What would you pay to know?

[Rooster]

What would you be willing to pay to know the composition of your alloy based on a lab analysis? I'm just curious as to what would be considered a fair price for the big 3. $30? Maybe I should call the University Chemistry Dept. and check the going rate.

[257 Shooter]

Rooster, There is a group buy going right now that answers that. For the current alloy it is only $1.58 per lb.

[SciFiJim]

I think he is looking to see what people will pay to have their own alloy analyzed. Rotometals charges $79 for the service.

I was curious, so about a month ago I called to get a quote on an analyzer. I figured if it was only a coupla thousand then it could eventually be payed for at $5 a pop to analyze alloy. I suffered severe sticker shock. The analyzer that Rotometals uses runs about $25K for the entry model. After that I decided I was not that curious about the mix of my alloy.

In answer to the OP, I'm cheap. I might pay $5 each for an analysis. At that price I would be willing to send several samples to be tested.

[runfiverun]

the scrap yards usually hae a portable one and i doubt it costs 25k,seein as how they can't ever find it.

[SciFiJim]

I googled the model listed on Rotometals and then contacted the manufacturer. A sales rep returned my call. There are two models of their hand held analyzer. One costs $25K and the other costs $35K. If I had one it would live in the safe.

If someone can find a MUCH less expensive one They could probably pay for it by charging 5 or 10 bucks to have sample boolits analyzed.

[sqlbullet]

after reading this thread the first time I did a little research into x-ray flourescence analyzers. There are a number of different companies that make handheld models. The ones made by bruker seem to be at a great price point. Their's is $19,000.00, rather than $25,000.00. While I would think a 25% reduction in price is a bunch, it isn't enough for me to justify. I ran the numbers a bunch of different ways.

The sales rep from Bruker I spoke with was a great guy though. He called me yesterday to say he was in town, and wanted to see my operation and show me the sorter. So, we chatted for about an hour and I got to play with the sorter. It is pretty cool.

Couple of issues I see however. First, it only measures the first 100 atoms or so of depth. So, on a given ingot I had cast from isotope lead, that I had estimated having 3-4% SB and .5-1% SN, it gave a variety of readings. It was a 1lbs. ingot from a lyman mold. On either side, it read pure lead. I knew this was not accurate since it's solidus point was around 500° and liquidus was before 550°.

I tested the bottom, that is the side exposed when it cools. This side read 3.5% Sb, 1%Sn and bunch of trace stuff (Ti, Mn, Fe) and 95% Pb. I assume all the trace elements are impurities and backscatter.

If I tested the top, I got about the same results, but without the impurities.

However, the readings were not particularly consistent ingot to ingot from the same refining batch. Varied ±1%. The rep told me that a variance of ±.5% is to be expected.

All in all, very interesting. He had several other contacts in my area that he was demoing the unit too. One of the leads he had he thought may make the unit available for short term rental. I indicated to him that I would probably be up for an annual rental for one day at $100, just to verify that all my lead is the same basic composition year over year.

And, if I win the lottery, I am definitely buying one!

[Rooster]

That is exactly what I meant Jim. What about doing it the old fashioned way with acid/indicators/whatever. We deal with percentage levels in our alloys and I would think it could be done this way inexpensively enough.

[garandsrus]

The guy at the scrap yard I go to has tested my ingots for no charge. He uses the hand held gun thing. He said that it costs about $25K so they do keep it locked up.

John

[Zbench]

Sadly, the way you test for metals is through a technique called Atomic Absorption Analysis. You burn a sample of the metal in a flame and the resulting gases are analyzed to give the metals present. No home test kit style of analysis is possible. The unit that provides this analysis probably costs more than the Xray scattering device.

Pete

[sqlbullet]

Not to mention the dangers involved in intentionally vaporizing lead.

The 'on the cheap' method does exist. Check hardness, solidus and liquidus points, and specific gravity. Compare these to the charts for known alloys and infer what you have from there.

Using this method I had predicted as accurately as the XFR analyzer for two of the three samples we tested. The third I had not yet performed specific gravity or controlled hardness tests on, so I consider my failure to accurately determine it's constituents mitigated.

[StarMetal]

after reading this thread the first time I did a little research into x-ray flourescence analyzers. There are a number of different companies that make handheld models. The ones made by bruker seem to be at a great price point. Their's is $19,000.00, rather than $25,000.00. While I would think a 25% reduction in price is a bunch, it isn't enough for me to justify. I ran the numbers a bunch of different ways.

The sales rep from Bruker I spoke with was a great guy though. He called me yesterday to say he was in town, and wanted to see my operation and show me the sorter. So, we chatted for about an hour and I got to play with the sorter. It is pretty cool.

Couple of issues I see however. First, it only measures the first 100 atoms or so of depth. So, on a given ingot I had cast from isotope lead, that I had estimated having 3-4% SB and .5-1% SN, it gave a variety of readings. It was a 1lbs. ingot from a lyman mold. On either side, it read pure lead. I knew this was not accurate since it's solidus point was around 500° and liquidus was before 550°.

I tested the bottom, that is the side exposed when it cools. This side read 3.5% Sb, 1%Sn and bunch of trace stuff (Ti, Mn, Fe) and 95% Pb. I assume all the trace elements are impurities and backscatter.

