Questions I dared not ask on other forums

[JDL]

Let me run a thought by you and see if I have my right mind set. I have been wanting to shoot BP in my .45-70 B-78 for a while and was just waiting to get another roundtuit. My thinking is to load a primer charge of 5-8 grains of Unique, 4759, or 4227 to limit the amount of fouling left in the bore. I don't want to use a blow tube or wiping rod after each shot, nor to have to use a card wad. Will a g/c boolit take the place of using a card? Will I still need to compress the B/P and will it be permissible to use 3F instead of 2F? Standard or magnum primers? -JDL

[montana_charlie]

I don't want to use a blow tube or wiping rod after each shot, nor to have to use a card wad. Will a g/c boolit take the place of using a card? Will I still need to compress the B/P and will it be permissible to use 3F instead of 2F? Standard or magnum primers? -JDL
I'm too much of a novice to say for sure, but going by I've read...

- I think standard primers will be enough considering the kind(s) of powder you are contemplating.
- 3F is considered to be kinda 'hot' for the .45-70.
- You will still need to eliminate all empty space in the case, so some compression is a good idea.
- The card wad prevents lube from migrating into the powder in warm weather or hot barrels. And, it is a handy way to hold the powder down under compression before seating the bullet. I don't think 'scraping the bore' is one of it's intended functions.
- As for the propellant mixture, there is information out there on duplex loads, but I don't know any more than that.
CM

[LIMPINGJ]

JDL the duplex charge will still have some fouling. The best thing is to keep the fouling soft and moist. The blow tube helps with the moisture, and a good BP lube helps to keep your fouling soft. You do not need to blow tube for a few shots fired like in hunting but seems to realy help for longer strings at the range. If you are using Goex most people seem to have best luck using some compression.
Jim

[45 2.1]

5 to 7 gr. of SR4759 as a kicker under a compressed FFG load with a plain base 405 or heavier will leave a clean bore. Use a BP friendly lube and you can shoot all day with no bore fouling.

[McLintock]

Can't comment on the duplexing as I've never done it, but it's a common enough practice, where allowed in some of the black powder competitions. It's mainly to reduce fouling so should help accomplish that objective for you. The main thing with fouling control is a good black powder lube and a bullet with enough lube capacity to carry enough for the barrel length you're using. With the 28" barrel on the B78 it shouldn't be too hard to meet it.
So far as using a gas check instead of a wad, I do it with 38-55's and it works great. The hard part is getting the right compression, because without a wad, it's both hard to measure powder height and to then compress it because of it's tendency to stick to the bottom of your compression plug. If you're going to use a powder like Swiss, which doesn't need much compression, then you can compress a little when seating the bullet, but this is normally a no-no for serious black powder shooting; can distort the bullet.
As for use of 3F, it's harder to handle the fouling associated with it, but it works good with the proper load. Since you don't want to blow tube or wipe between shots, probably it's not the best choice. The duplexing will help this. But you'll probably find with your Browning that the bullets can't be seated too far out due to a short throat, unlesss you find a bullet that bore rides in your barrel, so powder capacity will be limited and the 3F would be a way to get velocities back up. Definitely be something you can play with for a while while sorting it out.
McLintock

[Dale53]

I shot BPCR-Silhouette for a number of years. Most of the early years we duplexed. After you have determined your straight black powder capacity, just remove 10% of the black powder and replace it with 10% smokeless. I prefer RL-7 as it measures well and does a nice job. 4759 works well but doesn'[t measure well in most measures, 4227 works well and measures well, also.

When uisng Goex, I compressed as much as .300". I found no difference between using a compression die or drop tubing from a long tube. I just dropped straight out of the measure. Put the smokeless next to the primer and the compression will hold it in place through thick and thin. I used Emmert's Home Mix lube and could literally shoot all day long without cleaning. I often shot over 100 rounds in one day. My alloy was 30/1 pure lead/tin. I have used both custom moulds and stock moulds. My best mould is an NEI nose pour. I prefer "shoot as cast" and that mould allowed me to do so.

If you must size these bullets do it with a LEE Sizer. They are nose first and will not distort those soft bullets like a Lyman or RCBS can. I pan lubed the bullets in large cake pans (several hundred at a time).

If allowed, I would choose duplex loads everytime for Black Powder Cartridge Shooting. Puts the fun back in this kind of activity. However, NRA Silhouette does not permit it.

Dale53

[omgb]

Duplexing is the way to go if fouling reduction is your main goal. The GC is also superior to just a plain cardboard wad. Use 2F with the 45-70 and I think you will be happier... less fouling than with 3f. Since you are duplexing, standard rifle primers are the ticket. back your BP load off 10% and then use your smokeless. I have found that compressing is a double edged sword. Try and use minimal compression first. Take an unsized round and seat a bullet in it using finger pressure. Chamber this and note the measurment of OAL. This is your starting point. Prime, size and add your smokeless, and then drop tube BP into the cartridge until it is slightly above the base of the bullet when the bullet is seated..maybe a 1/16" at most. Now seat the bullet. This mild compression whould be enough given that you have a "boosted" load. If this doesn't do the job, try more compression. What you're shooting for is about 1150-1300 fps using a 500 grain bullet and genuine MOA at 200 yards. If you can get this, you're home free out to at least 500 yards.

