.45 ACP loading question

[AZMark]

Is there a load for .45 ACP that will come close to duplicating the muzzle energy of a standard pressure 250 gr. .45 Colt load that won't blow up a 1911? I asked this question on another forum, and was basically told I was nuts. Is this too much to ask of the .45 ACP and the 1911?

[dsmjon]

I think you'll find several loads for 250gr ACP slugs on here. Search for bowling pins and you'll likely get the hits. There was some discussion about this last week.

Last time I went to the range I was shooting 252gr HP .452's over (IIRC) 5.7 or 5.8gr Unique. I didn't bother with a chrono, but they shot very nicely with no signs of over pressure.

Do you have a particular goal for a 250gr slug out of an ACP?

[Dale53]

The problem with a heavy bullet in the 1911 platform is that it is regulated for a 230 gr bullet at 830 fps. You will need a heavier recoil spring and you can have feeding problems. A recoil buffer might help. Basically, it will be hard on the 1911 and you could end up with a cracked slide, etc.

If you want to shoot heavy for the cartridge bullets in the .45 ACP I would suggest a 625 chambered for .45 ACP. Then, using .45 Auto Rim cases (to keep the heavy bulleted loads from your 1911) you can safely drive the Lyman 452424 to .45 Colt factory velocities.

A quality compromise is to obtain a Lyman 452423 mould (240 grs) and load that to about 800-850 fps in your 1911. If they will feed in your 1911 that will not hurt your pistol and is quite a good load (they feed in mine). An 18 lb sping would be a good idea along with a recoil buffer. Keep in mind that Lyman no longer offers that mould and you will have to hunt for one at the local gunshows or online. A custom mould is a possibility (we have had a GB or two on this design), also.

FWIW
Dale53

[AZMark]

If it were possible to get 900 fps with a 250 gr bullet, that would be ideal. I'd really like to try to get 400 ft/lbs of energy out of it. Maybe a smaller bullet at higher velocity? I want to have as much penetration as possible for use against predators if necessary.

[softpoint]

I've converted a couple of .45 auto's over to .45 Super. Basically ,a shock buff, heavier spring ,use of .45 Super brass. A spring assist guide rod doesn't hurt, either. We played with springs up to 28lb. You can get 32lb. springs! Some of those springs will create coil bind, and have to be shortened. I have since abandoned that cartridge for use in the 1911 platform as I do think it is hard on pistols. (I shoot hundreds of them in my 625's) An even more potent conversion is the .460 Rowland. It uses different brass,too, and MUST be used with a compensator to slow down the slide. Again, too hard on pistols,IMHO. You could probably get away with a good many of these hotrod loads without damaging your gun, BUT, your pistol won't last nearly as long as it would without using them.IMHO. The 452423 mold mentioned is a good choice, I have one, it actually throws a boolit of about 245 grains out of my alloy. It is short enough to use in the acp without sacrificing too much case capacity. It was actually designed for the ACP/auto rim.
Personally, I wouldn't go over a 20 lb spring. Install a shock buff, start with a slow burning powder, work up gradually, inspect the buff every time you increase your load, when it starts to imprint the buffer anything over just a small "line" ,back off. :coffeecom

[AZMark]

I looked around at some factory loads from Remington, Winchester, and Federal. They list some loads with lighter bullets being pushed faster, all loaded with self-defense hollowpoints, that reach the ME figures I wanted. My question with this is: with smaller cast bullets at higher velocity, will penetration suffer? I ask this because of the occasional appearance of large predators (even a black bear once) at our place in the country. I know the standard FMJ 230 gr. round will penetrate a lot, but what kind of damage will it really do?

[dsmjon]

Mark, you might want to look into Clark Custom's .460 Rowland conversion. Not trying to start the 45super/460 argument....

I think they're getting less than $300 for all of the conversion parts, but they will only sell it to you for a select number of 1911 manufacturers. IIRC, you can push a 250gr slug to near 1k FPS with the 460.

