African Elephants with a .22LR

[Jim]

I was reading a book by Peter Hathaway Capstick the other night and he mentioned an event where a fellow PH told him of accidentally killing an elephant with a .22LR. The friend took Pete out into the bush and proved it by doing it again. With a broadside shot, the shooter waited 'till the elephant stepped forward and then shot into the chest immediately behind the front leg. The skin is thin and soft at this point and the bullet pierced the heart and the elephant collapsed within a minute.
Placement and penetration.

[Rocky Raab]

Back in the 20s or 30s, the largest circus elephant in history went amok. It was put down with one shot of a 22 Short! Don't ask me how. But that event does not make the .22 Short an elephant gun!

The .22 has possibly killed every animal on this planet at some time or other - and gotten uncounted people stomped, gored or eaten as well. Then too, it is hardly rare to find a .22 slug in the meat of a deer that was more or less healthy until killed by a more substantial gun.

[leftiye]

I was gonna say "yeah right!" BTW, Capstick is big time cool! Love his books.

[MtGun44]

I enjoyed Capsticks books. However, I have since heard that they are other
people's adventures, sometimes heavily embelished, rather than first hand
truths. So, until I have some definitive info on these stories, I treat them as
fiction rather than fact.

Regardless, they are well written and enjoyable to read. They started me
thinking about hunting in Africa, although I always thought it would be far
beyond my financial ability. I was surprised to find out that an ordinary
person could afford to hunt in Africa. So - Capstick gets credit for helping
me towards one of my biggest hunting adventures, truth or fiction.

As to the elephant -- sounds pretty iffy and I would imagine that it would
require at least 18" of flesh penetration. Anyone know how deep the solid
pt .22 LR penetrates in gelatin?

Bill

[Russ in WY]

Seems that I read the elephant kill story myself way back when. Won't swear to any of it but ,did read that once. My 2¢ Russ.

[softpoint]

Raised on a farm here in Texas, the .22 was used for everything. Sick cattle , or even mean Brahma bulls were dispatched with one shot to the brain. Hogs were dropped in the hog pen the same way, with whatever .22 round happened to be handy at the moment, sometimes it was shorts. Occasionaly a short would fail to penetrate to the brain if the angle it hit was too acute. I never recall a LR failing to kill. Deer were killed with .22's with a shot either between the eyes, or in or right behind the ear.
Reading the writings of others, the grizzly bear was brought to near extinction in the US by the .30/30 Winchester. I have no doubt that a griz could be killed by a .22 to brain. However, a miss or a bad angle could bring on adverse consequences. (bear open a can of you-know-what)
I can't comment on how much penetration, or where an elephant would have to be shot with a .22 to kill it. They've been killed with bows and arrows, though.
go here:

http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/Articles/The_Lady_Bowhunts_For_Elephant_-_Pt_8_printer.shtml

[Rocky Raab]

Just to satisfy myself, I did a half-hour search. I can't find any DOCUMENTED incident where an elephant was killed with any rimfire. There are a gazillion references to threads like this one, the Capstick story and other "I heard that..." tales, but nothing DOCUMENTED.

In particular, I checked the story of Jumbo the circus elephant. That elephant died when crushed by a locomotive. Being that is is very hard to confuse a locomotive with a .22 Short even by the most gun-illiterate scribe, I have to call that myth busted.

It's probably an urban myth.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I remember a story that took place back in the early `50`s. Two boys were argueing about a .22 short would kill an elephant. They smuggled a .22 pistol of their fathers into a traveling circus that was in town. As the jumbo`s were parading around center ring the shot was done from front row bleacher seats at the nearest jumbo and behind the shoulder. Next day jumbo was dead from internal hemorraging by the little .22 short.Robert

[thenaaks]

here are a couple pages with some interesting 22lr penetration info:

http://www.goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/22lr/gel22lr.htm

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=782785&page=1

the latter talks about shooting a (butterball) turkey from 250 yards...i would have never thought about shooting a 22lr that far away!

[runfiverun]

once a month we have 22lr silhouette matches here the rams are at 200 meters.
and open sights are used.
the silhouettes are scaled down to 1/8th size.
i suk but it's fun...

[DLCTEX]

I had the sad occasion to help put down about 70 or more cattle that had been badly burned in a fire at an auction sale in La. in 1978. A friend and I used 22 LR and first tried brain shots from the front, but quickly found that a shot behind the ear, angling to the front was 100% sure to drop the animal in its tracks. A frontal shot centered and 2 inches above the eyeline worked, but if the chin was lifted any the bullet would ride up the skull and not penetrate the skull. Total loss was about 200 head. The cattle were turned out, but stampeded and ran back into the fire.

[troy_mclure]

i have eaten elk that was killed by a .22lr, and a hunting guide in canada told us about a moose that tried to climb into his boat that he killed with a .22 pistol.

[softpoint]

On a large animal a shot directly into the eye towards the center of the brain(from the side, usually) will also kill.

[splattersmith]

I was told by a guy that he got a chipmunk with a tactical hydrogen bomb. Little left to clean, he said.

[troy_mclure]

been there done that! cooked to perfection!

[watkibe]

There is such a big difference between what is possible and what is a good idea.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I have never been disappointed with the performance of a 22lr. It is amazing what a 22 can do when it has to, but a chest shot on elephants, I find that a little hard to believe.

Of course 50 or 60 years ago (before evolution kicked in) a 22lr might have been plenty for an elephant. However nowadays you need at least a 300 Win Mag to "humanely" kill the highly evolved squirrels, and I am not sure if there is a big enough gun to take out a modern day elephant.:):):)

[carpetman]

Yeah I kill elephants that get into my yard all time and I never used anything bigger than a .22. They are pretty good eating and will feed a lot of people. A 4000 pound elephant will make enough stew to feed about 2500 people. If you are having a bigger tailgate party than that you can supplement it some rabbit if you are very careful. You have to sneak it in. Most people get upset if they find a hare in their stew.

