherry and intend to offer molds in the near future. It's a 0.226 dia., 47 gr GC design (226-47GC). I've been testing it out for the last few weeks. Don't know if it's the rifle, boolit, or the nature of these little guys, but I've not had a problem making it shoot.

Target #3 was shot in the fog. I could just make out the diamond points. Targets #4 & #5 were shot later when a crosswind blew the fog off. It was about 5-10 mph and gusty. Used a 7x scope for these. Still got some work to do with my sizing. These loads were collet neck sized with a Lee die. I noticed the neck tension was real light on a few as compared to a FL size die. The neck OD was 0.0025 bigger with the collet die. Anyway, I didn't chrono these yet, but most Hornet users will know where 12.7-12.9 grs of LilGun will get them with a 47 grain boolit. With jacketed, this gun will do 5/8 to 3/4" 5-shot groups. With cast, 5-shot groups are right around an inch and creeping under as I get my load technique down.

[StarMetal]

I didn't know Browning made a Micro Hunter shotgun.:coffee:

Joe[smilie=s:

[303Guy]

My rifle would shoot oblong groups ranging from vertical to horizontal. n the end I realized the wind was changing on the range which was at the end of a gully. In calm conditions it would shoot .5 MOA with maybe one or two group spoilers. The wind would pick up down-range very suddenly and not be noticeable at the benches! I don't remember that being the case with the group I have before me but out of 6 shots, 4 were at .4 MOA and 2 were wild at 1.5 MOA, so ... ? On windy days the groups were wild.

BABore, what I found was that Lil'Gun liked heavier bullets in the hornet with heavier loads - made it burn consistantly. (I did not crimp or size the necks). It would be interesting to see how those same boolits perform on top of a 'normal' powder - Lil'Gun being weired stuff!

[windrider919]

Hi guy,

If you remember I got some very good groups from my 221 Fireball with PP. Still playing with different powders. But I did find that the best depth of seating was with the base of the bullet in the case neck, but never more than the start of the shoulder. If any of the sides of the PP are exposed inside the case I get NO accuracy at all. My theory is that it damages the paper riding surface although I still did not get any leading on those seated deep like that. Since my rifle has a short throat that limits the bullet length if the nose is not a bore rider. So my smaller pills shot better (remember the thread n pic?)?

As per velocity, with my 12" twist the groups are tighting up till 2400FPS then open back up again. Nothing like that 5/8" group but most are 3/4" to 1" 5 shot groups @ 100 yds.

How about some pic of your mould?

[windrider919]

Bcall - of all the moulds listed at the bottom of your post, which have you found to be the most accurate/versatile?

Also - recently I shot some 225646 and got poor accuracy, did a thread in regular cast bullets forum about that. But last week I got sent some modified by removing the nose grease groove from the mould. They shoot 2" instead of 6". Frank told me that he did it with a Dremel tool because he could not get the top grease grooves to fill out either.

BABore - I looked at your pic of the mould and bullets you are developing and if you can get it to shoot let me know and I will buy a mould. Very professional machining on the prototype. PP is good but I want to have a good GG/GC bullet too.

[303Guy]

How about some pic of your mould? It is still in the building stages. It's supposed to get handles and ejector and sprue cutter and is to have interchangeable mold bodies for patch cores, 22 LR cores and plain cast. I'll get some picks as soon as I start work on it again.

The 221 Fireball seems to behave differently to the hornet with Lil'Gun. Even with the k-hornet. (That's not from personel experience, just the loading charts - the ones that give pressures).

BABore, it's interesting how the group changes shape as the powder charge changes. It goes from a vertical spread to a horizontal spread with a more or less round spread in the middle but the POI does not change. Nine shot groups are quite an 'honest' indication. I got similar effects with my hornet but could not rule out wind effects. I think my groups tightened up when I fitted the supressor. It's time I took my rifles back to the range for bench testing!

