45 long colt

[hk45]

Think about buying a Marlin 1894 cowboy 45lc 20 inch. Using 300gr Gold Dot HP's would 2000fps be possible? Read an article in leverguns.com that suggested it might. If not what would be max vol. using the above bullet. Any input welcom.

[sagacious]

Ay caramba. The sun sure must be hot down-under. Welcome aboard. :drinks:

The recipe would be a stout load for sure, and that Marlin would kick you like the cloven hoof of the devil himself.

Possible? Maybe. Sane? Probably not. To my mind the 45colt is a great cartridge precisely because it need not be loaded to ultramax velocities to be effective. Personally, I would not hitch my star on the hopes of both developing and perhaps somehow actually surviving such a loading "recipe." The phrase 'recipe for disaster' leaps instantly to mind.

I shoot the LEE 452-300-RF to 1647fps avg from my Marlin, and there's precious few four-legged critters I might see that this load would fail to shoot clean through-- and that includes just about anything you might view in Jurassic Park.

I would humbly and gently council you to not seek for the outer stratosphere when loading for the 45colt in a levergun. Is this just a theoretical question of the cowboy carbine kind, or be there some need for such a prodigious load in that caliber? Feverish minds want to know! :)

[w30wcf]

hk45,
That is .454 Casull territory in a levergun operating at 60,000 CUP(!!) which is waayyy more pressure than a '94 Marlin can handle.

I have hit 2,000 f.p.s. with a 250 gr. bullet in my Marlin which has a 24" barrel but it took a load that was in the neighboorhood of close to 38,000 CUP (max. in a '94 Marlin) to do it.

Stay safe,
w30wcf

[felix]

Use WW or AA 680 (1680) or H116 to bottom of seated boolit. That would be about 28 grains for a 300 grainer. That's plenty umph for the 250-300 grainers. For this powder speed, the CUP should not exceed 30K, with velocity circa 1500 (by trajectory eyeball). Case longevity in a large chamber is decreased, even if just neck sized. 25 grains of RL7 will do the same trajectory, and is about the same volume of powder. Standard primers are sufficient and preferred at 70 degrees. Casull cases will micro-split at the base in a large chamber with this load, and it is suggested to use normal cases with large primers because they are soft enough to expand. ... felix

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I personally think IF I need a 300 grain 45 caliber boolit at 2000 fps I will get out my 45-70 and leave the 6.5 pound lever Marlin at home. Mine is a 41 Mag and it has an unpleasant bite with a 265 grain moving at 1650 +. Whereas the heavier 45-70 Winny can take alll the hot loaded 300 grainers you want to feed it and does not make the brains cells go mushy on the side.
I personally have no desire to load my 45 Colt Rossi to that level.... That is why the 45-70 is still a VERY popular caliber lever action.

[leadeye]

I have fired some stout loads in my Henry which is a lot heavier than my 1894. I don't know how fast I have pushed that Lee 300 with 23 grains of H110 but I don't find it uncomfortable to shoot.

[ggeilman]

Paco's loads are around 40,000 CUP which is 1892 territory, not 1894. With the 1894 it is recommended to stay under 30,000.

[O.S.O.K.]

Paco's loads are around 40,000 CUP which is 1892 territory, not 1894. With the 1894 it is recommended to stay under 30,000.

Uh, the operating pressure of the 44 Mag is more than 30,000 and its chambered in the 94 Marlin...

Bottom line, for the 45 Colt and 300 grain bullets, you're looking at 1500 fps max with top loads.

[hk45]

Thank you for your replies. Basically I was trying to achieve the flattest trajectory using a 300gr hp in 45 cal Marlin 1894 " I don't like the other rifle brands'' for hunting anything from wallabies to deer without resorting to a 45/70. The lighter weight, extra capacity and potentially near light 45/70 loads is very appealing in the 1894.

[runfiverun]

man a 250 over 1500 fps is stout,and i doubt a deer up to 300 lbs would even slow it down out to 100 yds.
i usually put one in the shoulder.

[EDK]

Go to lasc.us and look at Glenn Fryxell's article on 1894 MARLINS...and a lot of other topics. He has some data on the 45 Colt lever gun that makes me want to buy one...and I have carried a 44 or a 45/70 MARLIN since 1975.