I soon as I can get myself out of these forums long enough to save the money, I will be converting my Colt series 80 to a .460. Starline brass is cheap, and uses 45ACP boolits, dies, etc.

<edit> I just saw Softpoint beat me to the 460 idea.

[Pepe Ray]

AZMark;
Your question re. kinetic energy is well founded. KE is the biggest lie in the shooting/hunting arena.
I can feel myself slipping into a rant here and I will not!!!
Divest yourself of any notion of using KE as a guide for choosing ANY load for ANYTHING.
You've received some great advice here, don't screw it all up buy talking KE
It is obvious that you want penetration and high sectional density in ANY cartridge is the answer to achieve that.
I'm stopping here before I loose all control.
Pepe Ray

[Dale53]

Pepe Ray is correct. Just get a heavy bullet with a good wide meplat (the Keith 452423, as I said before, is ideal for your purposes. It will shoot through a black bear or equivalent and will let a lot of blood out and a lot of daylight in. You can hardly do better from a 1911.

I would take on any black bear around with my 5" 625-6 with this bullet at 900-1000 fps without any qualms at all. You can take THAT to the bank. My new NOE mould (452424 clone) will be here in a week or so, "God willin' and the creeks don't rise" and should do all I need with the .45 Auto Rim.

Dale53

[35remington]

AZ, see my response in the 1911 forum under another username. You'll find it's to the point.

Due to deep seating, forget 250 grain 45 Colt duplication velocities in the 45 ACP. Exceeding 400 ft/lbs. is easily possibly with lighter bullets. I trust that will be sufficient.

[AZMark]

I didn't think a Keith bullet would feed in a 1911...

[Pepe Ray]

Feeding in a 1911 configured FA can be 'smithed.
Some will feed, some will never feed ,most can be 'smithed to feed.
BUT
it does not matter cause you don't HAVE to have a Kieth.
A 45BD (wide flat RN) at 235+ gr. will feed easily and give you all the "slap" and "punch" that ANY Kieth will (within the same weight range +/-)
If you wish to be inflexible and find the 'mystique' of the Kieth legend then so be it. I've been there. Loved the old codger and respected him. But his protege Ross Seyfried even said in print that Elmer's design had been surpassed by the LBT designs. (Please, lets don't argue over the origin of the WFN designs, it's NOT germane to the discussion.)
So, pursue the Keith mystique if you must but do so being aware that there is an easier way to achieve penetration and slap.
Good luck
Pepe Ray

[crabo]

The BD45 would be my choice with a good load of Unique. Maybe someone would sell you their mold, but not me.

[Char-Gar]

If you want to drive a bigger nail, get a bigger hammer.

[AZMark]

Feeding in a 1911 configured FA can be 'smithed.
Some will feed, some will never feed ,most can be 'smithed to feed.
BUT
it does not matter cause you don't HAVE to have a Kieth.
A 45BD (wide flat RN) at 235+ gr. will feed easily and give you all the "slap" and "punch" that ANY Kieth will (within the same weight range +/-)
If you wish to be inflexible and find the 'mystique' of the Kieth legend then so be it. I've been there. Loved the old codger and respected him. But his protege Ross Seyfried even said in print that Elmer's design had been surpassed by the LBT designs. (Please, lets don't argue over the origin of the WFN designs, it's NOT germane to the discussion.)
So, pursue the Keith mystique if you must but do so being aware that there is an easier way to achieve penetration and slap.
Good luck
Pepe Ray

Man, I just want to use what works. I remember hearing once that Jeff Cooper was a proponent of a flatnosed FMJ...I reckon he knew a thing or two.

[JIMinPHX]

1911 feeding can be improved more than you might believe by changing to a magazine with wadcutter lips. I posted pictures of one here on the board a while back. I'll see if I can find the old post.