[windrider919]

I actually have two stories for here.

I don't condone this and never participated but:
My East Texas uncles (all 3 dead now) used to hunt year round on their own property. Usually after dark with a spotlight. They both used 22LR and killed several dear each year for over 40 years. One shot = one deer and usually at 50 to 75 yards. I can say that I ate a lot of venison growing up.

And when I was a kid in Cub Scouts on a camping trip in Louisiana a black bear tried to break into the station wagon where the food was one night. The scout masters wife was sleeping in the car and when it broke the window and stuck its head inside she shot it with an old H&R 6" barreled 9 shot 22LR revolver. She was one cool lady and shot once straight into the mouth, right into the spine. It died instantly, head and front legs still inside the car. It was all over before we boys could even get out of our tents. No cell phones those days and the adults just butchered out the bear. We cooked some and I remember it was the greasiest meat I ever ate. One of the dads went into the closest town and got the parish sheriff and ice and later they they took it home. She insisted the hide was hers and had it tanned.

[dale2242]

I remember my father killing an adult black bear with one shot to the side of the head with a 22 rf pistol. I was bothered by the idea, I still am, of shooting anything other than small game with a 22 rf. We have all heard the stories of what was killed with them. In my opinion, shooting large animals with a 22rf is just inhumane and unsportsmanlike. Use the proper gun for the job at hand.....dale

[parson48]

The elephants have obviously heard that I am the owner of at least one .22, therefore they stay away from my property here in Indianapolis!
parson48

[fatnhappy]

the .22 is a stone cold killer. I can't imagine not having one around the house, or teaching my son to shoot without one.
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[FN in MT]

I believe I read it in one of the J A Hunter books or possibly one of Robert Ruarks....but I did read the story of a mature African elephant , in the WILD, killed by a .22 rifle.

One of the ways elephants cool themselves is by flapping their large ears. On the backside of their ears they have many, many blood vessels which are fairly close to the skin. This array of small vessels is fed by a single large artery close to the base of the ear.

In the account I read the shooter stalked close to a elephant in a herd and waited for the perfect shot and stuck a .22 into that artery. The noise of the herd feeding masked the report of his rifle and he sneaked away unnoticed.

The high blood pressure at the point of the wound kept the blood flowing and EVENTUALLY the elephant fell over and died. And if I recall it correctly it was quite some time. Certainly painless ......but far from humane.

FN in MT

[snowtigger]

I can tell this story because the principal is deceased.
Karl, the principle in this story , was collecting Christmas trees with some friends when they spotted a moose in a field. They decided to spook the moose out of the field and kill (poach) it. Karl had the only gun, a 22 rimfire.
He decided the best shot would be through the heart. As the moose went over the berm at the edge of the field, he fired one shot. He immediately saw what he thought was his moose running to the left, and fired again. The moose dropped right away.
As he approached the moose, he looked off to his right and observed the first moose, dead just beyond the berm.
Two moose with two shots from a 22!
I don't condone poaching, but he was unemployed at the time and he was feeding his family.
I have been hunting moose for almost 50 years and I still do not think I could reliably hit one in the heart, much less two moose.

[The Double D]

I got a god laugh reading this thread. I was doing some research the other day on the .577 2 3/4 BPE. I picked up my copy of John Taylors African Rifles & Cartridges. Taylor was writing about the deployment of the .577 and .600 to hunt elephants. Tayler said these two cartridges when shot into the head of an elephant will stun the elephant for a period of time and give you chance to get close enough to place a killing shot.

[StarMetal]

I got a god laugh reading this thread. I was doing some research the other day on the .577 2 3/4 BPE. I picked up my copy of John Taylors African Rifles & Cartridges. Taylor was writing about the deployment of the .577 and .600 to hunt elephants. Tayler said these two cartridges when shot into the head of an elephant will stun the elephant for a period of time and give you chance to get close enough to place a killing shot.

You could look at it as what's easier to push into a substance, an ice pick or a round nosed 1/2 steel rod?

Joe

[Jim]

I have always believed in using the right tool for the job, but I just thought it would be fun to post this. Y'all have a good weekend, fellas.

[Echo]

The elephants have obviously heard that I am the owner of at least one .22, therefore they stay away from my property here in Indianapolis!
parson48

Are you SURE? Elephants have been known to hide in orange trees by painting their toenails orange. What? You've never seen one? They hide pretty good, don't they!

:bigsmyl2:

[windrider919]

Oh yah, I heard about that.

That is why they have flat feet, from jumping out of trees.

[parson48]

Not any orange trees here in Indy. They'd have to use red toe nail polish and head for the apple trees.

Guess I'd better keep the ol' 22 nearby just in case!
parson48

[Jim]

Elephants have red eyes. That's their natural camouflage for hiding in cherry trees.

[Rocky Raab]

I regret that I have actually killed an elephant or two. Deeply regret it.

The NVA used elephant and water buffalo as pack animals on the Ho Chi Minh Trail. When we discovered one, we'd make a low pass. If the animal spooked at our engine noise, it was probably wild and we left it alone. But if it seemed used to engine noise, we assumed it was a pack animal and would hit it with a flechette rocket. Flechettes are supersonic little finned nails, and they penetrate like nobody's business. But such needle holes make for a lingering and agonizing death for a large animal.

I didn't mind the water buffalo so much, but my heart broke to kill elephants that way.

BTW, the elephants there were pink. Honest. They dusted themselves in that red soil, and were no-foolin' pink.

[TDC]

What dale2242 and watkibe said....

[nicholst55]

I got a god laugh reading this thread. I was doing some research the other day on the .577 2 3/4 BPE. I picked up my copy of John Taylors African Rifles & Cartridges. Taylor was writing about the deployment of the .577 and .600 to hunt elephants. Tayler said these two cartridges when shot into the head of an elephant will stun the elephant for a period of time and give you chance to get close enough to place a killing shot.

