.475 or .500

[bearcove]

Been pondering a ruger 5-shot conversion. .475 or .500 linebaugh? I've had a FA 454 for 15 years so recoil is understood. I think the linebaughs might be less harsh or abrupt with some loads. I spend time on the beaches and rivers in Alaska fishing. This will hopefully never be needed for bear protection, but that is what its for. Well, I'd have to take it hunting too.[smilie=l:

Bear protection is serious for me because my kids are starting to go with me. A bluff charge can change fast if someone breaks and runs. Can't tell what kids will do till it happens.

Opinions?

[dubber123]

Penetration is said to be better with the .475. The few guys I've talked to that have both usually say the .475 is easier to work loads up for. I only have experience with the .475, but will say I find it very flexible and accurate.

You won't make a .38 out of it, but thats not what they were meant for. As far as down loading for practice, I have a load that fired a 400 gr boolit at only 500 fps. It shot in an inch at 50 yds., so that shows some of the flexibility.

I imagine either would be a fine choice. Have you picked a gunsmith yet? A BFR .475 would only run you about $700.... A nice custom gun sure would be....nice though!

[Lloyd Smale]

i dont know which to recomend. I guess you really cant go wrong with your choise. Id say that the 475 is a bit more versitile and a bit cheaper to buy components for. It has an adavange in penetration with most loads. The 500 will shoot bigger and heavier bullets and do it at lower pressures so its a bit easier on the gun and it will put more of a smack on an animal. I dearly love the 475 but if grizzly protection was a real consern id probably take one of my 500s. Bear arent that hard to penetrate and id like the added smack of a bigger bullet. Both will do the job though and if loaded to there full potential dont expect any reduction in recoil compared to the 454. Load a 450 grain bullet to 1300 fps in the 500 and it will outrecoil both the 454 and the 475. But bottom line there is they all recoil heavily and i dont think if you can master one of them the other two will give you problems or give you relief from recoil either.

[S.R.Custom]

...Bear protection is serious for me because my kids are starting to go with me. A bluff charge can change fast if someone breaks and runs. Can't tell what kids will do till it happens.

How old are the children? Seems to me that it wouldn't take much more than a .38 to protect a bear from a couple of kids.

[Mark]

A BFR .475 would only run you about $700....

or a Freedom Arms in 475 for "slightly" more money. Have you considered the 500 Wyoming Express? Keep the donor gun and buy a Freedom Arms.
Mark

[dsmjon]

A .38 to protect kids from a bear? Are you talking of a .38 special? That'll just piss the bear off, unless he could deliver the round through an eyeball. :)

To the OP: Are your choices limited to just hand cannons? I'd think a short bbl 12ga with full rifling, pistol grip and a sling would make a handy, readily accessable big lead-chunker with moderate cartridge capacity.

How are AK state laws concerning the line between "hunting" and "protection" if you're in the woods during the off season?

[targetshootr]

If the first shot is to make noise, either one would be loud enough. The 475 is probably more versatile though, from what I've read.

There's a good bear charge stopped by noise on youtube, search for something like Easton Bowhunting.

[dsmjon]

For NC bear, I don't worry about needing anything more than a loud yell to send the black bears a running.

Go try the same with a Grizzley or Brown bear, and at least give it the curtousy of dowsing yourself with some BBQ sauce. I'm not saying it wouldn't happen, I'm saying that the different spp. of bear have ENTIRELY different demeanors.

[dubber123]

A .38 to protect kids from a bear? Are you talking of a .38 special? That'll just piss the bear off, unless he could deliver the round through an eyeball. :)

To the OP: Are your choices limited to just hand cannons? I'd think a short bbl 12ga with full rifling, pistol grip and a sling would make a handy, readily accessable big lead-chunker with moderate cartridge capacity.

How are AK state laws concerning the line between "hunting" and "protection" if you're in the woods during the off season?

