Cheaper gas checks?

[44mag1]

Im sure theres an expert here that can answer this question. Will a gascheck with a hole in the bottom work any different than a normal one? If the manufactures are raising the prices due to metal costs, one with a hole in it should cost less.

[felix]

Nope, unless the hole is so large that the check stays in the barrel leaving the lead to exit. ... felix

[odoh]

Im sure theres an expert here that can answer this question. Will a gascheck with a hole in the bottom work any different than a normal one? If the manufactures are raising the prices due to metal costs, one with a hole in it should cost less.

Assuming he (manufacture) makes the holes and doesn't charge for the labor/equipt acquisition to do so?

[XWrench3]

gas checks are way over priced to begin with. the initial tooling expense has been paid for years ago. and the little bit of copper sheet they use to make 1000 gas checks certainly does not cost anywhere near what they get for these things. if the "frechex" tool really catches on, then, as sales plumit, the price may come down. but until then, you and i will just have to pay through the nose for these tiny little things. a realistic price should be in the $ 15.00 per 1000 range! and that is at retail.

[sav300]

XWrench3,go to castbulletenginering (CBE) and check out his gas checks here in OZ.

[pdawg_shooter]

Why buy checks when paper works even better?

[bigdog454]

What about using a card wad, like the old 410 shotshell card wads? I was thinking that they could be used in straight wall cartridges like the 45-70, 44 mag 30 carbine etc. if the proper size was used they could replace the copper gas check, would be easy to make and cheap. Maybe they could be used in a bottle neck case if their was a way (glue) to fasten them to the boolit.

[DANCELIONDANCE]

Why not plastic ... like in shotguns ?

[Rex]

Boys, some years ago I heard all about "soft checks". I got excited and scrounged the styrofoam trays that meat is packed in, flared and sharpened an old case mouth and cut away. Man, I had the world by the tail. Then I shot them! Found a few of these checks on the ground and they were mashed flat but not burned. They made no difference at all in barrel leading or anything else that I could see. They did save components as you spend a lot of time cutting them instead of shooting.
Rex

[qajaq59]

Sooner or later FreeChexs or someone else is going to come up with a real quick and easy way to make them . They're already improving them. When there's a need someone always fills it to make a serious buck.

[BABore]

Im sure theres an expert here that can answer this question. Will a gascheck with a hole in the bottom work any different than a normal one? If the manufactures are raising the prices due to metal costs, one with a hole in it should cost less.

Adding a hole would require modification to the tooling. Not only would the punches have to be changed, but more than likely the whole die. Currently the formed GC's get pushed out of the button and into a container or conveyor, and the web (whats left of the coil strip) is passed through. With punching out a hole, now you have a seperate round disk to expell seperately from the GC. You sure wouldn't want to be sorting those. It's something that must be ejected cleanly so you don't get a buildup and crunch the die. You would also have to contend with a potential burr from punching the hole as well as possible distorsion issues to the inside corner.

The mfg. is buying guilded copper coil stock at say $1 a lb (guess). He will probably get less than 5% of the cost for scrap price. They also now have additional handling and paperwork.

Bottom line is the GC's would cost you more, not less.

[odoh]

Well put ~

[Down South]

Cheaper gas checks = Gator checks and as soon as Pat finishes his check maker there will be even mo cheaper checks.

[felix]

The best check material other than tough copper would be depleted uranium. The cost could be different, but upwards or downwards? I like the idea of increased weight that the uranium would provide, making boolit design easier as in making the center of pressure overlap the center of gravity while increasing the lube capacity. ... felix

[Leftoverdj]

Been done. One kind had a large hole through the center so it could be placed in the mould while casting. A bigger pain in the butt is hard to imagine.

The other type is used by swagers. It's a simple disk with a small hole in the center. Lead is extruded through the hole to rivet the disk in place.

In either case, the savings in material is inconsequential.

[StarMetal]

It's not the cost of raw material that has risen the costs. Sure, when a manufacturer knows there is an increase in raw materials they don't waste any time gouging the customer. I believe the rise in costs to be manufacturing cost increases. That and gouging. Think about it fellows, there's not enough metal in those checks to make a box of them cost in the 30 of dollars bracket.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

The maker of the brass has to make a proffit.

