Ka-Boom

[robertbank]

Well the odds finally caught up to me. what happened shoudn't happen but it did. I figure it had to be a double charge. How did it happen? Well I think it happened when I was setting and measuring each round. Likely when I was setting the powder measure I inadvertantly pulled the handle after hand filling the case from the scale and simply missed it. Aside from a bruised ego, and a split right grip no damge was done to either the shooter or the gun. I have to tell you though the first thing I did was check my hands to see if all the fingers were still there. They were but they sure were black! The first picture is that of the ruptured case. The next two are the cases that were in the mag. Note the bullet set back from the recoil. None of them went off fortunately or I would be typing this with my nose. As of a matter of interest the bullet hit in the 10 ring.:-D


Folks you just cannot be to careful. I should add those cases were nice and bright and shinny before the kaboom.

[StarMetal]

I assume it was a 1911. I'm glad you didn't get hurt. I think 1911's are pretty forgiving. Most of what I've seen is they blow the magazine out and shatter the grips. As of lately I haven't seen one that come apart anymore then that.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Wow, glad you're OK! KNOCK ON WOOD--I haven't had such an experience, and hope to never do so.

[redneckdan]

nice, last ka-boom I witnessed was a glock in .45 acp, a newbie was loading bullseye and musta double or triple charge a case, he was learning to reload on a dillon. Not the machines fault but I don't recommend progessive to learn on, get a single stage first. He was left holding the grip and that was it, everything else was scattered about the range. He not shoots a 1911, he also moth balled the dillon and got a single stage lee. if he would have listened in the first place damn it....:roll:

[454PB]

Are you sure the bullet set back isn't what caused the ka-boom?

Glad you were not hurt, I've been through one of these myself.

[robertbank]

Let me say this double charge is my stupid fault and has nothing to do with my Dillon 550. I am quite sure this happened when I was setting the measure and not in the normal routine of loading.

To prevent this from happening again I will use UNPRIMED cases at stage 2 to check and set the powder measure THEN once it is set start reloading. Feel like a complete a$$ over this. 35 years of reloading and....well heck it was a cheap lesson fortunately. If you want to scare the heck out of yourself plus jam a gun up pretty good in the process this is just about as good a way as I can think of. Wish I had a camera when it happened. About the only thing I didn't do is wet myself. To busy kicking myself in the backside for being so dumb!

and yes it was a 1911 - my customized Norinco. Good steel in those guns, would have really upset me if I had broke the gun, got a few bucks tied up into that shooter and she is was great shooter I can tell you.
Take Care

[Dale53]

I had a buddy that had a similar accident with a 1911 .45 acp. He attributed it to a deep seated bullet. His cracked his walnut grips and ruined a magazine. He was lucky, also.

I managed to get several thousand GI brass cases for my .45. Never had a deep seated bullet after that. Remington commercial cases were entirely too thin to hold the cast bullet securely enough. Winchesters were some better but I still like GI cases. I use a moderate taper crimp.

Dale53

[robertbank]

Well the thought of set back did occur to me. Unlike lead bullets the metal jacketed rounds don't have the friction grab lead bullets do and it is possible that as the round cycled into the gun the bullet was pushed back in to the case. I am going to re-crimp all the remaining bullets in that batch just to make sure and likely go down to a .469 crimp. The case was a Federal and had not been reloaded more than 5 - 6 times. I do think it was a double charge though. Just dumb error on my part.

As I recall recoil was excessive but frankly I have to admit my mind was more focussed on my rapidly numbing fingers more than it was the recoil. Sure got my attention in a hurray. Went home unjammed the gun and went right back and fired off a box of ammo with our ERT team from the RCMP. Figured is was like getting bucked off a horse. Didn't flinch when I went back so I guess the old body is over the shock. I thought you got wiser as you got older not just older!

If this can happen to me due to a lapse then you can be sure it can happen to you. Don't let your guard down while you are reloading or bad things can happen....quickly.

Take Care

[Lee]

FWIW, I always do my setups on a primered, "FIRED" case. That way the case goes for the entire ride through the reloading process. Only it can NEVER, EVER, get accidentally touched off by mistake. Just my .02............................Lee:)

[DX250]

I had a case head rupture on me in my Caspian 1911 in 40 Super. The result was my hands were black and numb also my teak wood grips were wuined. I now load to about 30,000 PSI. I also use new Starline brass not formed from once fired 45 Win Mag stuff. I think I did not get a good crimp and i had setback. The rule of thumb i use now is check everything twice.

Be Safe
Brian

[Bucks Owin]

Glad you digits are all still in place!

I think you're only allowed one mistake in handloading, so be careful now, you've used your's up! ;-)

Dennis
(who isn't surprised that a progressive loader was involved....)