He said, "protect the BEAR from the kids".... :lol:

[dsmjon]

Dangit it and my old eyeballs... I'll be damned if that aint funny.. sounds like a couple of kids I deal with every morning, LOL ..

[TDC]

I agree with what Lloyd Smale and dsmjon said......

I guess I have to smile when i read some of the posts related to firearms used for truly dangerous game.... I can say from experience you don't worry about or consider recoil or noise report when confronted with an aggressive animal that can kill you in a heartbeat. Grizzlies and Browns certainly fit into that category as history has often recorded.

Don't buy the "bench rest accuracy" argument for being under gunned either. The extreme apprehension, adrenaline pumping, heart racing fear won't permit you time to even think about precise shot placement with an angry charging 1000lb animal that can attack through dense brush at 35 to 40 mph.....

When you're intentionally hunting a dangerous animal and have adequate backup a hunter can play with a variety of guns and calibers. But when your firearms choice is simply defensive and the only option between life and death is that one firearm it's a much more critical choice. Even the biggest, baddest hand cannons available would be useful but marginal in such a situation. But because of their carry practicality they would certainly be my choice too.

I own a S&W 500 6 1/2 and that pistol combined with forum member Ranger Rick's 700 gr. bullets would be my first choice. I guarantee you'd do more than just pi$$ the bear off with your first shot and should certainly be provided additional time to place some additional rounds in it if needed before it could do any damage.

JMHO.....

TC

[odis]

Why not a Ruger SRH in 480, a 400 gr. bullet that penetrates completely probably kills as good as a 700 gr. without causing temporary paralysis to the shooting hand.

[ole 5 hole group]

Another option you might consider is the 5" Ruger NM Blackhawk 45 Colt - Bisley model/conversion if available. With 310 grain hard cast bullets at 1,250fps it is up to the job you have in mind and the blackhawk is easily carried. The 475 Linebaugh is terrific as are the various 500's and those hand cannons certainly give greater peace of mind around large bears and that's a good thing. The blast and concussion of the hand cannons without hearing protection is another matter to consider if you intend on ever firing "warning shots".:?

[dsmjon]

Warning shots go into the forehead ;)

[ole 5 hole group]

I totally agree dsmjon - the only "warning shots" I fire are those that miss my intended target. I've fired hundreds of warning shots at ruffed grouse with various shotguns.

[Bullshop]

I have had to go in and settle things with wounded griz a couple times with ol B00 but just one time in 20 years of dodging bears as a timber faller did I have to kill one in self defence with a hand gun. Did right nicely with a 5" redhawk and Elmers boolit n load, 250gn Keith and 21gn 2400. First shot single action through the head and the next three double action, just tracking the front sight. Range was about twice as far as I could pee,then. That would be a little closer now.
After that I went to the 454, then the 500 Linebauge, hot 45 colts and all but now back to the 44. Just because it was cheep I did recently pick up a BFR in 475 and it is a wonderfully accurate gun but seems to me a bit too heavy to carry. I am shooting 430's at about 1300 and would have absolute confidance against any bear. As much as the gun is important in a tight spot so is the metal the shooter is made of. Its easy to say what you would do but often quite differant when things are shakin down. Dont nobody know for sure about themself till they been there. When I had that little bear thingy I was kool as a cucumber when it happened but after it was over my knees started shaking so bad I fell back on my butt and took a few minutes to apreciate being alive, have a dip a snoos then on to the next tree.
BIC/BS

[freedom475]

When I ordered my FA 83, I called Freedom Arms and wanted a 500WE with a 4 1/2 inch barrel for packing in Grizzly country... After a long talk with one of the shooters/builders in the factory I was talked into the 475L with the 6 in barrel

He (can't remember his name offhand) told me that the 500WE was totally deafening...said he didn't even like to be around it when it went off because of the concusion. And the recoil was no fun, He told me his wife even shot the 475 (she must be quite an experienced shooter).

He also told me that the short barrel was way too "Whippy" for his likeing..