:Fire::castmine::redneck:

[Lloyd Smale]

I agree with the others. 1500-1600 is about all your going to want to load to in a marlin. If your shooting your gun more then just occasionaly you will beat it up fast with loads any hotter then that. The good thing is that at that level your basically getting factory 4570 level power and the 4570 at that level was instumental in wiping out the buffalo herd!! To me if i wanted more power then that id load a 320-350 grain hardcast lfn to about 1400 and at that level id be confident hunting any game animal in the world.

[gon2shoot]

I've shot some pretty heavy loads through my 45s, though I usually load that type in a 92 action.

Thankfully I've found I dont need that stiff a load. (fun to play with, but wouldnt want to live there)

[felix]

Why is the 92 "stronger" than the 94? It seems to me the locking surface area is more in the 94???? ... felix

[1874Sharps]

HK45,

May I humbly and respectfully submit that it is probably not the safest ground that you propose to tread. I am with the others on this subject. If you need 45-70 performance, it may be best to get a levergun in that caliber (or 454 Casull). I know that you mention the new gun's use as a CAS gun and I get the implication that you want to get double duty from it, which I completely understand. Personally, I am afraid to load 45 Colt above the SAAMI pressure level for this cartridge because I have several pistols/rifles chambered in 45 Colt and am afraid that either I or someone else who inherits the gear might try to fire a hot 45 Colt round in a cold 45 Colt gun and have a very bad day! Maybe some of you are a bit more on the ball and do not have to worry about such things, but I try to safeguard myself and stay within my limits. HK45, have you considered an 1866 or 1873 Winchester for CAS? I really like the smooth action on mine and think it is just the ticket for shooting against the clock (although I think they clock me with a calendar).

[StarMetal]

Why is the 92 "stronger" than the 94? It seems to me the locking surface area is more in the 94???? ... felix

I agree with you Felix. I don't think anyone has actually proven that. I have heard that the 94 Win is stronger then the 336 Marlin.

Joe

[felix]

Joe, it's all about "strength of materials" and surface area. Strength is a function of hardness and toughness in the proper ratio for the application. Barrels should be tougher than harder, and actions harder than tougher. In general for gun use, stainless steel is tougher, while the converse is true for the modern varieties of the non-stainless types. I have read that the last runs of the 336 are proofed at 90K psi, but that does not mean Bo-Diddly because I know that long time shooting these rear locking guns increases headspace, because of bolt compression more than anything. Nothing to do with locking lugs/bars, et.al. ... felix

[StarMetal]

Joe, it's all about "strength of materials" and surface area. Strength is a function of hardness and toughness in the proper ratio for the application. Barrels should be tougher than harder, and actions harder than tougher. In general for gun use, stainless steel is tougher, while the converse is true for the modern varieties of the non-stainless types. I have read that the last runs of the 336 are proofed at 90K psi, but that does not mean Bo-Diddly because I know that long time shooting these rear locking guns increases headspace, because of bolt compression more than anything. Nothing to do with locking lugs/bars, et.al. ... felix

You said it correctly Felix. I believe today's barrels are tougher, as you noted. I just don't see the little bitty lug locking a Marlin 336 bolt as any stronger then the 94 Win lock up. It's a proven fact that on the 45-70 caliber Marlins that there is a very very thin receiver portion right between the barrel and the magazine tube cutout. In fact few months back a blow up was pictured and that exact thing was mentioned. I like Marlins, partial to Winchesters, but sure don't believe the Marlin is the best lever action rifle out there.

Anyway back on topic. Those original loads mentioned for the 45 Colt (not long Colt) are way too much. They are indeed into the 454 class. You also don't need that much.

Joe

[O.S.O.K.]

I think you guys will find the information that you are looking for on Paco's leverguns board. This has been tested and the 92 is the stronger action.

Nothing off of the 94 Marlin you understand - its my choice.

Consider that the Rossi 92 is chambered in 454 Casull...

And to the topic of the thread, I would suggest a 250 grain gas check swc boolit with 26.5 gr of H110 or W296 will give close to 1800 fps and pack a heckava whallop - plenty for anything that you could hunt in Australia - short of the buffs.

If you want the flattest shooting load for the Marlin 45 Colt - that's what I'd go with.