[David R]

Thanks for sharing that. I have had 2 38s that had no charge in them. Both times I think If I missed a charge, then I could also have a double charge. I hope its your only mistake.

Made mine, I used 296 instead of 748 in my 22-250. I was not hurt, but had to send the gun to remington. It got a new barrel and bolt. I now keep one can of powder on the bench.

David.

[StarMetal]

Well I'm hearing exactly what I said about 1911's...blow out the magazine and destroy the grips...even with a high pressure round like the 40 S&W letting go. Better then the damn slide turning into shrapnel. I've had some fellows say that is why they like the rubber grips on their 1911's and not the steel lined ones.

Joe

[versifier]

I'm glad you're OK and can still count to ten with no calculator. :-D
Guns, no matter how expensive, can be replaced, but not so with body parts. I, too, wonder if setback might not have been the cause because you said the shot went into the 10 ring. In the one Kaboom I witnessed and others that were mentioned in the SEE thread, the bullets went who-knows-where, but nowhere near the target. Just speculation on my part.

[robertbank]

Yes I can confirm the bullet hit almost dead centre in the ten ring at 15 yards. I am beginning to suspect bullet set back as well. The non-ramped barrel is not as smooth a transition from mag to chamber as you find in the Para for example. I am going to do some measuring and testing by cycling rounds as well as firing one round then cycling the action by hand and shooting another round so to keep all rounds in the mag enduring constant recoil just to see if that is indeed the problem.

I intend to change my procedure for setting the powder mesure in any event. Eliminating the variables is next to godliness in reloading.

Probably stick to lead bullets from now on as well. May even get a Lee FCD as well. Gad I can't believe I said that!:mrgreen:

Take Care

[rbstern]

Glad you are ok, and appreciate you sharing the story. It's a reminder we all need that "stuff" happens and we have to be diligent.

[StarMetal]

Bob,

For just cycling and no firing one way I do it is I remove the firing pin and the recoil spring...this is just for my first testing to see what is going on. Then put the recoil spring back in. Probably best to make up some dummy rounds to do all this. Thank goodness I've never had a set back problem with my 45acp's. I have my feed ramps, both on the frame and barrel, polished pretty good. When the pistol is disassembled and you take that barrel and lay it in the recess for it on the frame and push the barrel back so the lug hits up against the frame, there should be about a 1/32 inch gap between the top edge of the frame feed ramp and the botton edge of the barrel. The barrel edge is never to be even with the frame feed ramp top edge. Alot of so called pistolsmiths think that it is. It's not. Actually the way the round travels is it more or less pops out of the magazine when it's free of the magazine lips. The nose of the bullet doesn't really ride the entire frame feed ramp and barrel feed ramp. If you've shot alot of cast and your pistol is dirty some, you can actually see where the bullet is hitting both feed ramps. I know you're mainly talking about recoil set back of the bullet. Good luck and getting your bullet tightness problems solved.

Joe

[robertbank]

Thanks Joe. This bullet, you can see it in the pics has a very blunt nose and I suspect that has played some part in all of this. I load them to max. length so they should feed about as well as they can. My experience has been that blunt bullets and short OAL don't always go together. I'll keep you posted.

Take Care

[mike in co]

there is a simple way to avoid double charges.........

always select a powder and charge the exceeds 50% of case capacity......

folks i own two dillons and most of my PISTOL loads are close to 80% case capacity.

to me its not worth the money saved on a small powder charge ............

when i load rifle rounds that are low volume or pistol powders...i do ONE AT A TIME....I USE A BUNCH OF LEE HAND LOADERS.

all the money you save will not replace a finger or an eye......

and if you loose a finger or an eye , you may not be able to re-earn the money either........

it just aint worth it.....
( and for the record...to date i have never used a single stage press....., lee turret, lyman turret, two dillons....i will be using some sort of a single stage when i start shooting my 6ppc/ar15 br gun......maybe...lol)

[robertbank]

Just weighed all the remaining rounds and pulled the heaviest of the lot and all were loaded with 5.3 gr 231.

More and more I think this was a case of bullet set back. These particular bullets are going to get a .469 crimp (FMJ - plated) as they seem to be fairly easy to push back into the case - I tried a couple by pressing them with against my bench. Once they are gone I am going to stick to lead in my Norks and only use these in my Para with a fully supported barrel and a ramped feed ramp. I think there is a good chance the blunt front edge of this bullet is prone to catch itself as it rides into the chamber. RN FMJ will be the order of the day going forward for jacketed bullets.

Lee

My new routine too! Just one less chance of doing something dumb. The real lesson learned here for me is nobody is infallable and you cannot ever be doing something long enough not to learn and move on. I do hope my experience is noted by guys either just getting into reloading or have been at it for awile. Whether it was bullet set back, which I think may have been the case, or a double charge the effect is about the same and I have adjusted now for both.