I ordered the 475L Prem. with the 6inch barrel and have never wanted more...I sold the 83 454...found that the recoil of the 454(properly loaded:p) was acctually faster.

As Dubber123 stated...the 400 cast can be driven as slow 500fps and I have taken the 400gr. cast to almost 1600fps...Penitratrion is a given.. I saw the 400 at 1150 go completely through a Buffalo, break its shoulder and raise a huge dust cloud on the other side.

[Lloyd Smale]

dont know who you talked to there but ive shot them all. A 500 we is a great round and is about identical in power noise and muzzle blast as a 500 linebaugh when the linebaugh is loaded to its full potential. Personaly if blindfolded and given a 500we a 500 linebaugh and a 475 in equal guns all loaded to full power i probably couldnt tell you the differnce in which i was shooting. If any differnce its sure not enough to consider one of the others. As to short barrels being whippy. A short barrel the same diameter is actually more rigid then a longer one. Thats why bench rest shooters have used short fat barrels for years. The we is a round that impresses me. My buddy has one and its a real shooter. Id swap my 454 in a second for one if anyone is interested.

[dubber123]

Lloyd, I've talked to Wes a good bit, and by "whippy" he means the way the muzzle snaps up under recoil. My 4-3/4 certainly seems whippy to me. The only other .475 I have fired is my brother 6-1/2" BFR, and the difference is night and day. I will shoot his 1 handed, I won't mine. Some may be the difference in the grip styles though.

[targetshootr]

Bear charge stopped by warning shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw

[ole 5 hole group]

Couple things to put everything in perspective - 1st when you see cubs anyone familiar with bears will know mama is close by, so you better prepare yourself for mama quickly and back on out at the same time. They surely were preparing once they saw the cubs. 2nd - the charge took place well beyond the 8 feet the commentor talks about and once mama hits water she slowed way down and with the muzzle blast and water resistance she gave up the "bluff" charge. In the thickets it might have been a different story but as with everything - as long as it ends well for everyone we can put whatever twist to the story we like and this is my "twist".

[44man]

None of you fellas don't consider one thing, you want a HEAVY gun to damp out all the shakes and quivers when the bear is almost on you. :kidding:
Them big things with short barrels that you try to hit the bear with using one hand is a great aid to the bear, gettin knocked out from the crease in the head makes you easy meat! :D
Remember to wear Depends in bear country too. :bigsmyl2:
I think I will stay home anyway, but to get serious, anything starting with a 4 or 5 would make me feel better.
Yeah, I watched one of the gun makers shoot a short cannon with one hand. It went past his left ear. He had enough control to keep from planting the barrel in his head, thing would have killed him. Forget a second shot.
Something else, a one hand shot will go so high from barrel rise you are going to overshoot so you better aim at the ground to start with.
Ask how I know? I had a nice buck come in on the wrong side so I stuck my 7-1/2" barrel BFR .475 out with one hand---shot clean over him. Takes a darn tight hold even with 2 hands on the gun. I can't imagine a little short .500.

[targetshootr]

the muzzle blast and water resistance she gave up the "bluff" charge.

I'm no expert but I would assume with cubs around, they don't make bluff charges. And that one has "Dead biped" written all over her face.

[Frozone]

Bear charge stopped by warning shot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMbnmLLnsfw

More likly a miss than a warning but that's a good spin.

[ole 5 hole group]

I'm no expert but I would assume with cubs around, they don't make bluff charges. And that one has "Dead biped" written all over her face.

I've never been charged by a bear - bluff or otherwise, but I believe the vast majority of charges by a sow with cubs is a "bluff charge" - most people I've personally heard talk about bluff charges were wildlife personnel who were in the field on some sort of count when they stumbled into a blackie with cubs and the sow usually made a bluff charge as they were backing away. The video just shows a "concerned" mama who doesn't appreciate any animal, including man, around her babies and if the guys wouldn't have been hollering at the cubs she may have never known they were there. As far as telling the difference between a bluff and a full out charge prior to the pull up - well, good luck on that one, as the wildlife people just said they screamed stop or some similiar word at the top of their lungs and none of them knew why they didn't crap their pants, as they were that scared.