One current method of culling elephants is to 'center-punch' them through the forehead with an armor-piercing 7.62 NATO round. This usually kills them outright, but not always. It has become common practice to give them an 'insurance shot' with a 9mm pistol in the ear canal. I'm told that always works.

The insurance shot was decided upon after a supposedly 'dead' elephant revived as it was being winched onto a truck for transport to a local village for butchering. I understand that the elephant became quite disturbed by the entire process. 8-)

[Rat-Man]

I understand that the elephant became quite disturbed by the entire process. 8-)

I suspect he did! That right there was funny, I don't care who you are.:bigsmyl2:

[fatnhappy]

You could look at it as what's easier to push into a substance, an ice pick or a round nosed 1/2 steel rod?

Joe

which one is being propelled by hurricane force winds?

[ka0tqv]

I've read Capsticks book at least once and he's good at it. Peter was a success on Wall Street, decided to start up his own Safari Outfit, operating out of New York City. He had a lot of well heeled friends, and made a success out of it. His best stories are about other people. Naming one (Wally Johnson the Last Ivory Hunter). Books written about his own safaris, I look at with a jaundiced eye. He almost always had a professional photographer with him, who was always able to take good photos of the slain animal, but unable to come up with a filmed record of the event. Not being there myself, this is only conjecture. With a picture standing over a slain lion, months later when writing about it, you can conjure up all kinds of scenarios. But more power to him, he made money on Wall Street, safaris and finally his books. That's a lot more than I ever did.
************************************************** ***********************8
Did you hear about the cow that got killed by a weasel.? No, not possible, Tell me about it.
The cow was standing on the railroad tracks and didn't hear the weasel.

[Dave Bulla]

I've read Captstick's story about th elephant kill too. I think it was in the book "Death in the Silent Places" which was totally about the past great African hunters and not about Captsitck's own hunts though he did mention his own experiences as reference. As I recall, whoever it was who did it, did it alone the first time as a sort of experiment, got away with it and made the mistake of mentioning it to his peers who immediately called him out as a liar so he went back out with one of them and did it again. I don't know if I believe all of Captsticks stories (sure do enjoy them though...) but I know he did make it a point to talk about how unlikely this was and that supposedly, in both cases, the hunter had the ability (or luck) to place his bullet between the ribs tight in the armpit as the leg was forward. I think he mentioned how much penetration was needed to get to the heart from this angle but it wasn't as much as you would think. Less than a foot if I recall correctly. Without hitting bone, that would be possible but I certainly wouldn't want to try it.

If you consider the medical aspect of heart damage causing death, I believe that a bullet finding it's way even an inch into an elephants heart would likely cause death by symptoms the same as a heart attack where blood flow is interrupted to an area of the heart and it doesn't pump properly.

In reality, who the heck knows?

[markinalpine]

"I once shot an elephant in my pajamas, how he got in my pajamas I'll never know."
Groucho Marx

I can't believe nobody posted Groucho's quote yet!
Mark :bigsmyl2:

[waksupi]

"I once shot an elephant in my pajamas, how he got in my pajamas I'll never know."
Groucho Marx

I can't believe nobody posted Groucho's quote yet!
Mark :bigsmyl2:

He shot it in Alabama. Every one knows the Tuscaloosa in Alabama.

[azrednek]

i have eaten elk that was killed by a .22lr, and a hunting guide in canada told us about a moose that tried to climb into his boat that he killed with a .22 pistol.

My former in-laws grew up in an area where Elk were a nuisance. Migrating Elk would get into cattle and horse feeders, trample hogs and chickens. Horny Elk would attempt to mount and often injure cattle and horses. The Elk they couldn't chase off were often dispatched with a head shot with a 22.

My former in-laws refused to eat Elk meat as adults. When they were growing up a dispatched Elk was immediately butchered and the meat divided up with neighboring farms and ranches. When they were young Elk meat was abundant and it was the only meat they ate until all the Elk headed north. My X's uncle claimed he used to look forward to a breakfast of eggs and oatmeal. Occasionally there would even be some sugar available for their oatmeal and it was the only meal the kids really looked forward to. Lunch and dinner was Elk meat and beans often for several consecutive weeks before they got any beef, pork or chicken.

[deerslayer]

I personaly seen a friend of mine shoot a 2000 pound bull right in the but. The next day he almost went to jail over it as the bull was stone cold dead. The P.O.ed farmer had an autopsy done and the bullet had went clean through the animal and took out a lung on the way through. So if you need a cow dead tomorow shoot it in the but hole with a .22 and try it for yourself.

[Newtire]

I personally shot out all the elephants around here with my Double-Nine.

Sorry, just an excuse to show off my Double -Nine I finally got the time and parts to put back together.

[DLCTEX]

I had a double nine like that many years ago. Wish I still had it. I shopped the online auctions a few years ago to buy one but was unwilling to pay what they were bringing. It was a very accurate pistol.

[Newtire]

I had a double nine like that many years ago. Wish I still had it. I shopped the online auctions a few years ago to buy one but was unwilling to pay what they were bringing. It was a very accurate pistol.

Hi Tex,

I see these things on Gunbroker for $200 or a little more. This one cost me $40 plus $60 in parts to fix.

A bit on the cheap side as far as the build of it and a real bear to put back together. I finally found the right sequence of installing things and after about three tries, got it to slide together and put in the frame-to-grip-frame pin and then the hammer screw.

The rough part was getting the hand to slide in and the bolt to come up thru the main frame at the same time. Luckily, I found my third hand somehow and it slid together.

I learned alot and had fun though!

[azrednek]

I'm like Newtire, don't know what to say but I always enjoy showing off my Double Nine. When I bought it back in the 70's I was a crack-shot with it. Now days the revolver shoots much better than my aging eyes allow.