[felix]

Tested? The test I want to see are resulting graphs of the metal expansion taken at various points in the action, preferably with prints of the grain structure at the various points. Reason: I was really taken back from Jumptrap's test of the strength of the "cheap" Mosin military bolt action. If I remember, he could not blow it to junk using the likes of Bullseye, but the action was pushed somewhat beyond its yield point. ... felix

[StarMetal]

I read Paco's story. I agree with Felix, I see no professional testings. Now here's something I wonder. Is the metal in those 454 Brazilian 92's different then the 94 Winchesters? I'll bet you both the rifles it is and the 92 metal is stronger. Make both rifles from the same steel and send them to a laboratory for professional testing. Take the Big Bore 94, just thicking the receiver wall fore and aft puts the rifle in the 55K+ range. That leaves the 336 Marlin in the dust, but what would it do in 45 Colt.

I've done some unprofessional testing with my 94 Win Trapper in 45 Colt and can say Paco is definitely wrong about my rifle!!!

The one thing I will agree with him on is that the 45 Colt brass is stronger then most realize and is not the weak link in the system. It's how well it fits the chamber for starters.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Tested? The test I want to see are resulting graphs of the metal expansion taken at various points in the action, preferably with prints of the grain structure at the various points. Reason: I was really taken back from Jumptrap's test of the strength of the "cheap" Mosin military bolt action. If I remember, he could not blow it to junk using the likes of Bullseye, but the action was pushed somewhat beyond its yield point. ... felix

Felix,

Jump and I collaborated on that Mosin test. After he finished that test he sent me the barrel. He said it was bulged in the chamber area. Well, let me tell you, you really had to look at it close. My term would have been swelled. Jump told me over the phone that with the action he had (a round receiver Polish of 1944) that one could literally scoop a primed case full of any rifle powder, seat the bullets, and fire it will no ill effects. I told him use Bullseyes and he finally did. It froze the bolt, which he unscrewed the barrel and got the action open. Did not a thing to either the action or the brass!!!!! The brass alone amazed me. I was, up to that time, one of the biggest critics of the Mosin Nagant action.

Joe

[454PB]

While doing some "enthusiastic" load testing for my various .454 Casulls, I was impressed by my Puma rifle. Loads worked up to the point that they stuck tightly in my Ruger SRH were gobbled up by the Puma with no indication of even approaching maximum loads (other than a sore shoulder).

[O.S.O.K.]

I guess I was trying to say that the topic was wandering away from the thread starter's question....

:hijack:

The Rossi vs Marlin topic and general testing would make a dandy new thread :)

[felix]

Remember that Ruger had that cylinder steel especially made for that round. Their normal steel would have been OK for a five shooter, but no, Bill wanted a six shooter. That required a tougher steel, not harder. That toughness allows the new steel to expand and contract back to same dimensions at the proverbial 60K. However, the brass won't contract as much because it went over its rebounding capabilities in that expanding steel. When the steel comes back to standard, it encloses onto the brass causing the stickiness. I have a Smith cylinder with the same characteristics caused by micro cracks in it's metallurgy that can be seen if examined closely. I sent it back to Smith, and they said its within tolerance. So, I just shoot loads that do not exceed about 25K cup in that gun. Why not change the cylinder out? Because it is the most accurate revolter in my stable, and not by just a little bit, but by a large margin. ... felix

[softpoint]

I'm thinking about 1800 fs. ought to be TOPS with the 45 colt Marlin with a 300 gr.
I can't imagine anything in North America that wouldn't kill.
The reason the '92 winchester is considered stronger than the Marlin is because of the way it locks. It is virtually a falling block action. In actuality, I wouldn't push it much further than anything else, however, because of the reciever front ring and barrel thickness,In other words you might not blow the breech out of a '92 but blowing the barrel off at the receiver and splitting the front of the receiver not a good thing either, eh?
I'm thinking the Puma .454 may be a bit thicker in that area? idon't know.:coffee:

[O.S.O.K.]

What loads are you guys using to push a 300 grain bullet or boolit to 1800 fps?

I can't see how to get past 1500 fps with "Ruger BH level" loads. Like 23 grains of H110.