If I tested the top, I got about the same results, but without the impurities.

However, the readings were not particularly consistent ingot to ingot from the same refining batch. Varied ±1%. The rep told me that a variance of ±.5% is to be expected.

All in all, very interesting. He had several other contacts in my area that he was demoing the unit too. One of the leads he had he thought may make the unit available for short term rental. I indicated to him that I would probably be up for an annual rental for one day at $100, just to verify that all my lead is the same basic composition year over year.

And, if I win the lottery, I am definitely buying one!

Did you happen to cut an ingot in half and test that? Just wondering.

Joe

[Zbench]

Not to be a contrarian, but measuring physical characteristics can not definitively determine what is in an unknown alloy. You can certainly make inferences, but there could be many things that alter the melting point and SG. For instance, how do you know it isn't Zinc or Bismuth that causes it to melt at a lower temp? There is no way of knowing. I don't consider measuring physical characteristics as a "test" like titration is a test to determine acid or base content.

Not to say you might guess right _sometimes_, but nothing is as good as AA or the Xray test we are talking about.

Regards,

Pete

[sqlbullet]

Did you happen to cut an ingot in half and test that? Just wondering. - No, didn't have enough time.


nothing is as good as AA or the Xray test we are talking about. - I agree z-bench. My statements were in response to the question of what you can do cheap. The truth is, right now, on the cheap, all you can do is make an inference...A word we both used to describe these types of conclusions.

[Acronn]

You can learn a lot about the metal just by denting it with a small hammer. After you get the feel for it, you get instant feedback. Of course I have no idea what the actual percentages are this way, so it is not very scientific, but when you tap on that piece of lead, you get a lot of information by the way it sounds and the dent it leaves.

[fatnhappy]

Sadly, the way you test for metals is through a technique called Atomic Absorption Analysis. You burn a sample of the metal in a flame and the resulting gases are analyzed to give the metals present. No home test kit style of analysis is possible. The unit that provides this analysis probably costs more than the Xray scattering device.

Pete

Not exactly. The atomic absorbtion test is quite different. It was used in the US vs. Gwaltney case (which I'm sure deputy Al remembers). Put simply, the samples are subjected to nuetron bombardment in a reactor then the relative radioactivity is measured to determine differentiation from a control sample. I believe the technique you're refering to is mass spectrometer where the sample is ionized and accelerated in a magnetic field so the differences in atomic masses of the elemental constituents can be measured.


To answer the original question, not much. I'm more interested in alloy hardness.

[carpetman]

Only $25K that's cheap. I think that Ken should buy 4 or 5 of them to loan out to the members here and we could use it and send it on. JD Henry could be put in charge of the disribution. We have an unknown alloy that is shooting good,not leading or giving any problems, but we should find out what this mystery stuff is. We buy muffin tins to save a buck on an ingot mold, but that's a huge savings. These things are so cheap, how could we not buy em? Ken, they might cut you a little slack when you buy several of them for us. I suspect JD would perform his services cheap maybe even free, if not the guy with the hammer mold could do it.
Make an inference. Reminds me of a friend that bought Emu's when they were going to be the big money crop. He had to have their sex determined to insure them. We had a big trailer load we took to the vet. The vet stuck his arm up their---well you can figure it out. Felt around and would say this one has not developed enough to tell for sure--my best guess is a male for example. A very few he could tell but most were just a guess. I think he was getting $50 a bird for this guess. I told my friend I'd flip a coin and give him my guess for $25.

[dromia]

A little bit of ignorance can be no bad thing, I still like to think of boolit casting as more of an art than a science.

For me some vagueness is interesting.

Absolutes, if they exist, are not.
So no pennies from me for such a service. :cbpour:

[badgeredd]

Let me put it this way...I paid $8.25 for a hunk of mystery metal that weighed 35 pounds. If it cost $10 to have it analyzed it now coast $18.25. What have I gained by having the correct analysis and will it make better boolits if I know? I think not...so cheap Edd says "just cast it if it appears to have no bad material in it...like zinc." Yeah it'd be nice to know but in my mind it really wouldn't be of great value unless I was talking about a much larger quantity...like 500 pounds or something greater. :grin:

Edd

[TAWILDCATT]

what ever.who cares as long as it casts good bullets and shoots good.It does make interesting conversation about what ifs.in the end its a waste of time.

[sqlbullet]

As lead continues to become more scarce, it will be less and less a waste of time. Soon, the waste will be any bullet that isn't perfect, and that doesn't perform exactly as required, internally, externally and terminally.

But, as badger points out, that cost of relative to the material to which the analysis applies. I have already gone on record with a value of $100/year. In the last year, I have acquired about 5 tons of lead, half of which I have resold to offset my costs. That works out to 2¢/lbs to know the composition.

[looseprojectile]

thumbnail will have to keep on doing what it has done for about fiftyfive years.
My boolits have most always fit my expectations using the scratch test. I don't even have a hardness tester. I have sent many hundred pounds of mystery metal downrange. I am not any less entertained or fulfilled by not knowing what it was.
Not trying to rain on your parade but it can't be worth as much as a nickel for me to know what the physical composition of my boolit metal is. In my case ignorance is bliss. That only applies to boolit metal at this time. Your mileage may vary.
Just interjecting a contrasting opinion!


Life is good