My Double Nine with the mag cylinder harvested a Javalina back in the 80's. Not by me but my neighbor's son. My neighbor missed the porker with his 357 and his 14 year old son carrying my Double Nine nailed it.

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[MtGun44]

Boy this is an old thread!

I have been told that Capstick was actually a bartender and the whole "stockbroker turned white
hunter" deal was phony.

I don't know what is true, but his stories are well written and enjoyable. As to truth or
fiction, I am leaning towards fiction.

Killing an elephant with a .22LR??? May be possible, I sure would not
want to try it.

Bill

[RemSoles]

When my uncle was a kid he was out hunting with the 22, he saw a black bear so he got close and shot it in the head, it fell down, he went up to it, kicked it and it never moved so he turned and went to get the tractor to carry it home. When he got back the bear was gone! Must have only stuned it.

I have used the 22 on cows before but I went to a larger rifle for better reliability. There are reasons that powerhouse rifles like the 30-30 were invented!:mrgreen:

[Retro]

http://www.retro.co.za/gundex/articles/Kill%20an%20Elephant%20with%20a%2022.html

[KCSO]

Uh I watched the video of Howard Hill killing one with a bow and I KNOW a 22 will out penetrate a bow so... If the bullet gets to the heart the critter will die EVENTUALLY. I sure wouldn't want to hang around in the near vicinity waiting for it though!

[Larry Gibson]

Uh I watched the video of Howard Hill killing one with a bow and I KNOW a 22 will out penetrate a bow so... If the bullet gets to the heart the critter will die EVENTUALLY. I sure wouldn't want to hang around in the near vicinity waiting for it though!

Capstick is a wonderful story teller and I do love to read him over and over. I was somewhat disappointed that Capstick did not tell us what rifle he was carrying in case something went wrong with the .22LR shot. I suspect it was his ever present M70 .375 H&H but don't know, perhaps something of more "persuasion";-).

Larry Gibson

[waksupi]

Uh I watched the video of Howard Hill killing one with a bow and I KNOW a 22 will out penetrate a bow so... If the bullet gets to the heart the critter will die EVENTUALLY. I sure wouldn't want to hang around in the near vicinity waiting for it though!

I don't recall the details on Hill's arrow and broadhead, but I think the projectile weight was over 1500 grains, and his bow was around 130#.
I have seen demonstrations of .30-06, and arrows being shot into sandbags. The arrow penetrated further.

[Dave Bulla]

Uh I watched the video of Howard Hill killing one with a bow and I KNOW a 22 will out penetrate a bow so...

I'm a big fan of both 22's and longbows. I do nearly all of my hunting with a longbow and wood arrows and I'm sorry to say what you "know" is wrong. I can say without a doubt that any moderate hunting weight bow will out penetrate a 22 bullet in just about any medium you choose. Bow's don't penetrate by force or kill by shock like a bullet, they slice cleanly and kill by hemorrhage. Besides, a typical wood arrow weighs between 450 and 650 grains so think about the momentum an arrow has.

The demonstrations that waksupi mentions were popular back in the 60's and 70's. A bucket, box or bag full of sand would be set up and the crowd would be asked which weapon would penetrate farther, the rifle or the bow. Most said the rifle. The 30.06 would make a big bang, throw sand in the air and stop inside the bucket where the shooter could reach in and pull it out to show the crowd. He'd then step back and shoot an arrow and it would penetrate clear through and arrow would be sticking out both sides of the bucket.

But I'm getting way off topic..... so sorry about that.

[KCSO]

Well I saw a 22 penetrate the back seat of a car a small elephant??? of over 300 pounds in the front seat ans lodge in the glove box so I KNOW a 22 will penetrate.

As to arrow vrs 30-06 it's kind of a trick as the arrow doesn't expand and the 30-06 soft point in sand will flatten out to about quarter size and stop in about a foot. I never tried a 22 vrs and arrow but I will have to now just to find out. As to the arrow sticking out of the bucket well the POINT went farther than the 30-06 bullet but like I said it's a trick as a FMJ 30-06 will shoot clear through a 10" cottenwood tree and no arrow will do that. I wasn't denigrating the arrow just making the point that if the bullet has the penetration it will kill.

OH and by the way can I get someone to shoot a Howard Hill bow? I can't pull 90 pounds anymore!

[waksupi]

OH and by the way can I get someone to shoot a Howard Hill bow? I can't pull 90 pounds anymore!

I couldn't anymore, but used to pull #139 with a compound. Not one of the new ones with high let off. I used it for physical therapy of a shoulder injury after a horse accident. Started at the lowest setting, kept turning it up, had the wheels changed a couple times for more poundage. After they weighed it at the league and I found out what I was shooting, my score went to hell.

[KCSO]

22 vrs arrow penetration....

First of I wasn't trying to start a peeing contest just commenting on how long it would take for the elephant to die, now to the tests.

#1 45 pound long bow vers 22 bullet 40 grain rn lead

2" cottenwood plank arrow stopped dead bullet went right through

4" cotten batting archery target bullet stoppe in 3" arrow stopped 3 1/2"

Foam archery target rated for 70 pound bow, arrow stopped bullet zipped right through

Water shooting down into 5 gallon bucket bullet stopped dented bucket bottom arrow went through bottom of bucket.

All in all it proved nothing, depending on what you are shooting into either one could or could not penetrate better in a given circumstance. As to actual animal tissue I was unfortunate enough to have to investigate a animal serial killer a few years ago and got to delve into 17 animals killed with a 22 and 5 killed with an arrow. Only one arrow went in and out and 7 of the 22 bullets did on chest shots, what's that prove not much. BUT all the arrow killed cows dropped inside 100 yards of the fence line and some of the 22 shot cows didn't die for days.

Since I see very few folks shooting their 22's into foam archery targets in their back yard and I see a whole lot of folks shooting arrows into the same in some circumstances a 22 WILL out penetrate an arrow.

