New to casting, about ready to throw in the towel ... but ...

[JSimpson65]

Hello All,

Just wanted to share a little information regarding my intro to bullet casting in the hope that it might help someone else in my position.

I decided to get into casting for a 45/70, 45 Colt, and 357Mag. Trying to keep costs down in the beginning, I bought the Lee 10lb pot, Lee 45/70. 45Colt, and 358 molds, some wheel weight ingots off ebay, mold release and flux from Midway, plus a few other things. Well, last week I finally got everyting in and decided to give it a go. I have the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, plus a few reloading manuals that have a chapter on bullet casting, and after reading everything a couple of times felt like I was ready to go.

First attempt - 45/70. Bullets came out wrinkly even after casting 100 the quality didn't seem to improve. I had read to boil the molds in water and dish soap, but it didn't seem to have helped. To add insult to injury, bullets dropped at .454. Seemed like I had to beat the hell out of the mold to get bullets to drop, even though I used the mold release spray.

Second attempt - 45 Colt. Bullets came out wrinkly, seemed no better than the 45/70 except that they were all .451-.452 which was at least better.

OK. Now I have decided I made a big mistake buying Lee molds. Problem must be the molds and not the novice caster, right? Ordered a set of Lyman handles and a Lyman 45/70 mold, all the while wondering why I just dropped another $100 on this casting thing when I could have bought a lot of commercial cast bullets instead and just go shooting.

Fast forward one week - Lyman moulds arrive. After reading that mineral spirits is good for cleaning the oil off, I clean with mineral spirits and toothbrush, confident that I'm now well on my way to dropping nice, well formed bullets.

Third attempt - 45/70 with Lyman moulds. Just as bad as attempts #1 and #2. Now I'm really kicking myself. I'm probably out close to $300 including the lead, supplies and 4 molds and not getting anything useful. Still thinking maybe I should have just bought $300 worth of stuff from Missouri Bullets and gone shooting already.

After a couple days worth of reading about wrinkly bullets, I had decided to try the following things:

1) Soak molds in Mineral spirits for 24 hours. Did with all, and liberally brushed with toothbrush periodically as well.
2) Clean w/ alcohol when finished to remove anything left from mineral spirits.
3) Lightly soot with match, and skip the mold release spray I used before.
4) Flux pot more often using some beeswax I bought of Ebay to try pan lubing.
5) Let molds heat on rim of pot longer to make sure they are pre-heating.

Following the above steps, I went back to my Lee 45/70 mould and made about 100 or so nicely filled out, non-wrinkled bullets, of which I rejected only the first 4 or 5. Found out what frosting is, and how to adjust my pace to keep things from getting too hot. Bullets now filled out better and measure .457, so I may have to work on that. Repeated tonight with my Lyman 45/70 mould and had equal sucess.

So, for anyone else out there like me who gets discouraged, remember to keep trying and pay attention to the things you read. I'm not sure which of the above things made the most difference, but I'm happy with the results.

Thanks for reading my long-winded post and thanks to all for the wonderful resource this board is!

PS - Was casting inside my garage due to rain outside, with main door open about 2 feet and side door open for ventilation, and a raccoon walked in just as I was finishing up. Thought it might get exciting for a moment, but he ran out the open overhead door pretty quick.

[TCLouis]

After all that I have one suggestion . . .

Wrinkly Boolits Turn up the temperature

[JSimpson65]

TCLouis,

Sorry for being so long winded.

According to my Lyman thermometer, I was casting around 850 degrees and getting wrinkly bullets. Some even had slightly frosted bases with wrinkly noses and still badly filled out.

Thanks,

Joe

[Jaybird62]

If your 45/70 boolits are still coming out undersized, try "Beagleing" them. There are several posts here that explain. Tip: I found muffler repair tape at a local auto parts store for a couple of bucks. It's the best material I've found for making the strips to place on the mould face to open up the cast diameter.

[Nora]

Welcome JSimpson65

Your lead is plenty hot. I'd say your mold is still to cold. Try casting faster till the hole boolit is slightly frosty, not just the base.

Nora

[Goatlips]

Hey JSimpson,
I'd bet that an honest count here would be that probably 90% of us had about as much luck as you did on the first few tries. Even the mold manuals say that one should expect problems. And when you finally figure out what you were doing wrong - you're wrong. Perseverance, as you have found, usually works, at least it did for me. And Welcome! :drinks:

Goatlips
Rank amateur caster but havin' fun :Fire:

[Russel Nash]

I let the mould sit barely into the melt.