Edit:
Found it. Post #5 -
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=42221&highlight=wadcutter

[softpoint]

You can make a 1911 feed anything, including empty cases if you slick up the ramp a bit and use good magazines , might have to tweak the magazine lips a bit.:Fire:

[Gray Fox]

Wasn't it Jeff Cooper who was a big fan of the jacketed truncated cone 230 with its flat nose?
The Lee cast copy in either standard or TL should be pretty close to optimum in that weight range, feeds well, and can be driven pretty fast with current powders in sound 1911s or current 625s. Anyone care to comment about this boolit?

[zxcvbob]

Wasn't it Jeff Cooper who was a big fan of the jacketed truncated cone 230 with its flat nose? The Lee cast copy in either standard or TL should be pretty close to optimum in that weight range, feeds well, and can be driven pretty fast with current powders in sound 1911s or current 625s. Anyone care to comment about this boolit?

I shoot that boolit, the tumble-lubed version, in .45 Colt loaded to about 1075 fps. That's my favorite plinking load. It should be *very* nice in .45ACP at about 900+ fps.

[35remington]

Don't try 7.6 of Herco with that bullet!

This exceeds all loading manual norms, and will produce well in excess of 1000 fps with such a load. I have far more experience with that bullet and Herco in the 45 ACP than the poster above; there's a good reason I counsel not going there.

Beware of guesses from poorly informed sources.

zx, not meaning to be offensive. Just warning that your suggestion is ill advised for the automatic pistol.

[TAWILDCATT]

I have a 1911 that will feed empties from the mag.and nothing has been done to my $6.99 mags.normaly I shoot SWC.as defence loads you would not want to be hit in the head with one.and I use 3.6 gr of 700X.its good to 50 yds in compitition.
:coffee:

[zxcvbob]

zx, not meaning to be offensive. Just warning that your suggestion is ill advised for the automatic pistol. No offense taken; I used Quickload to generate a list of the top powders (sorted by velocity) for that bullet in .45ACP at a pressure of 20000, and Herco came out near the top at 7.6 grains (cartridge length == 1.275") You're right, I'm a revolver shooter and don't have a lot of experience with automatics and assumed the posters asking about high-performance loads had the extra-strong springs to handle it. And if the boolit is seated .075" deeper, the pressure jumps to a dangerous 27500 psi.

I've removed the Herco data that I probably shouldn't have posted in the first place. My apologies to the group for leaving out the overall length, which is a critical measurement here. Thanks 35R for catching it.

It's still a great boolit. :)

[35remington]

Thanks for understanding my concern zx and yep, agreed, it's a great bullet. Standard seating depth is usually around 1.200 to 1.220" or thereabouts. Due to this seating depth I find the 230 TC's usually give a little higher velocity than lead 230 roundnoses with a 2 radius ogive when used with the same powder charge.

Problem with heavy springs in a 1911 is the forward velocity is hard on the lug feet by the link - the extra forward spring velocity makes increased battering there a likelihood and breakage an eventual possibility, shortening the very long life the 1911 normally has as its standard condition.

The frame and slide are actually intended to withstand impacts around the frame and slide impact surfaces; it's just that other things enter into the breakage equation when spring strength is increased. Also, the slide longevity drops substantially with heavy loads, not so much due to slide/frame impact but to breakage around the slide in the region of the ejection port due to the hammering heavy loads place on the slide's lug recesses and breechface. Since the sharp corners cause stress risers, slide cracks are quite common here when many very heavy loads are fired. Spring strength doesn't help that even in the slightest, as this stress occurs regardless of the strength of of the spring. The hammering occurs long before the spring comes into play to arrest the slide's rearward motion.

[zxcvbob]

How about 6.7 grains of Herco and 1.200" overall length? (gives a seating depth of .326") A little better? It's still right at 900 fps from a 4" barrel. Too hot?

Would probably be good in a M1917 revolver, or a Model 25 or 625, even if it's too much for an automatic.