JOe you are bang on regarding the 1911. I have seen pictures of what was left of a glock have a similar experience and the shooters were not as lucky as I was.

Take Care all and thank-you for your concerns and comments.

Bob

[StarMetal]

Bob,

Another helpful thing...part of my don't remove any metal UNTIL thing. That is try a bunch of different magazines. Also get one that you won't worry about messing up and fool around with the lips and the follower angle. If you have magazines that all have the same bottoms, what I do is put a cartridge or two in all of them and then line them up side by side then look at the different feed angles all the different magazines present. You may find one that presents the nose of the bullet higher then the other and that would be good for your blunt bullet style. Personally myself I like Chip McCormicks Shooting Star magazines. Now don't take that as an endorsement that you buying one will solve your problems....just saying I like them and they are good mags.

Joe

[Four Fingers of Death]

I had a case head rupture on me in my Caspian 1911 in 40 Super. The result was my hands were black and numb also my teak wood grips were wuined. I now load to about 30,000 PSI. I also use new Starline brass not formed from once fired 45 Win Mag stuff. I think I did not get a good crimp and i had setback. The rule of thumb i use now is check everything twice.

Be Safe
Brian

he always used to say: "you can measure as many times as you like, but you only get to cut once!"

Been one of my guiding principles (well it is now, I screwed up a lot of stuff befiore I remembered it and started to take note of it. :-) .

[TCLouis]

I will scan some pics and show some Pics of a Ka boom I was involved with.
Like you I was lucky.

[robertbank]

Hi Joe

I share your opinion on shooting star mags.

I examined all ther remaining cartridges from that loading session this morning. Weighed them and pulled five bullets that appeared to weigh more than the rest. All were loaded with 5.3 gr Win 231.

I then applied a little pressure to one round and found that it did not take much to move the bullet backward. I went to the range and proceded to do some tests. All went well with no surprises. It appears that if the stars are alligned just right bullet set back can be a concern with these bullets using the gun I was shooting. I intend to load and fire the remaining bullets through my Para using a .469 crimp. The ramp barrel will feed easier and I will have the added comfort of a fully supported case.

From what I can see it now appears to be a case of bullet set back as opposed to a double charge though we will never know for sure. The results certainly are the same.

Take Care

[StarMetal]

Bob,

About that ramped Para barrel. I'm sitting here thinking if I'm going to have a disaster or great pressure, would I rather have it in an unsupported barrel or the ramped one. Hmmmmmm...I know what the unsupported barrel will do and that is what happen to you...blow the mag out and shatter the grips. I'm wondering if the supported barrel would just blow up? Now where to blow the web out of the case and vent the gas with the supported barrel.

Joe

[robertbank]

Assuming there is no obstruction I think you would be fine with a fully supported barrel. We shoot 45-08 cartridges out of standard barrels both supported and unsupported. The problem with excessive pressure in the .45acp is the thickness of the webbing in the case which is not designed to take the kind of pressure occuring with bullet set back. My main reason for going with the Para is the ramped barrel is to allow for a smoother chambering of the round. That said I also think applying a tighter crimp will also help prevent bullet setback. Given my experience I doubt I will buy any more of this design. The cost for 230 gr RN bullets is not much more and the RN feeds so much better. All my 1911's shoot lead really well so unless I have a specific need for FMJ - ie shooting indoors and I don't often, I think I'll stick to my cast boolits.

Should also invest in a Lee FCD as well and swallow my pride.

Take Care

[slughammer]

Should also invest in a Lee FCD as well and swallow my pride.

Take Care

I don't see how a FCD is going to help a setback problem.

The answer is to match your sizing and expanding to the bullet you use.

If your size die is reasonable, which it should be; I would look at the powder through expander. Measure the diameter, chuck it in a drill and polish it down with some fine paper. Take off .001. Load some dummies and test for setback. Repeat process until desired results are obtained.

For this application, bullet tension comes on the front end of the reloading process.
You need to use a smaller diameter expander to shoot jacketed.

[robertbank]

You have me confused, which at times is not all that hard to do.

I use Dillon dies. Resizing takes place in Stage 1. Aside from slight belling in Stage 2 other than crimping, using a taper crimp in Stage 4 there is no other step that involves the diameter of the case. If I read you right, it is the resizing die that would have to be smaller in diameter.

Take Care

[slughammer]

Resizing die should be fine. Feel free to measure the inner diameter of it. Perhaps size 10 cases and post the sized diameter. Most dies size more than enough.

Station 2, the belling operation is what I'm talking about. If your powder drop case expander is on the high side of the tolerance it could be causeing the problems. Pull the powder measure, remove the expander and measure it's diameter (especially the lower section, below the "V"). I don't have my notes with me now, but I have measured a bunch of expanders over a range of calibers and different brands of dies; lots of variation can be found.