It transfers heat directly to mould and gets it nice and warmed up.

The only problem is that sometimes the lead likes to stick to the bottom of the mould.

You can watch my video here.... it might help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTrD8buyIHY&feature=channel_page

[fredj338]

Well I would be very suspect of the alloy bought on e-bay. You just have no idea what it is. You may want to try a known alloy, like 20-1 from Rotometals, before you get too discouraged, but it sounds like you may have figured out your initial issues.
You have to enjoy casting to do it or have access to free or cheap alloy. Much more than $1/#, I won't cast but buy commercial for general shooting. I do cast my hunting bullets & some other specialty ones & enjoy doing it, but 1000s of general purpose bullets, not unless the alloy is near free.

[Jumbopanda]

Well I would be very suspect of the alloy bought on e-bay. You just have no idea what it is. You may want to try a known alloy, like 20-1 from Rotometals, before you get too discouraged, but it sounds like you may have figured out your initial issues.
You have to enjoy casting to do it or have access to free or cheap alloy. Much more than $1/#, I won't cast but buy commercial for general shooting. I do cast my hunting bullets & some other specialty ones & enjoy doing it, but 1000s of general purpose bullets, not unless the alloy is near free.

That's definitely something for me to think about.

[Buckshot]

.............JSimpson65, welcome to the board. Sounds to me as if almost ALL of your problems were due to 2 things. One was the mould cavities weren't really free of petroleum 'stuff' and secondly the use of the mould release crud. The cavities MUST be clean. When you think you have a new set of blocks clean, clean them again.

Cleaning in very hot water and detergent is a very good way to go, adding that scrubbing with an old toothbrush is also reguired. Remember, if doing this scrubbing is going to leave the oily preservative floating around on the surface of the water. Putting the blocks back in and pulling them out 'may' be allowing some of this (now hot and much thinned, but still bad) oil to touch and possibly get back on the blocks, if not the cavities. Dump out the hot water, and flush the container, refill with hot water and detergent and do it again. Rinse the blocks under running hot water.

My method is (to me) simpler, not as messy and faster. However it WILL cost about $2 and that is for the can of carbureter cleaner. I will use almost a full can of the stuff, but once done I've never had casting problems caused by contaminated cavities. Nor have I spent some length of time dealing with boiling hot water or oily container surfaces, etc.

That mould release spray is an attempt at a fix for a problem, and is also a problem all it's own. If you're using the Midway mould release it could be why your boolits were or are dropping undersized. The junk adds a measurable thickness to the walls of the cavity, hense a smaller boolit. Normally boolits that are reluctant to drop from the cavity is caused by 2 things. A cavity slightly off center, with the slug hanging in the deeper side or tiny metal hairs on outside corners or slivers or burrs at the cavity edges on the parting line.

Since the alloy shrinks a bit as it cools, the boolit should fall out of it's own weight or after a tap on the handle hinge pin. Offset cavities is poor setup or machine operation. The hairs and slivers or 'dragover' across the parting line is from rushing the tools, dull tools, poor lube/coolant flow or recutting of chips. Due to a particular political situation our country is suffering from, gun and gun related items have sold in record numbers, and manufacturers have sped up production of items in high demand. Due to this and the cost of commercial cast, and jacketed bullets many new people have been added to the ranks of boolit casters.

As a consequense boolit moulds have been scarce, and production increased to meet the demand. I haven't heard many complaints about the recent lack of quality of RCBS, Saeco, or NEI moulds but have heard of this concerning the Lee and Lyman moulds. Naturally these are the 2 least expensive blocks out there.

Once you have the blocks clean, and your alloy is up to temp and fluxed, what I do is to hold the block's bottom front edge in the melt until the alloy doesn't stick to it. Take them out for a good slow 30 count, to allow the heat to migrate and somewhat equilize through the blocks. Then pour the slug(s). If by the 3rd pour you don't have nice clean boolits dropping from the cavity, try sooting them lightly.

Use ONLY a zippo or Bic type butane lighter for this. NO CANDLES! Don't try and turn the cavities black. All you need is a smudgy suggestion they've been sooted. With clean cavities, correct block and alloy temp, a sufficient flow from the pot (if a bottom pour) you should be now dropping mass quantities of superlative cast boolits.