Oh and just for the curious a 45# long bow will put a broadhead through a kevlar vest that will stop a 44 magnum. I have the vest.

[Arisaka99]

Well IMO, if it drops the animal in its tracks and it doesnt suffer, then its perfectly humane, but any other shots are just careless. But if it was me, I'd use a .22 hornet or .22WMR

[preparehandbook]

I'm surprised nobody's brought up the aquila sss, It is my regular everything load when backpacking, I use a 317 as it's only 9ish oz and since I ultralight pack, every gram counts. I have no worries at all that any 2 or 4 legged west coast critter could be handled with the 8 available shots and a bit of luck.

Since I am not hunting when I hike, any shot would be a defensive one, if I'm hunting I'd choose something a heck of a lot bigger.

I've seen a SSS go straight through a good sized domestic sow, in one side and out the other with a straight on rib hit on the far side. (moron was trying to hit it in the head)

BTW, I keep elephants away by doing 2 nude laps around the property every morning, it also keeps the neighbors away.

[NSP64]

BTW, I keep elephants away by doing 2 nude laps around the property every morning, it also keeps the neighbors away.

:drinks:

[HangFireW8]

I recall reading a Jack O'Connor article, where he disdainfully dismissed a new writer that was a mere travel agent and no White Hunter. He didn't name names, but there was no doubt where Jack came down on the Capstick issue.

[Multigunner]

I can add two methods used by Africans to kill Elephants.

The Pygmy hunters would find a trail through a wooded area that they knew Elephant used, they dug a hole in the middle of the trail, the hunter would lay in the hole which he or a companion would cover carefully.
When the Elephant strolled down the trail the hunter would strike upwards with a slim spear head to pierce the heart then try to get out from under before it fell or could grab him with its trunk.

Another method involved running at an Elephant as it passed the hunters place of concealment, and slashing a hind leg with a hatchet.
A deep hatchet wound would imobilise or at least slow down the Elephant and it would bleed out fairly quickly.

As for Black Bear their brain is not situated in the same orientation in the skull as other bears. The Black Bear Brain sits much lower and farther forwards in the skull, due to its specialized sense of smell. The olfactory nerves run straight to the brain from its large nasal passages.
The best way to hit a Black bear in the brain is to fire into its open mouth or through the nose. Bullets can sometimes bounce off its fore head, and from the side its jaw attachment points are pretty thick and can deflect a bullet.
Not sure if a shot through the ear would actually reach the brain, or just waste energy in bone.

PS
The Grizzly Bear Old Moses was found to have three healed over bullets in his brain. They were .38-55 bullets fired straight into his maw by one of his victims. They had found the shattered rifle and skull of that victim decades earlier. Old Moses had caught the man, who was a professional hunter, in his bed roll and the hunter got off three shots from his lever action before the Bear came down on him like the wath of God.
Old Moses had more than one hundred healed bullet wounds including musket balls.

[Clark]

Dan McCarthy shooting elephants (http://www.accuratereloading.com/dmhunt05.html)

That 500 N.E. rifle cost Dan $30k.

I hunt deer in the USA with a $500 rifle, because I am a cheapskate.

[snowwolfe]

Dan McCarthy shooting elephants (http://www.accuratereloading.com/dmhunt05.html)

That 500 N.E. rifle cost Dan $30k.

I hunt deer in the USA with a $500 rifle, because I am a cheapskate.

Totally false information. Article stated rifle used was a Searcy Field Grade 500 NE. In the last 3 years or so the price of the Searcy Field Grade has ranged from $9,000 to the current price of $10,500.

[HarryT]

Walter Bell killed 1011 elephants with a 7X57 (.275 Rigby) rifle firing 173 grain military cartridges. The locals in Africa use .303 to kill elephants. Great White Hunters from America and Europe use $10,000 forty plus caliber rifles to do the job.

[9.3X62AL]

Hey, Clark--good to see ya again. I don't know how much double-rifles cost, but DO KNOW I can't afford one. That's enough for me.

Ahem......22 LR has its place, certainly. One little experiment I wanted to try with 22 LR before the Great Ammo & Component Shortage of 2008-10 took hold was a comparison of CCI Mini-Mags vs. the CCI SGM (Small Game Bullet) to see if bullet shape could improve terminal performance on little critters. Maybe now that the supply chain is filling back up I can start that music without further delay. Jackrabbits have been pretty thick locally, and they get obnoxious when not fired upon regularly. They are known to form gang memberships--observers have noted "jump-in" ceremonies occurring with increasing frequency.

[bkbville]

Sounds like one for "Mythbusters", but I could see the Peta folks out for that....

[Shooter6br]

Ever shoot a woodchuck with a 22 LR? Tough critter. i can only imagine onre the size of an elephant LOL

[snowwolfe]

Walter Bell killed 1011 elephants with a 7X57 (.275 Rigby) rifle firing 173 grain military cartridges. The locals in Africa use .303 to kill elephants. Great White Hunters from America and Europe use $10,000 forty plus caliber rifles to do the job.

Large calibers are used now because most, if not all countries in Africa require .375 or larger calibers for elephant. Laws apply to residents and great white hunters equally.

If you can afford the price of the hunt, last thing you would be concerned with is the price of the rifle. But it would be pretty easy to find a .458 Win Mag or .375 H&H for about $1,000.

[HangFireW8]

Walter Bell killed 1011 elephants with a 7X57 (.275 Rigby) rifle firing 173 grain military cartridges. The locals in Africa use .303 to kill elephants. Great White Hunters from America and Europe use $10,000 forty plus caliber rifles to do the job.

Yes, that is right. Meat hunters stalk and shoot from cover, and then track.

Trophy hunters try to provoke a charge, and only take head shots at less than 100, usually much, much less, as it is part of the sporting code.

So, each is using equipment appropriate for their role.

Many, however, rent a $1,000 bolt action .458 Winchester Magnum in country.