The transporter of the brass to the GC maker has to make a proffit above his expenses.

The maker of the GC has to make a proffit above his expenses including the excess material not used in the GC.

The transporter of the GC from the maker to the wholesaler has to make a proffit above his expenses.

The wholesaler has to make a proffit above his expenses when he sells them to the dealer.

The transporter from the wholesaler to the dealer has to make a proffit above his expenses.

The dealer has to make a proffit above his expenses when he sells them to you.

Now you want to wonder why that small box of 1,000 GCs costs so much?

I am still buying some GCs but I make my own .22, .30, .31 and 8mm caliber GCs. I will get the tooling to make .25s, 35s, 375s and .45s when available.

Larry Gibson

[jonk]

It's not the cost of raw material that has risen the costs. Sure, when a manufacturer knows there is an increase in raw materials they don't waste any time gouging the customer. I believe the rise in costs to be manufacturing cost increases. That and gouging. Think about it fellows, there's not enough metal in those checks to make a box of them cost in the 30 of dollars bracket.

Joe

I never thought of it as gouging. Finding that you can sell the product you make at a higher profit margin for a given production output is good market economics. I fully support Hornady charging $30 or $300 for a box of checks if they can get it.

I also support the free market to come along with either a competing product or a homemade option to force them to some sembalance of reality.

I am very wary of anyone who suggests anyone gouges anything unless it is a daily staple of life (food, water, shelter, etc).

Now that said, I'm not trying to be on a high horse here. I totally agree that the cost of a box of checks is rather, ahm, high.

As to the question, no, it would not save us money to have a hole punched in the check due to the extra machining; just like FMJ bullets are ususally cheaper than HP bullets. But yes, the would likely work just as well. Just like a condom bullet with a nekkid base (think M2 bullet) works, so would the hollow center gc.

[Larry Gibson]

I have to agree with Jonk, I don't consider it as "gouging" either. Neither do I consider it "gouging" when I buy a box of old bullets that's been sitting on the shelf for a long time and find 2-3 newer price stickers on it.

I also failed to answer the question of this thread and there again i agree with jonk and all the others that say "no" to any possible savings.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Oh horse hockey Jonk and Gibson. You better be wary of me then Jonk. It's gouging, it's gouging, it's gouging. I hope you have to pay out of your nose for everything you buy.!!!!!! Not...just teasing you. But it's still gouging. Just like they did with gasoline in my area of TN....and it got reported to the state too and they did something about it.

I think most FMJ bullets are cheaper because they aren't made to the degree of accuracy as say match bullets or premium hunting/varmint bullets. In other words they can just whiz bang them out and not have to worry about holding a precise jacket thickness.

Too bad you have those on the forum that believe aluminum gas checks will wear your barrel out prematurely...cause I was going to make free checks for y'all. Not now. :kidding::kidding::kidding:

Joe

[helg]

Copper costs $2.76/lb, http://www.metalprices.com/

30 cal Hornady gas check (.017") weighs 4.5 grains.

The above numbers give price of the copper in one GC as .17 cents. The material cost is less than 10% of the check.

[mrbill2]

Why don't we all stop shooting and just make gas checks. If it cost us next to nothing to make, we can all be RICH.

[Bret4207]

Copper costs $2.76/lb, http://www.metalprices.com/

30 cal Hornady gas check (.017") weighs 4.5 grains.

The above numbers give price of the copper in one GC as .17 cents. The material cost is less than 10% of the check.

$.0017, not $.17. That's 17 thousandths of a cent per check. That's assuming Hornady buys their GC material, which probably isn't straight copper, at the price you quote. Could be much higher or lower.

[StarMetal]

$.0017, not $.17. That's 17 thousandths of a cent per check. That's assuming Hornady buys their GC material, which probably isn't straight copper, at the price you quote. Could be much higher or lower.

Like I said, price gouging. Surely it doesn't cost them that much to make either.

Joe

[Larry Gibson]

Like I said, price gouging. Surely it doesn't cost them that much to make either.