[dsmjon]

Bears are not stupid animals. IMEO, this video shows a mama bear showing that she is full-on ready to defend her cubs. I doubt that man was making a "warning shot", I think he plain missed. Put yourself in his shoes. You're in a rubber boat with ZERO cover and an animal more than capable of killing your just as fast as a sneeze is charging at probably 30mph. Would you fire a "warning" shot?

Say what you will, my money is on the fact you're going to try and drop her before you find out her intentions. Luckily in this video, both the men and the bear won out. I doubt either one of them was 'bluffing' per say.

All's well that ends well, but I think the bear and those men in the boat were all damned lucky.

Good find on the video BTW. I'd damn sure had to have changed my drawers after an encounter like that.

[targetshootr]

Since the gun was coming up as she began to charge, and the distance was so close, I would say he meant to miss. I would bet he knew what a loud blast will do and he knew that if he shot it, it would amount to four dead bears.

[TDC]

One of the best examples of the stress and rush related to a charging dangerous animal is the film below.

This movie involves an African lion instead of a Grizzly or Brown but I believe the message is the same.

To give some background to the film -- the professional hunters are attempting to kill a small male lion who had actually killed a man a few days earlier.

This film may give some perspective to the limited amount of time the hunters have to get their shots off and the speed of which the lion was on them. Grizzlies are actually faster than African Lions.... Notice the missed shots kicking up dust in the background.... These are seasoned professional hunters who, under the stress of the charge, missed several shots and almost died because of it.

Then consider the dense habitat most North American big bears live in, their speed, and the danger from an angry adrenaline pumped bear will be better understood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CNgwZgoKFc

TC

[Frozone]

Nope Flat missed, he fell over in a rocking boat with the shot and it was a "snap" he never aimed.

[dsmjon]

targetshooter, I'd like to think you're right. I can't tell from the video honestly. As an educated biologist, I also agree with you in that one shot would result in 4 dead bears. As an armed man in a boat, though, I'd tell you it's better 4 dead bear than 1 dead Jon. ;)

I'm just glad we live on the Right Coast, no worry of enormous crazy bear nor shakey ground upon which to live! :)

[frank505]

the latest bear incident here in Cody was done with a 41 Magnum and factory(?) ammo. having killed some bison with 45,475 and 500 L , i like em all, with maybe my 6 shot 475 getting most of the packing in the hills. not a screamer of a load, 22 grains of WC 820 and 405 Keith, CCI 350. SD of 3!! Velocity is 1175 in a 4.875", just will not stay in a bison cow, maybe a bull, dont get to shoot many of those. placement matters the most as does nerve.

[JesterGrin_1]

Bears are not stupid animals. IMEO, this video shows a mama bear showing that she is full-on ready to defend her cubs. I doubt that man was making a "warning shot", I think he plain missed. Put yourself in his shoes. You're in a rubber boat with ZERO cover and an animal more than capable of killing your just as fast as a sneeze is charging at probably 30mph. Would you fire a "warning" shot?

Say what you will, my money is on the fact you're going to try and drop her before you find out her intentions. Luckily in this video, both the men and the bear won out. I doubt either one of them was 'bluffing' per say.

All's well that ends well, but I think the bear and those men in the boat were all damned lucky.

Good find on the video BTW. I'd damn sure had to have changed my drawers after an encounter like that.

I also do not feel that in any way that was a warning shot. Things just happened very fast and they really did not have time to take careful aim. So as others have said they were very lucky the Bear did turn. If the Bear did not turn you would have had a couple of dead people in a boat or at the very least wounded very badly.

And I got to see a very interesting video once on a game channel that showed a Grizzley chased down and kill an Elk. Let me say that one more time lol. A GRIZZLEY chased down and KILLED an Elk. That was very interesting indeed. Not to mention very eye opening.