[Bullshop]

I predict that patching 22's will be a short lived episode in the learning curve. But hay what do I know. Ever get your finger caught in the press? OOOWWCH!!! Man that hurts!!!
BIC/BS

[303Guy]

Ever get your finger caught in the press?Once or twice! The once, I got my finger caught between the case mouth and the seat die and I instinctively jerked both hands away. Too bad the other hand was on the press handle!:holysheep


I predict that patching 22's will be a short lived episode in the learning curve.Very possible. But, if I can get them to shoot good, it could be longer lasting. But then, my swaged 22 LR bullets could rule (plain cast would be the easiest). As Long as I don't have to buy J-words!

[Bullshop]

The fact that your actually patching 22's puts you in a small group of folks that are doers and not talkers.
An old friend used to tell me, "a man of words and not of deeds is like a garden full of weeds".We seem to have grown into a sociaty of men of words (sheep) and few of deeds (leaders). Carry on !
Ouch I bet that made a nasty cut!
The 22 cal bullet swaged from RF brass when properly annealed with its thin soft jacket material is ideally suited to the small 22's like the hornet and bee. Same idea as the Hornady SX and Siear blitz line. They make the smaller 22's act like bigger ones. They are perfect in my 22 CCM. I was not meaning to discourage you but just the oposite, do, learn, share!
BIC/BS

[303Guy]

Right, worked on my mold a bit today. I tried to change the cooling characteristcs of the mold to prevent pemature freezing of the base shank. A curious thing happened - the boolit grew longer! It's as though the contracting mold swages the casting. Anyway, here are the bits.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-334F.jpg

It's a base pour, hollow point which is not going to be a mass production success! A split mold is now being planned unless I impress the hollow in the point separately or find a way of using the hollow point forming pin as an ejector rod. Mmmm...

[longbow]

303guy:

That is exactly what I do ~ the nose form is the ejector or the ejector pin is the hollow pointer. Works well.

However, the smallest mould I have made is .30 cal.

If you want to make a sliding nose form with integral hollow pointer for .22 it should work using a piece of 1/4" rod turned down to .223"/.224" with final size a sliding fit in the cavity, forn the nose shape, drill for your hollow point pin which you would likely have to press in due to size, then turn the shank to 3/16" and thread 10-24UNC for a retaining nut.

I have made them from .30 cal to 12 ga. that way.

Longbow

[303Guy]

Thanks, Longbow.

I should put together a sketch of what I am up to and run it past you. The concept does not allow for adjustable weight molds. It's intended for casting speed.

So far I have the form and weight issue where I think they should be although I might opt for a lighter boolit. 61grs does seem a little heavy for a hornet.

The casting I made before I removed material from the mold, just dropped out.

[6.5 mike]

303 Guy, you do come up with some great ideas. Between you & healthyd you've got me wanting to try " mold making". I don't have the tools, but a fella I know about a mile from the house does. Think I'll start with a 200 gr. 30 cal paper patch for the hiwall.
Are you rolling these, or using your paper sleaves? I though that was a good idea for real small diameter boolits. Do you set up nites thinking this stuff up?

[303Guy]

Thanks. :mrgreen: I get ideas from you folks! Often unrelated to what was being said. I'm somewhat of an Aspy and get locked onto a train of thought then all other odd sourced inputs get translated into ideas. I am also ADD so many ideas get don't get followed through. I've seen some of my bright ideas becoming commercially successful and I didn't follow through them through! Oh well , that happens to many of us, I'm sure. The important thing is I am having fun!:drinks:

[6.5 mike]

As long as you're having fun I figure that's all that counts. I know I enjoy your posts & pics.
Your 61 gr. mold might work in a .223 better then the hornet. I'm shooting a 64 gr. in my 77M II & it likes them better then the 55s. Just a though. It has a 21 in. lite barrel & that's the best bullet I've found for it. Bad thing is "j" word pills.