Joe

Joe

Hornady doesn't reap the "gouged" price between what the cost is and what you buy them off the shelf for. I know you don't like to really read my posts sometimes but go back and read my first post here. Then think of how many may "gouge" along the way. Also consider the industry uses a "percentage" not a fixed amount as a mark up to cover costs and proffit. Thus the more a product costs the greater the amount of markup. Works the same with a gallon of gasoline; the higher the price the greater the increase increment because the increment is base on a percentage of the cost.

Larry Gibson

[StarMetal]

Joe

Hornady doesn't reap the "gouged" price between what the cost is and what you buy them off the shelf for. I know you don't like to really read my posts sometimes but go back and read my first post here. Then think of how many may "gouge" along the way. Also consider the industry uses a "percentage" not a fixed amount as a mark up to cover costs and proffit. Thus the more a product costs the greater the amount of markup. Works the same with a gallon of gasoline; the higher the price the greater the increase increment because the increment is base on a percentage of the cost.

Larry Gibson

Larry,

Doesn't matter who's doing it, it's getting done. I also feel this Obama Scare Guns/Accessories Buy had to do with it too.

Joe

[qajaq59]

Doesn't matter who's doing it, it's getting done. I also feel this Obama Scare Guns/Accessories Buy had to do with it too. You have a point there. I just read in our local paper that in 2003 the county was issuing 15 CW permits a month. In 2009 the monthly issues were 134. No wonder ammo and components are going up in price! Low supply and heavy demand are a powerful force for price increases!

[monadnock#5]

I remember reading an article many years ago about the McDonald's empire. The story told, was that on sandwiches they make 0, as in ZERO profit, strictly break even priced. Cold drinks, much the same. Most of the profit goes to Coca-Cola. French fries? Ahh...now we're getting somewhere. The grease is used over and over again. The equipment suffers little wear, The potatoes are trucked in whole, by the trailer load, where they get cleaned, peeled and sliced by Mac's personnel. Well over 90% profit. If MacDonald's couldn't buy potatoes for whatever reason, at a price they're willing to pay, they would quickly go out of business.

Gas checks aren't nearly as tasty as french fries, but they do have a lot in common.

If you want a good deal from Hornady, buy an LNL progressive the next time they run a big sale with all the bells and whistles......oh wait, NO... that won't work worth a dang will it? [smilie=1:

[Mavrick]

The other day, I was at a gun show. I was standing next to a guy as he bought a carton of primers...at $100.00!!! "That's some high, isn't it?" he asked. "You don't have to buy 'em," he answered, taking them back. "No, no, I'll take 'em." He wasn't gouged. All ya gotta do is NOT buy them. (unless it's a staple of life) The guy obviously had too much money!
Point #2 is that the material is usually NOT the reason a product costs, it's the LABOR throughout the system. The way to profit is to increase productivity.
Those that say aluminum gcs wear barrels are operating on the idea that bullets or boolits wear barrels...Not so...powder under pressure with temperature causes wear. With air gauges and Hawkeye borescopes, we COULD test the theories.
Have fun,
Gene

[MT Gianni]

I remember reading an article many years ago about the McDonald's empire. The story told, was that on sandwiches they make 0, as in ZERO profit, strictly break even priced. Cold drinks, much the same. Most of the profit goes to Coca-Cola. French fries? Ahh...now we're getting somewhere. The grease is used over and over again. The equipment suffers little wear, The potatoes are trucked in whole, by the trailer load, where they get cleaned, peeled and sliced by Mac's personnel. Well over 90% profit. If MacDonald's couldn't buy potatoes for whatever reason, at a price they're willing to pay, they would quickly go out of business.

Gas checks aren't nearly as tasty as french fries, but they do have a lot in common.

If you want a good deal from Hornady, buy an LNL progressive the next time they run a big sale with all the bells and whistles......oh wait, NO... that won't work worth a dang will it? [smilie=1:

I think soda mark up is well over 5000% even with free refills. It used to be the cup cost more than the drink. McD's fries are all made from mashed potatoes at there plant and formed into shape then frozen & sent to stores. Lots of mark up there too.
The price of bread has rarely been tied to the price of wheat. Just a fact of life for the farmer. Unless wheat is super high there isn't a nickel's worth of the cost of wheat in a loaf of whole grain. Tooling and labor are the gas check cost and I'm happy to shoot them when I need to and use a different boolit when I don't.