-HF

[Clark]

Hey, Clark--good to see ya again. I don't know how much double-rifles cost, but DO KNOW I can't afford one. That's enough for me.



As snowwolfe is pointing out, I don't know ANYTHING about double rifles, I do get regular email from Dan McCarthy and HangfireW8, who are knowledgeable about lots of gun stuff.

The biggest thing I have killed with a 22LR is rock chucks. They don't make it back to the hole with Quickshock type 3 way splitting bullets.

I do know about being a cheapskate. I just killed 3 deer over a period of 2 weeks. That hunt cost me less than $1k. I slept in my vehicle and complained about bugs where Lewis and Clark camped and complained about bugs.

I have never ever heard a cost figure yet, on pulling the trigger on an elephant, that would temp me.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I keep my 22 for culling viscous rabid bull rabbits and such.

[DrNick]

i have eaten elk that was killed by a .22lr, and a hunting guide in canada told us about a moose that tried to climb into his boat that he killed with a .22 pistol.

Huh...pistols have been rigidly controlled in Canada since the 1930's. It's HARD to get a permit to carry one, even in the wilderness. I know of a few guides that do and their choice is not a .22 for sure :)

Having said that, it sure would be nice to be able to carry a .22 pistol when I'm out hunting deer...I have to make do with a .22 air pistol to put grouse in the pot :(

[DrNick]

Uh I watched the video of Howard Hill killing one with a bow and I KNOW a 22 will out penetrate a bow so... If the bullet gets to the heart the critter will die EVENTUALLY. I sure wouldn't want to hang around in the near vicinity waiting for it though!

Actually a bow has incredible penetration power. A 600 + grain arrow combined with hardened cutting points. Most .30-06 rounds won't penetrate a 5 gallon bucket full of sand (I guess that's why the army is so fond of sandbags...) but an arrow WILL penetrate it...it'll go right through it.

[wmitty]

Penetration of the .22 LR has proved to be entirely adequate on the armored north Texas armadillo; which leads me to assume it would be just the thing for shooting thru the skull of an elephant or the horn boss of a Cape buffalo. Totally useless on the dreaded wild hogs around here, though.

[x101airborne]

Penetration of the .22 LR has proved to be entirely adequate on the armored north Texas armadillo; which leads me to assume it would be just the thing for shooting thru the skull of an elephant or the horn boss of a Cape buffalo. Totally useless on the dreaded wild hogs around here, though.

many armor-dillos have taken the fall to my 22 lr. But hogs get it too. I once was squirrell hunting in march and found a group of 150 - 200 pounders walking in a single line toward me around 15 feet apart. I shot the first behind the eye and it simply went down. The second saw her and laid down next to her. I shot the third and it went down. The second got up, and i put it down. The rest ran. Rifle: Browning Buckmark Carbine. Ammo: Remington golden bullet hp. Distance: 10 yards.

[Molly]

I have no idea where or when I read it, but I HAVE read that the biggest grizzly bear ever taken in a western state (don't recall which one) was shot by a squaw running a trap line. IIRC, she found the bear with ONE TOE caught in one of her traps. She walked up to it and shot it in the eye with a black powder .22 short. The bear fell over dead as a doornail, so she rolled it onto a travois or sled (don't recall details) and took it into town, where it created quite a stir.

You tell me: Author's embellishment, primitive urban legend, or fact?

[Arisaka99]

Sounds plausible. :coffee:

[camerl2009]

I have no idea where or when I read it, but I HAVE read that the biggest grizzly bear ever taken in a western state (don't recall which one) was shot by a squaw running a trap line. IIRC, she found the bear with ONE TOE caught in one of her traps. She walked up to it and shot it in the eye with a black powder .22 short. The bear fell over dead as a doornail, so she rolled it onto a travois or sled (don't recall details) and took it into town, where it created quite a stir.

You tell me: Author's embellishment, primitive urban legend, or fact?

them natives can do crazy things some times

[bowhunter]

:cbpour:i don't know about elephants but here in the part of s.c. where i live it has always been wide open as far as caliber of gun to use to deer hunt with. back in the 50s 60s my father only had a 22 a rem. 550-1 auto. a friend of his had a win. model 62 pump, that is all they used to hunt all critters with, my dad would only use lr solids. him and his friend when they could not get a head or neck shot on deer they would shoot the deer behind the shoulder. i have skined deer shot with those solids they will break ribs on entrance and the boolits will flaten out on the skin on the other side of the deer. when the lungs are collapsed a deer will not go much over 50 yards. these men killed hundreds of deer with these 22s i know the number of deer sounds made up but it is the truth, you have to remember we have the longest deer season in the world here in my county (colleton) it runs from aug.15-jan1 on private land and now our buck limit is 4 per day. back then it was unlimited. then in the 60s-80s he used a 22 hornet, trust me they will kill deer dead. the boolits will go in one side and out the other, a deer hit with one will not live over 50 yds. a lot of times instant kills are the norm. i know our deer are a little small compared to northern deer, but they will get 200+ pounds. the average is around 125 lbs. shot placement is still best no matter what gun is used.