None of my Dillon expanders ever allowed set back until I started loading 9mm. I found that problem by pressing the round on the edge of my bench when I was setting up. Solved the problem by putting the expander in the drill press and polishing it with some 400 then 600 grit paper.

One other factor can be your brass. The amount of sizing and expanding depend on the brass thickness and springback. For example I've heard lots of people say no jacketed bullets in 45 acp with Remington brass.

When you measure the expander from your press, let us know what you get.

[The_Baron]

Testing loads for auto pistols, I have found many a bullet giving in to setback when pushing the nose on the bench or cycling through the pistol, usually with jacketed bullets. I rarely load jacketed bullets with out first sizing with an undersized sizing die. I have every one that EGW sells.

Of course cast bullets are much less likely to give trouble.

[StarMetal]

I've been loading 45acp for alot of years and Remington by far is the worse brass in the world for it.

Joe

[The_Baron]

Yup, I only use Remington brass with lead bullets.

[Lee]

Uh-oh! Big mental note to self; Remington brass not= jacketed bullets. Thanks guys, thats one of them tidbits needs to be broadcast............Lee:)

[robertbank]

Here are 10 I.D. measurements taken from mixed brass that has been reloaded several times.

Case 1 .444
Case 2 .437
Case 3 .439
Case 4 .447
Case 5 .439
Case 6 .444
Case 7 .444
Case 8 .442
Case 9 .443
Case 10.442

Aftrer Going through Stage 2 "Belling"
Case 1 .444
Case 2 .443*
Case 3 .442*
Case 4 .448
Case 5 .444*
Case 6 .444
Case 7 .446*
Case 8 .446*
Case 9 .443
Case 10.447*

The latter set of measurement is the I.D. of the case and not the belled portion. The jacketed bullets are .451. Those cases that showed more than .001 increase in diameter are marked with an asterisk. You can attribut some variance to the mesurement error.

Here are the measurements after going through the crimp process.

Case 1 .442
Case 2 .444
Case 3 .439
Case 4 .442
Case 5 .442
Case 6 .442
Case 7 .442
Case 8 .444
Case 9 .442
Case 10.443

With one exception all come out +/- .002 which is pretty consistent which would mean worst case there is .007 tension on the bullet. I then loaded a bullet into case 2 which has a finished I.D. of .444 and could not push back the bullet after seating using what I would describe as strong thumb pressure.

We are looking more and more like we had a double charge.:coffee:

Thoughts,

Take Care

[slughammer]

Your measurements after stage 2 look good. I just ran 10 through the press and after stage 2 I had an ID of .447 on the majority; EXCEPT the Reminton, they were right about .450 ID. I've only ever loaded 99 & 44/100% lead in 45 acp, the only exception was some 230FMJ to use in the 625 for a really big match, and that was Federal brass.

I'd be in favor of renaming the crimp step to the bell remover step. A roll crimp adds case tension, but a taper crimp doesn't. For auto loader rounds I use the size and expand steps to get the case tension, the crimp only removes the bell. I was loading Lyman 358242 95gr version in 38 spl cases and I was getting loose boolits. That 95 gr boolit has a very short drive band in the case and eventually I found that the crimp was making the booits smaller. I had to back off the crimp and eventually I got the the point where I couldn't twist a booilt with a pair of pliers. Do an experiment sometime and keep adding more taper crimp and checking case tension with a dummy round, when you get to a certain point the bullet will get loose in the case.

When I did modify my expander for 9mm; IIRC I took off .002.

Next time you load 100 check them all for set back. I put the nose of the boolit against the bench and push on the back of the case with my thumb. I can push harder that way. If you can check 100 and get them all to pass, then every thing is right.

[robertbank]

Thanks for the input you obviously have take sometime to look into this. I am going to back down my taper crimp to .469 from .471. I will test cartridges to ensure the bullets will pass the "thumb" test. I will let you know by PM how they work out. The bullets are very accurate and from a Canadian company of all things. I hope I can solve this problem for two reasons. One, the bullets are accurate and secondly given the political climate up here, even with the Conservatives finally in power, I try to support this small Canadian company operating in the shooting industry. The product of course has to be competitively priced and of good quality. So far it has been.

Thanks again and I'll let you know how I make out.

Take Care
Bob

[Bret4207]

I'm no 45 expert, but if case spring back is an issue then pehaps you should consider annealing after 3 or 4 reloadings. On a short case like the 45ACP it may be a significant factor being that the mouth is so close to the web in relative terms. I bought a bunch of Winnie 45ACP and the cases were pretty stiff at the mouth. A little annealing and they were much more cast friendly.

I'm in favor of the Lee FCD with the thought in the back of my head that ANY die can mangle a lead boolit if used too aggresively. Finding the perfect balance is tricky.