What was original boolit weight in 9mm

[awaveritt]

Can any of you historians tell me what the Germans originally loaded in their Luger military cartridge? And what kind of ballistics (velocity/energy) did it produce?

[rugerman1]

I don't know the exact answer to this,but my H&G #314 is listed as being a German Army Ogival shape.It drops ~135 grains.It looks like the Group Buy: MMA's 9mm X 135gr (Slippery) Pointed Round Nose (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=20249) boolit
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4952&d=1190584391

[leftiye]

I'm not sure of the weight, but it was a truncated cone design, about 120 grains.

[theperfessor]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was either 115 or 124 grs, but I have been wrong a lot and may well be wrong about this.

[Ricochet]

115 gr. was original. The 124 grain was a later development. The original weights were in grams, of course.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I've heard both 124 and 115 was the original weight. Interestingly, the H&G 314, which was a cousin of what I based my design off of, is a 135gr boolit, and it is listed as the original German Army Ogive. Of course the Ogive doesn't define weight...

I've also heard the original was a long, tapered TC, almost exactly like the Lyman 356402, which happens to be a 124gr boolit.

Of course, one of the biggest problems with what you're asking is, how do you define "original"? I imagine that when the 9mm case was invented, a boolit of some now-forgotten-to-history weight was the first one shoved into the case mouth, and how well or poorly it worked in the pistol caused it to be modified. There were probably several weights/shapes tried, if development back then was anything like development these days... What I imagine you're really asking, is "what was the first established guide for the mass-production of ammunition by any/all vendors?"

In that case, I'd lean towards 124grs, though I'm open to other data.

FYI, if you think the Germans settled on a gram-weight bullet of even weight, I'd advise the following:

7.45 grams = 115 grs
7.51 grams = 116 grs (a common european bullet weight for 9mm)
7.97 grams = 123 grs (another common european bullet weight for 9mm)
8.03 grams = 124 grs

I'd also point out that both the H&G314 and the Lyman 356402 have long, tapered noses with minimal meplat or a tapered/pointy round nose. Feeding was obviously a primary concern, no matter which design you believe is original...

[theperfessor]

From your calculations it seems likely that the 9mm was designed for a 7.5 to 8 gram bullet. Designers tend to use round numbers for certain parameters. Given standard manufacturing tolerances you'd get a 116 or 124 gr bullet. My HiPower works fine with both weights, bet most 9mms do.

Don't have any specs on specifications for original design velocity but most reloading manuals show safe loads in the 1100-1300+ ft/s range with 115 jacketed and 1000 to 1200+ for 122-125 gr cast. I've read where the German military 9mm ammo was "brisk".

[Shiloh]

I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was either 115 or 124 grs, but I have been wrong a lot and may well be wrong about this.

This is my understanding as well. 115 gr. was first. 124 gr. for improved cycling
issues. Some of the more historically knowledgable folks could clear it up.

Shiloh

[MakeMineA10mm]

From your calculations it seems likely that the 9mm was designed for a 7.5 to 8 gram bullet. Designers tend to use round numbers for certain parameters. Given standard manufacturing tolerances you'd get a 116 or 124 gr bullet. My HiPower works fine with both weights, bet most 9mms do.

Don't have any specs on specifications for original design velocity but most reloading manuals show safe loads in the 1100-1300+ ft/s range with 115 jacketed and 1000 to 1200+ for 122-125 gr cast. I've read where the German military 9mm ammo was "brisk".

I thought the same, and believe it was probably designed around an 8.0gram bullet, which would put it at 123.5grs in our measurement system.

I found the following at http://www.lugerforum.com/history.html:

Georg Luger, an employee of Loewe & Co., took the Borchardt pistol as a starting point for designing the first pistols resembling what we would call a "Luger." The changes he made included development of a new cartridge, the 7.65 Parabellum or 7.65x23 cartridge (also called .30 Luger in USA), which is a 2mm shorter version of the Borchardt cartridge with a different powder charge. (The 7.63 Mauser has a 25mm case). In addition to the new cartridge, Luger also redesigned the complex mechanism behind the grip. He retained the toggle-locking action of the Borchardt, but replaced the Borchardt's bizarre mainspring and the large housing it necessitated with a leaf spring in the grip, improving the balance of the pistol. He also angled the grip for better pointability. A grip safety was added to the rear of the frame by 1904.

In an attempt to allay concerns about poor stopping power with such a small-caliber bullet, Georg Luger developed a second cartridge, the 9mm Parabellum. The 9mm Parabellum also goes by the names 9mm Luger and 9x19mm. The 9mm Parabellum cartridge cartridge case has the same base dimensions as the 7.65x23 Parabellum cartridge, but is not necked down, and is shorter, only 19mm long.
Unfortunately, no insights about original bullet weight.

Anyone have this book? I'm sure the answer can be found inside:
http://www.rayrilingarmsbooks.com/rrb52/images/items/1465.jpg

AHA! Google can be our friend, if we go through the junk for screening purposes. Found this at the Cartridge Collectors website:

The earliest loads have FMJ truncated cone bullets weighing 124grains. These were replaced in Germany with 124grain FMJ bullets with a round ogive in 1915-1916 (Figure 3) though truncated cone bullets were used on commercial loads in the United States into the 1930s. Later, round nose FMJ 115 grain bullets, usually having concave bases were introduced by a number of countries including Britain (Figure 4).

[Marlin Hunter]

Can any of you historians tell me what the Germans originally loaded in their Luger military cartridge? And what kind of ballistics (velocity/energy) did it produce?

http://cartridgecollectors.org/intro9mm/

It says 124 gr. I don't know if you can find ballistic information for the original 9mm cartridges. If they had data, it was probably taken, destroyed, or lost after WWI.

[evan price]

I had heard somewhere the 122-grain TC was supposedly "the" Luger bullet, running around at 1250-1300 FPS (up in today's +P range).
However this was something I heard a long time ago and filed away in the memory banks so I can't prove or disprove the veracity of it.

[MakeMineA10mm]

Marlin Hunter,
Thanks for posting the link. I was in a hurry Sunday morning and was going to come back and post the link for referrence purposes, but didn't get time until today, and say you took care of it. THANKS!



Using some supposition and memories (which seem to be confirmed by others' posts above), I'd say the following is likely the most true:

An 8.0 gram (123.5gr) long-tapered Truncated Cone was the original bullet. (Something that looks a LOT like the Lyman 356402.)

After a few feeding issues, they came out with a pointed round nose design that looks like the H&G314, which in 124gr weight was put out by Saeco (which is the boolit I designed my slippery RN off of, but then brought it back up to 135gr weight).

Later on, what we think of today as the traditional round nose came out in 115.75gr weight (7.5 grams) with a concave base in FMJ wrapping. I'm sure there's a Cast Boolit mould that replicates this profile and weight, but I'm a medium-weight man when it comes to the 9mm (123gr-135gr), so I haven't looked for one.