O.K.........got a 4227 problem.

[3006guns]

I have a 1lb. can of powder that I inherited from an old friend, now passed away. The can originally held 2fg black, but has "4227" & "czk 52" written in felt pen on the sides. The powder granules are very small cylinders, different lengths and dark shiney grey or black in appearance. It sure isn't 2fg black!

I have a fair amount of experience with IMR powders, but not with 4227 so I'm not sure what I'm looking at. On top of that, research shows that there was an H-4227 which may or may not be the same. From what I've read, either is good in the smaller rifle cases (like .30 carbine, .22 hornet) or in straight walled pistol rounds.

I'm too cheap to throw out what looks like good useable propellant. Can anyone confirm the appearance of the 4227 powders?

[10 ga]

Just like being sure of what is downrange when you break off a shot, SAFETY FIRST!! If in doubt throw it out!!! If you don't throw it out, be sure you have 911 on speed dial! 10 ga

[BerdanIII]

It could be that it's pull-down powder taken from Czech 7.62x25mm ammo intended for the CZ52 pistol. That ammo was loaded a little hotter than anybody else's 7.62x25mm. He may have matched the charge weight from a single round against loading data for the 7.65 Mauser / 7.62x25 Tokarev and decided it was approximately H / IMR4227 in burn rate. That being said, it would be bad ju-ju to use the powder without more information. I have some of that ammunition and will pull a bullet and see what I find, just for curiosity's sake. Stay tuned.

[GrizzLeeBear]

+1 to 10 ga.

IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT IT IS, IT IS FERTILIZER!

Spread it on your lawn and go buy another pound of powder!

[Rocky Raab]

It MIGHT be that the old man MEANT it's 4227 and good for the Cz round. That's plausible. Or it could mean the powder was taken from Cz rounds and is LIKE 4227. That's EQUALLY plausible.

Whatever it is, it's an unknown powder in the wrong can. It's entirely up to you how you use it or not. I might load a round or two to 44 Special load levels as IF it were 4227 and fire it in a strong 44 Mag, and see how the velocity stands up. But I'm not you, and you are strictly on your own here.

[725]

Dump it.

[autofix4u]

All of the old Czech manufacured 7.62x25 I have pulled down was loaded with a square cut flake powder. very thin flakes and like perfect squares. The newer S&B branded is loaded with an extruded powder. very small & short rods. The other countrys surplus x25 I have found flakes, balls, flat balls & extruded. hope this helps.

[swheeler]

To answer your question, IMR 4227 is an tubal powder with clearly visable perforation in the end, very small kernels of about same length as diameter. If you can see difference in length your eyes are way better than mine. I took 3 kernels and measured each with a dial caliper, .022-.025" in length and .022-.023" diameter.

[sundog]

Dump it. It's only a pound. And you really do not know what it is. If it were a couple 8-pound jugs, it would be worth finding out the burn rate.

As to functionality of 4227, it is my goto powder (along with N120) for cast in a lot of bottle neck rifle case with cast boolits. 30-06 with most any 180ish - 200ish grainer boolit and 20-21 grains of 4227 is a fine starting place.

[TexRebel]

rose beds like old powder, you have a unknown powder, which is worth more a lb of powder or your saftey, i say feed the rose bush

[canyon-ghost]

The guys are right, a pound of IMR 4227 is worth $18.15 to $22.50, so just throw the 20 bucks away and get new. The new is positively what it is supposed to be.

[RayinNH]

I saw pictures of 4227 in two books. The "Lyman Reloading Handbook #40, and "The Gun Digest" 5th Ed. 1951. Scot Wheelers description was right on the money though according to the pictures in the two books...Ray

[WILCO]

Just dump it. As stated earlier, it's less than $25.00 a pound........

[BerdanIII]

I pulled the bullet on a Czech 7.62x25mm round, headstamp "bxn 53", and it contained 10.5 grs of a grey, cut-flake powder. This is roughly AA9 in burn rate according to Accurate Arms data. The 4227's are about a half-step slower than that. Given the lack of any reliable information, got any fire ant mounds that need burning?

[Bulletlube]

I would also dump it. That said when I called Hodgdon about H4227 data they said to just use IMR4227 data.

[madsenshooter]

I would assume, perhaps wrongly, that my old friend wasn't an idiot, and start low with data. To my knowledge, which is limited, there aren't a whole lot of extruded powders faster than 4227. I'd start low in some straight walled case with a light bullet and compare it to data. If the roses need something, let them have urea!

[StarMetal]

Send it to me, I'll properly dispose of it.

Joe

[MtGun44]

I'd load it very carefully, like start with HALF of the starting load for .44 SPL and shoot
it in a Ruger .44 mag or equivalent extreme safety margin.

In my experience, any powder that is working anywhere near normal pressures will
develop a very linear relationship between grains of powder and velocity. Start ultra
low, verify that it is not producing high pressures and then try a starting load for
4227 and chrono it. See if it is close to the book value. If so, try a medium load from
the book and chrono it. Plot these two and you now have a really good shot at seeing
if the plotted line matches or comes close to the 4227 data. Even if it is fairly different,
you should be able to use the plot and the velocity info to develop a safe enough load
to consume a pound.

It's not rocket science but it does take an abundance of caution.

Be careful.

Bill

Bill

[waco]

toss it

[WILCO]

It's not rocket science but it does take an abundance of caution.

Takes two seconds to dump it and safely move on.......:killingpc

[Junior1942]

My last trip to the ER cost about $1,200. A lb of H4227 costs about $20.

[Patrick L]

Dump it, repeat dump it, and spend the $25 it represents on a nice steak and sit there and ponder not only how good it tastes, but how good it looks and smells and appreciate the presence of your eyesight, nose, taste buds, etc.

[StarMetal]

My last trip to the ER cost about $1,200. A lb of H4227 costs about $20.


.......but your ER trip wasn't because of supposedly unknown 4227 or any powder...I'll bet?:kidding::kidding:

Joe
P.S. If I lived close to the poster I'd buy it from him and guarantee y'all wouldn't be hearing any ER stories from me. Mt44 and I are in agreement on this one.

[Ricochet]

Yes, there are ways to establish a safe charge with "unknown" powders, and quite a few folks on this board have done so. Everyone who's used surplus powders has done it to an extent.

[USSR]

...there aren't a whole lot of extruded powders faster than 4227. I'd start low in some straight walled case with a light bullet and compare it to data.

+1. Don't know of any extruded powder faster than 4227, so worse case scenario, you have a slower burning powder, and that won't get you in trouble.

Don

[MtGun44]

I'm with Ricochet. Like I said, it isn't rocket science. With caution you can be very
safe with an unknown powder.

If you decide to dump it, I'll give you shipping for it.

Bill

[StanDahl]

Isn't loading up a case with half of the starting load risking a S.E.E.?
If that powder isn't actually fast-burning 4227, but a slow powder, a very low charge could cause that.

I can't find it here, but I have in my collection a post from this site begun 12-10-2005 called "S.E.S. Educate me Please" about that with some disturbing first hand information about the secondary explosion effect.

[Lloyd Smale]

what would you rather toss a 15 dollar jug of powder or a 500 dollar gun