One of the best examples of the stress and rush related to a charging dangerous animal is the film below.

This movie involves an African lion instead of a Grizzly or Brown but I believe the message is the same.

To give some background to the film -- the professional hunters are attempting to kill a small male lion who had actually killed a man a few days earlier.

This film may give some perspective to the limited amount of time the hunters have to get their shots off and the speed of which the lion was on them. Grizzlies are actually faster than African Lions.... Notice the missed shots kicking up dust in the background.... These are seasoned professional hunters who, under the stress of the charge, missed several shots and almost died because of it.

Then consider the dense habitat most North American big bears live in, their speed, and the danger from an angry adrenaline pumped bear will be better understood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CNgwZgoKFc

TC

All I have to say is those so called Lion hunters made many mistakes to get them into so much trouble. They are very very lucky to be alive.

As for which size of round to take. I only feel that you should only take what you are comfortable with. I have a good amount of Trigger time with a .44 Mag so that is what I would use and practice with. It may not be the Big Boy on the block anylonger but I feel confident that I can hit with it.

[use enough gun]

Why not just get yourself a BFR in 45/70. Better bullet selection available, can be loaded to do anything a .475 or .500 can do. Dave

[bearcove]

BFR in 45-70 doesn't carry to well. My FA83 w/ 7 1/2" is too big. I'm wanting something very packable. My S&W mountain revolver gets used most. Want something with better penetration probably a 475 linebaugh. That rules out marlin 45-70s 12ga pumps BFRs SRHs, done that. They just end up leaning against a tree.

[bearcove]

I will probably convert a blackhawk to 5-shot in 475. About a 5" barrel give or take a 1/2". I shoot 45-70 so can make brass out of that. Now I need to get dies and some molds.

[Whitworth]

Why not just get yourself a BFR in 45/70. Better bullet selection available, can be loaded to do anything a .475 or .500 can do. Dave

It can't do what the .475 or .500 can do by virtue of its smaller diameter. The .475s on up are higher up on the food chain than the various .45s.

As someone else mentioned, the .45/70 BFR is a bit on the cumbersome side by virtue of its size.

[bearcove]

A BFR in 475 is an option since it is not the long cylinder. The barrel length can be fixed. 7" is too long, 5" carries good for me.

[dubber123]

A BFR in 475 is an option since it is not the long cylinder. The barrel length can be fixed. 7" is too long, 5" carries good for me.

Thats what they make hacksaws for....

[JesterGrin_1]

Thats what they make hacksaws for....

Dubber at times we worry about you lol. [smilie=s:

[dubber123]

Dubber at times we worry about you lol. [smilie=s:

A BFR is near the top of my "list" for a project. I will be sure to post pics of the hacksaw in action.... :lol:

[bearcove]

I'll second the hacksaw opinion! I even have one with a washing machine motor hooked up to it.:redneck:

[Whitworth]

You could always use a plasma cutter.......:grin:

[Frank]

A short barrel is tougher to shoot well. There is a trade-off. It's not all about carry. I love my 7.5" BFR .475 Linebaugh.

[Bullshop]

I got that Frank! On the shorter barrels I see three front sights. I have a Ruger 10" and can see the front sight quite well on that. I still flately refuse to put a scope on a hand gun though.
BIC/BS

[dubber123]

I got that Frank! On the shorter barrels I see three front sights. I have a Ruger 10" and can see the front sight quite well on that. I still flately refuse to put a scope on a hand gun though.
BIC/BS

Dan, just use the middle sight....:roll:

[wiljen]

Get the BFR in 475 and shoot 480 Rugers in it when you don't need the 475 Power. Should be great for versatility and you can buy it new for about $750 if you watch Gunbroker or auctionarms.

[Bullshop]

wiljen
Ya didnt read my post, two NIB guns in 475 available at The Bullshop at $700.00 ea.
They come in the factory soft case with factory scope base.
Take um both and I will ship them out for $1300 total.
We trade too!
BIC/BS