[camerl2009]

:cbpour:i don't know about elephants but here in the part of s.c. where i live it has always been wide open as far as caliber of gun to use to deer hunt with. back in the 50s 60s my father only had a 22 a rem. 550-1 auto. a friend of his had a win. model 62 pump, that is all they used to hunt all critters with, my dad would only use lr solids. him and his friend when they could not get a head or neck shot on deer they would shoot the deer behind the shoulder. i have skined deer shot with those solids they will break ribs on entrance and the boolits will flaten out on the skin on the other side of the deer. when the lungs are collapsed a deer will not go much over 50 yards. these men killed hundreds of deer with these 22s i know the number of deer sounds made up but it is the truth, you have to remember we have the longest deer season in the world here in my county (colleton) it runs from aug.15-jan1 on private land and now our buck limit is 4 per day. back then it was unlimited. then in the 60s-80s he used a 22 hornet, trust me they will kill deer dead. the boolits will go in one side and out the other, a deer hit with one will not live over 50 yds. a lot of times instant kills are the norm. i know our deer are a little small compared to northern deer, but they will get 200+ pounds. the average is around 125 lbs. shot placement is still best no matter what gun is used.


i got my first deer with a .22 hornet with some soft point ammo
i droped it in one shot right where he stood
here in ontario the deer are much bigger(body wise) then down there but
and as long as the gun your using is center fire your good to go

[Molly]

I once bought a Winchester M43 from an old backwoodsman in Ga, It came with the 20 year old sales receipt from when he'd bought it, and the remainder of the original box of shells. He'd shot a deer with it every year for 20 years, and only had to shoot one of them twice. There were 29 rounds left in the box.

Granted, he'd shot them at rock-throwing distances as they came in to a salt block on the edge of his property, but the .22 Hornet did a fine job nonetheless.

[bowhunter]

i hunt mostly these days with larger vintage calibers but all through the late 70s and the 80s and early 90s i used 22-250s i killed more deer than i can remember each year. i lost only one deer ever with that caliber and that was my fault not the rifle. i would never advise anyone to use a lite round that diden't feel comfortable with it. i have read many tales by those who say the lite boolits will explode on impact, well the truth is they may not penetrate like a heavy caliber but they deliver all there energy inside the target with devastating results. shot placement my friend that is the key. i have lost deer that was hit wrong with 30-06............

[82nd airborne]

I have no idea where or when I read it, but I HAVE read that the biggest grizzly bear ever taken in a western state (don't recall which one) was shot by a squaw running a trap line. IIRC, she found the bear with ONE TOE caught in one of her traps. She walked up to it and shot it in the eye with a black powder .22 short. The bear fell over dead as a doornail, so she rolled it onto a travois or sled (don't recall details) and took it into town, where it created quite a stir.

You tell me: Author's embellishment, primitive urban legend, or fact?

I have heard this too. In the version I heard, she had 3 shots. Killed the bear with one, gave it a finisher to be sure.
She kept the third for the trip home.

[leadloader]

around here a 22lr is the weapon of choice for so called road hunters(illegal) the game warden said that most deer are taken from the road with a .22lr rimfire. impresive no a well placed shot from a bb gun can be deadly.... a gun is only as deadly as the markman behind it...

[DHB]

[QUOTE=bowhunter;1110319]i hunt mostly these days with larger vintage calibers but all through the late 70s and the 80s and early 90s i used 22-250s i killed more deer than i can remember each year. i lost only one deer ever with that caliber and that was my fault not the rifle.

Here in South Texas we have a doe only season in January. Deer hunting in South Texas is BIG business. The reason for doe only is to thin the herd. Land owners will take does in February if not enough have been taken in the annual doe hunt to balance the herd. It's been 20 years ago when I went on a "guided" doe hunt. We (2 of us) got 7 does and it cost us $50.00 each. The guide (land owner) wouldn't use anything except a 22-250, and suggested his hunters should also. His thought: one shot one kill. Of course bullet placement was important, but in his opinion not critical. His opinion not mine as to bullet placement. I have a cousin who killed many deer with a Savage 340 in 22 Hornet. He'd put the bullet in the ear every time. One accurate little rifle.
D

[JSnover]

I have heard this too. In the version I heard, she had 3 shots. Killed the bear with one, gave it a finisher to be sure.
She kept the third for the trip home.

Sounds like it could have happened. I wonder if she was a large squaw or she killed a small bear. Dragging it out must have been... a real drag! ;-)

[Four Fingers of Death]

I checked all of the posts and no one has mentioned it, but they have mentioned the book I saw it in. Taylor's African RIfles.It was either Bell or Seluous who was camped in a tree (to be away from the beasties) and he was woken up by an elephant butting the tree, almost unseating (unbranching/unbedding???) him. He drew his 22 Short pistol (used for pot animals I suppose) and fired a shot to scare it off. When he awoke apparently, there was a dead elephant slumped against the tree. The bullet had reportedly penetrated the skin at the base of the large cracks and lodged in the spine.

There was also a report of a photographer killing a rhino by accident. He set up his tripod and camera, the animal was standing with it's head turned away from the camera and was not cooperating. He then fired a round from a 22 revolver to make the rhino turn around and the bullet penetrated the skin at the base of a crack in the hide which was stretched open and lodged between two vertebre that were also stretched apart to allow the neck to turn away. As the animal swung its head back to check the sudden sound, the bullet lodged between the vertibrae, which then came together rapidly, levering them apart as a result of the great momentum generated by the swinging head and neck.

I think form memory that he reported these a stories that were doing the rounds, but I can't be sure, been a long time since I read the book. I must dig it out and have a look again.

[Molly]

I checked all of the posts and no one has mentioned it, but they have mentioned the book I saw it in. Taylor's African RIfles.It was either Bell or Seluous who was camped in a tree (to be away from the beasties) and he was woken up by an elephant butting the tree, almost unseating (unbranching/unbedding???) him. He drew his 22 Short pistol (used for pot animals I suppose) and fired a shot to scare it off. When he awoke apparently, there was a dead elephant slumped against the tree. The bullet had reportedly penetrated the skin at the base of the large cracks and lodged in the spine. ...

I once read a similar account in one of the adventure magzines like Outdoor Life. Seems the guy was a game control officer, and had stopped in at a local village to spend the night. They put him up in one of those little huts on stilts, but warned him that warthogs sometimes visited the huts and scratched their sides by rubbing against the stilts. During the night, his hut began swaying back and forth, so he took a colt woodsman and put a couple of 22 LR through the floor. Things got quiet, so he went back to sleep. Next morning, he was awakened by the hub-bub of natives outside his hut. When he went out to see what was up, he found a very dead elephant under his hut, with no marks except two 22 holes in the top of its head.