[helg]

$.0017, not $.17. That's 17 thousandths of a cent per check.

Hmm. $.0017 is .17 cents, not 17 thousandths of a cent.

1 lb is 7000 grains. With 4.5 grain gas check, 1lb is 1556 gas checks.

If 1556 GCs cost $2.76, then one is $.0017 or .17 cents.

With $25 for pack of 1000 gas checks, one GC is 2.5 cents.

Copper cost is less than 7% of the gas check, but more than 6%.

There is a funny recording on the issue:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2isSJKntbg

[BABore]

When you look at GC material cost, you don't just look at the end product. Stock comes in a large coil. You feed it into and through the press, Usually the first couple feet is chopped off because its bent over the banding strap to retain it. Scrap. The strip has to be wider than the disc punch out of it. Scrap. If you stamp a 1" diameter disc, from a 1 inch square, you scrap 22% of that 1" square. You must have a web or space between discs to carry the web. Scrap. Material scrapped from a coil is a constant, and figured in to the product cost.

Labor cost and fuel/energy prices are the bulk of the increases. Energy cost would be primary. From smelting to the UPS man. It's all passed on.

[IV8888]

Looks like there are several posts regarding this subject.

Free gas checks seem to be an enigma...Enter the Freechex II system.

Here are my initial results:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY129CmjGHs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PApTqSExrLY&feature=channel

[Dogchaser]

When you look at GC material cost, you don't just look at the end product. Stock comes in a large coil. You feed it into and through the press, Usually the first couple feet is chopped off because its bent over the banding strap to retain it. Scrap. The strip has to be wider than the disc punch out of it. Scrap. If you stamp a 1" diameter disc, from a 1 inch square, you scrap 22% of that 1" square. You must have a web or space between discs to carry the web. Scrap. Material scrapped from a coil is a constant, and figured in to the product cost.

Labor cost and fuel/energy prices are the bulk of the increases. Energy cost would be primary. From smelting to the UPS man. It's all passed on.

Add in punches and dies, boxes and labels and a light bill for the building, plus they could have bought the raw materials at the peak of the copper market.

I'm sure the raw material takes a while to hit the shelf.

I'm still shooting $11 per K primers from the first primer scare.:Fire:

[Blacksmith]

Since many are talking about price gouging I would like to ask a question. At what point do wages start to gouge? I have heard of CEO's making hundreds of millions of dollars and always thought 100 people at one million dollars each could probably do more.

Since many janitors get paid minimum wage for sweeping the floor I don't guess that is gouging. Now I did hear that the janitors at the local auto plant, one of two that have gone out of business, were being paid $27.00 per hour plus UAW benefits. So is that gouging? Couldn't 4 or 5 minimum wage sweepers keep the floors cleaner?

At Hornady I expect there is a well paid worker operating the gas check machine and very well paid Tool and Die Makers making and servicing the tooling and even the CEO of Hornady probably making more than any of us will ever see; and a part of their wages are in each box of gas checks.

From the Hornady web site


Hornady Manufacturing has also given generously within the community of Grand Island, Nebraska, where we make our home. Organizations supported include the Crane Meadows Nature Center, Stuhr Museum, United Way, the Platte River Charity Shoot and the list goes on.

Hornady is a founding member of the Hunting and Shooting Sport Heritage Fund, and Steve Hornady served as one of the first presidents of the organization. We support or serve on The National Shooting Sports Foundation (NSSF) the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI), The National Rifle Association, National 4-H Shooting Sports Foundation, and many others. As a member of the shooting and hunting sports industry, Hornady realizes the need to give back to the sports that keep us in business and maintain our heritage.

So if you want to stop the gouging on gas checks just who should take the reduction in pay or which charity should be told to go begging elsewhere. Please state with your answer what you do for a living and how much you are paid so we can determine if your products cost too much and if your wages should be cut.

If you don't like the price of gas checks:
1. Make your own.
2. Buy J word bullets.
3. Shoot reduced loads.
4. Don't use them and keep cleaning the lead out.

Blacksmith