[Wayne Smith]

Each of your questions are appropriate and best answered by your rifle. Choose one combination as your baseline, and it really doesn't matter which you choose. Establish your accuracy with this and begin to alter one change at a time until you find what your rifle likes. It's the most fun you are likely to have with the BCPR rifle, IMHO. Keep good records.

[KCSO]

Good clean powder (Swiss) a mild primer, and an appropriate lube will let you shoot between 15 and 20 rounds without cleaning. At about round 14-17 groups will start to open depending on the weather and the amount of humidity. A push through with a wiping stick and a wet and dry patch will put you back in business. If we had the tumbled powders they had in 1880 we could shoot like Ned Roberts, " I shot 125 shots and accuracy was as good at the last shot as the first". When I shoot black I shoot black, I have tried duplex and simply can't find any advantage to it, and the group I shoot with is black only. I had a B78 in 1990 and it shot FFg very well, but fffg would raise the pressures with no increase in accuracy. The extra 100 fps doesn't do any good unless it is as accurate or more accurate.

[Black Prince]

Dale53 is exactly correct with his information. I regularly shoot 40 rounds (or more when I'm feeling frogey) in a '74 Sharps chambered for the 45-70 Government cartridge without cleaning when using a load of 7 grains of H-4227, 69 grains of Goex FF-G, a 30 thousands card wad, compressed to allow the seating of the 500 or so grain bullet (I use several different bullets) to the crimp groove ( I do not crimp) and get the whole thing going with a Federal 215 Magnum primer. There is no more fouling left in the barrel after each shot than if I had used that smokeless white powder stuff that is a dying fad.

Swiss burns clean BUT IT BURNS HOT and the minimal fouling it leaves is hard. It will heat up your barrel much quicker making it necessary to spend more time allowing it to cool and if you do use a blow tube, it will make you dizzy trying to put enough breath moisture in a barrel so hot it immediately evaporates the moisture. At least , that is my experience with it after shooting five pounds of the stuff. I went back to Goex and I'll stay with Goex thank you all the same.

If you are shooting where duplex loads are not prohibited, and you want to shoot a lot without cleaning or using a blow tube, then duplex loads are the way to go. There are several smokeless powders suitable for this purpose already discussed and I use whichever one is in stock the day I go to the store to buy powder. Rx-7 and 4277 are my favorites because of their easy metering in a measure. I use a 30 inch drop tube with the Goex before inserting the card wad and compressing the powder. It's no big deal doing this and the benefits are great in my opinion. I'd rather shoot than give my rifle a BJ or clean the thing at the range. If you feel the same way, then duplexing is for you.

[PatMarlin]

Welcome to the forum BP.. :drinks:

I enjoy your posts at church.. :mrgreen:

[KCSO]

I'm afraid I am stuck in the 1870's as i don't shoot anything but straight black in my B/P guns. I started right in abo8ut 1969 and then was led astray with modern adaptations. Your lube will be the MOST important part of black powder shooting as it need to do two jobs, and I think that keeping the fouling soft is the most important. I use a mix of Bear Oil and Bees wax and I have a winter lube and a summer lube that are of different hardness. I use only bullets that have an adaquate grease groove ans I cast from 1-20 or 1-40 lead tin mix. I have used W/W with some sucess, but I prefer for target shooting to mix a batch of alloy from pure tin and pure lead and cast all my bullets for a season from one batch. I also open my flash holes to 5/64ths (same as 1880 F/A cases) and use a pistol primers. Even more than modern guns the B/P rifles are individuals. A load that groups 2 to 3 inches in one gun might go under 2 in another.

As to a blow tube, I was told by my grandfather that ever time you shot a M/L you blew down the barrel to soften the fouling and check the nipple. Now our club has a rule against this as it is DANGEROUS and UNNECESSARY and the same fellow who pushed through the rule had me make a blow tube for his Sharps. I don't fire long strings without a wipe so I don't use a blow tube. I have never seen a blow tube in any buff hunters kit or in any military supply list.

[Black Prince]

Hi Pat. Happy to be here and I promise to behave.

I forgot to answer part of the origibal question on this thread which was can gas checked bullets be used in lieu of over powder wads. The answer is yes, and they can be used very effectively. I shoot in my Sharps 45-70 Lyman cast bullet # 457671 which is a 45 caliber gas check bullet originaly designed for the .458 Winchester Magnum and it is an accurate bullet. I use it with straight black powder and with duplex loads and without any wads. It is a fine bullet for general use in most 45 caliber rifles. It has minimal grease grooves for BP use however since it was designed for smokeless powder so be sure to use a good lube on it if you shoot it with BP. I use home made Emmerett's on mine and it works fine.

I also shoot RCBS bullet #45-300-FN which is a gas check design with smokeless and black powder and in BP duplex with no wads. It performs very well also in all applications. For a fun to shoot load, try that bullet with 12 grains of Unique and a tuff of Kapock or Dacron over the powder. It does not make a lot of noise but shoots surprisingly well out to 300 yards. It will also kill deer sized critters at that range when hit properly. BTW, same thing applies to it as far as minimal grease grooves are concerned.

Of course, any plain based cast bullet should have an over powder wad to protect it from gas erosion. I've tried loads with and without wads and the loads using wads always out perform those without, usually by at least half the group size.

Hope this helps, but you can load and shoot just a few bullets with gas checks and readily see for yourself if what I've said here works for you or not. All the best.