Knowing that there was absolutely no way for a 22 to have penetrated the massive skull of an elephant, he oversaw a detailed autopsy by the villagers. Seems one of the slugs had penerated a large vein and created a substantial blood clot, which was apparently caried to the heart and killed the elephant.

I can't say it's not true, for strange things DO happen. But _I'M_ not going elephant hunting with a colt woodsman.

[LazyJW]

I have no idea where or when I read it, but I HAVE read that the biggest grizzly bear ever taken in a western state (don't recall which one) was shot by a squaw running a trap line. IIRC, she found the bear with ONE TOE caught in one of her traps. She walked up to it and shot it in the eye with a black powder .22 short. The bear fell over dead as a doornail, so she rolled it onto a travois or sled (don't recall details) and took it into town, where it created quite a stir.

You tell me: Author's embellishment, primitive urban legend, or fact?

Not sure about that story, but a young Indian girl named Bella Twin killed what was at the time the world record inland grizzly bear back in the 1950's. Her weapon: a single-shot 22 rifle using Longs. She and a friend were out picking berries near Lesser Slave Lake in Canada when a large grizzly came too close, she shot it in the side of the head and it fell. She then shot the rest of her ammo into it, five or six rounds IIRC.

Her bear is still on the record books, not a long ways down from the top either.
Joe

[Molly]

i hunt mostly these days with larger vintage calibers but all through the late 70s and the 80s and early 90s i used 22-250s i killed more deer than i can remember each year. i lost only one deer ever with that caliber and that was my fault not the rifle. i would never advise anyone to use a lite round that diden't feel comfortable with it. i have read many tales by those who say the lite boolits will explode on impact, well the truth is they may not penetrate like a heavy caliber but they deliver all there energy inside the target with devastating results. shot placement my friend that is the key. i have lost deer that was hit wrong with 30-06............


FWIW, I once purchased a M. 43 Winchester in .22 Hornet from an old fellow in Georgia, who had gotten too old to hunt, and was going to live with his kids. It came with the original bill of sale, and (IIRC) 23 rounds still in the original box of ammo. He claimed to have taken 26 deer with it, only one requiring a finishing shot. However, he also mentioned that the typical deer was taken at a range of 15 or 20 feet as it browsed in his front lawn. (He lived WAY back in the pines!)

[lcclower]

I picked off a number of deer with a .22, back when I was a kid we ranched in north Texas right on Red River.
There were quite a few deer on the river bottom then, I'd just ride right up on 'em horseback, pop the deer in the forehead, I never lost one.
Had a heckuva time getting horses to put up with the blood smell, it was easier to hang the deer and come back with a pickup.

[Hickory]

Had a heckuva time getting horses to put up with the blood smell.

A little Vicks near the nose of the horse and the horse can't smell the blood.

[Multigunner]

Not sure about that story, but a young Indian girl named Bella Twin killed what was at the time the world record inland grizzly bear back in the 1950's. Her weapon: a single-shot 22 rifle using Longs. She and a friend were out picking berries near Lesser Slave Lake in Canada when a large grizzly came too close, she shot it in the side of the head and it fell. She then shot the rest of her ammo into it, five or six rounds IIRC.

Her bear is still on the record books, not a long ways down from the top either.
Joe

The story has been repeated many times with variations of the circumstances. The way I read it was the bear was breaking in her cabin door and she shot it in the eye.
I was looking at bear skulls on several sites awhile back. The structure of Brown Bear and Grizzly skull would probably allow for a bullet in the eye to reach the brain, but the Black Bear skull is somewhat different. The eye socket of the Black Bear doesn't line up with the brain case in a head on shot. A shot to a Black Bears eye socket would have to be at a steep angle to reach the brain case.

I've read that trapped Grizzly were routinely dispatched by .22 RF shots to the point were the spine meets the skull. Any internal bleeding in this area can crush delicate nerve tissue that controls breathing , its a common cause of death due to strokes.

The Daisy company made changes to their 880 BB gun after at least a dozen youngsters died from penetrating wounds to the spine or brain. This is a fairly powerful BB gun, the problem was kids thinking the gun was empty and playing with it pumped up as if it was a blank or cap gun.
It doesn't take much damage in the right spot to cause death. The only reason why rifles are as powerful as they are is getting the bullet into that right spot from a distance. That and ensuring a quick enough kill that the animal doesn't pass away peacefully after having eaten the hunter or being long gone in the brush never to be found.

[bowfin]

I read the versions LazyJW has offered. The young woman was picking berries...

[Markbo]

Well when I finally make it to Africa, I now know what I am going to take! :-D

[Jim]

Well when I finally make it to Africa, I now know what I am going to take! :-D

Hey, you could buy a new one there and leave it with the PH!:bigsmyl2:

[josper]

I was reading a book by Peter Hathaway Capstick the other night and he mentioned an event where a fellow PH told him of accidentally killing an elephant with a .22LR. The friend took Pete out into the bush and proved it by doing it again. With a broadside shot, the shooter waited 'till the elephant stepped forward and then shot into the chest immediately behind the front leg. The skin is thin and soft at this point and the bullet pierced the heart and the elephant collapsed within a minute.
Placement and penetration.

I too enjoy reading Capsticks books ,but anyone that wants to try killing an elephant with a.22 has some sort of death wish and is someone that I don't want to be around,lol.

[gandydancer]

triple u ranch south dakota, ON a buffalo hunt in 1997 I watched the owner shoot 21 buffalo in the course of a day with a ruger single action 22 mag 21 shots 21 buffalo up the shute with the man standing on top of the shute one shot in the back of the head. I got mine with a C Sharps 1874 in 45/70 460 grain LBT mold cast 105 yards off the hood of a bronco. back then cost was $1000.00 now its $2700.00 had some steaks and they where great. GD