[StarMetal]

About that Brazilian steel. I bought a machete about 15 years ago or more for $9 at a hardware store. The blade is marked Made In Brazil. I sharpened it up and found out in using it that it's one heck of a good piece of durable steel. Accidentally striking a big rock with the sharp blade results in sparks, a notch in the rock, and only a dulled edge. Not a smashed or dented edge, but just dulled. Another example on an early Puma 92 in 357 from the early 80's, I D&T'ed the receiver for receiver sight. Some of the hardest steel I've worked with on firearms. Ranked up there with the Jap actions...almost.

The have some darn good steel for sure.

Joe

[sagacious]

What loads are you guys using to push a 300 grain bullet or boolit to 1800 fps?

I can't see how to get past 1500 fps with "Ruger BH level" loads. Like 23 grains of H110.

Here's a little light that I can shed-- based on my results-- on that question.

I load the LEE 452-300-RF bullet under 21grs of WW296 for 1647fps avg from my 20" barreled Marlin 1894.

That load is stout, but shootable. The Speer manual lists 21grs WW296 as a starting load under a 300 gr jacketed bullet for "Ruger and Contender ONLY loads". The Speer manual indicates 25,000cup as max for the 23grs WW296 and 300gr jacketed bullet recipe. Other testing that I have seen indicates around 24,000cup for the 21gr ww296 load and a 300gr lead bullet, and that 23grs ww296 with that same bullet is approx 30,000cup. All of these results appear to jibe, and appear fairly rational.

The 21gr WW296 300gr cast bullet load functions fine in my SRH revolver, and the brass falls free from the cylinder (velocity is 1342fps avg from that revolver). Functions fine also in the Marlin.

What velocity would 23grs and a 300gr cast bullet achieve from my Marlin? I will never know. I have no desire to load toward the 23gr ww296 recipe. And I have no desire to push the bullet to 1800fps.

These are my results, and are not indicative of what may be safe in another's firearm. Anyone considering "Ruger and Contender" level load for for 45colt are strongly urged to do their homework, and proceed with much caution and circumspection.

Hope this helps, stay safe everyone. :drinks:

[Lloyd Smale]

Rob Applegate a guy that knows more about lever guns and guns in general then about anyone i know told me this about it. He said the marlins week spot is the reciever where the barrel screws in. He built me a 475 linebaugh 94 but recomended i keep pressures down to about 30000 max. The said by the time he rethreaded the reciever for the bigger barrel and bored the 45 cal barrel that there wasnt much left. As to the actions he felt the 94 was probably a stronger action then the 336 and that the 336 bolt would flex more with real high pressures. He also told me that he wouldnt build a 50 ak on a marlin action and the only way hed build one would be on a 86 or 95 win. My ak is on a marlin and i dont worry about the action strenght because if i was running 450 grain bullets at 40000 pounds of chamber pressure id have to hire someone else to shoot the thing anyway.

[txpete]

OT a bit but I know a old guy down here that kills his deer every year with one of my 250 gr bullets @ 900 fps in his blackhawk.that said he is a excellent shot and hunter.:coffee:

[cajun shooter]

Felix, I almost always agree with you but will disagree on this one. The 92 is stronger because of the two steel locking lugs in the bolt. The 92 is nothing but a scaled down 1886 which has been called the strongest lever built. John M Browning did with this rifle as all things that he touched and made it ahead of it's time and a gun that will outlast any owner. The 94 reverted back to the single locking lug and is weaker by design. If you so desire look in Mike Venturino's book Shooting Lever Guns. He covers this matter in the chapter on the 94. I have owned as many as four 92's and just love the gun for it's easy and light carry. Anyone who has fired stiff loads through a 92 will not do so on a steady basis. You do it and say OK now that I know how that feels let's move on to more sane things. Having done this with the 45 Colt 92 I will agree that if you need something more than the 300-325 loads then you need to move up to the 45-70. Trying to over drive the 92 will not do the shooter or rifle any good. Later David

[pietro]

cajun shooter - +1

A Model 92 is the only one of the bunch that's factory-chambered/lawyer-approved for the .454 Casull.

.

[corvette8n]

I've shot this from my 16" Puma:
DoubleTap Ammunition 45 Colt (Long Colt) +P 300 Grain XTP
Muzzle Velocity: 1325 fps
Muzzle Energy: 1170 ft. lbs.

and I have a black and blue shoulder to prove it.
I don't doubt it would do the deed on Deer/Hogs at a reasonable hunting ranges.