Your moulds require lube and I'd strongly suggest you get ahold of the fine folks at the Bullshop (see bottom of the forum page below) for their webpage, and avail yourself of some Bullplate lube.

.....................Buckshot

[Bret4207]

Buckshot gives some very good advice. I'll just add that some moulds seem to require a little time to straighten themselves out. It seems like some stubborn moulds "fix" themselves by the 2nd or third try. In truth I think it's the crud working itself out of the mould.

[EMC45]

Buckshot gives some very good advice. I'll just add that some moulds seem to require a little time to straighten themselves out. It seems like some stubborn moulds "fix" themselves by the 2nd or third try. In truth I think it's the crud working itself out of the mould.

Well put! I have had molds that were about to go in the trash, then after the 2nd or 3rd casting session they started to throw some really nice bullets!

[XWrench3]

i am glad for you that you didn't get to discouraged and give up. i had a bit of trouble in the beginning as well, still do from time to time. this is one of those "you just got to stick to it, and NEVER give up" hobbies. after you do this for a while, and get some good experiences under your belt, you will actually end up enjoying it, i do. +1 on getting some good known lead sources. if nothing else, go get some wheel weights from a tire store and melt them yourself. the big thing about that is making sure you do not melt in any zinc wheel weights! which may be part of the problem with your ebay lead. and there is no way of detecting it once it is in there. eventually, you will end up with a decent supply of wheel weights, that you have smelted yourself, some tin, and some pure soft lead to mix your own alloys with. that is where i am getting in my ventures. i only have about 15 pounds of soft lead so far though, so it is pretty hard to get very far with that little bit. i have mixed up some 50/50 mix 45/70 bullets (made them saturday) but i have not had a chance to lube and size them yet, let alone shoot them. the lee 45/70 molds, are suposed to drop .457" boolits. i dont really know why, but that is what is marked on the box. my first mold, i had to send back because it was casting out of round boolits. the replacement mold, is at least round. i am going to shoot a few of these before deciding on either beagleing this mold, or using a boolit, and some valve grinding compound to enlarge the cavity. if it leads with this set of boolits, something wiill get done to them! for what it is worth, what i have found to make lee molds cast well, is to get them H O T! then, cool them down. then, i get good boolits. i use a towel saturated with water to periodicly cool off the mold while casting. i run the temp @ 700-750 degrees and that seems to work well for me. i have yet to cast a shiney boolit from a lee mold that does not have wrinkles. so frost away. if it hurt their performance, i would be upset. it will take some experimentation, but soon, you will start having fun.

[JSimpson65]

Thanks to all,

Lots of good info here to keep in mind. I agree that I probably had more than one problem going on including not cleaning the molds well enough, not pre-heating molds enough, maybe not fluxing enough and using the mold release spray.

I'm probably going to try the beagling to see if I can get the 45/70 to drop at .458 - .459

Russell - thanks for the video link. Always helpful to be able to watch someone who knows what they are doing.

I also forgot to mention that I added about 2ft of lead free solder on the successful casts. Not sure if that helped or not since I changed so many things at once.

Also, are there any good uses for the Midway mold release spray? I don't think I'll be using it on the molds anymore, but maybe it's good for other uses?

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.

Joe

[JSimpson65]

XWrench3,

Looks like we posted at about the same time. I'm starting to wonder about the Ebay lead as well as suggested by several folks here. It is melted wheel weights, but for all I know they just tossed everything in the pot and melted it all into ingots without worrying about what went into it. I do notice that on some of the bullets there are small specks that I assume are some kind of contamination. Will fluxing more get rid of this? It isn't too noticeable, but is definately there on some of the bullets.

[wills]

You can make an aluminum foil "boat" for for your mold to float in, let it sit on the alloy until it warms up to operating temperature.

[felix]

Yes, flux and let cool. Repeat a couple of times, and the lead will eventually clean up. Use different fluxes per heat-up, and this will help bring odd ball contaminates up quicker. In other words, play games and make it a fun job. ... felix

[Zbench]

I'll certainly echo the comments of those here about the problems with Ebay lead.

Since they come from Wheel Weights, who knows how careful whoever melted them down was when they did it to make sure no zinc was in there. Zinc causes poor fill out. You can get it out (as was recently discovered in the lead forum with sulfur), but for a beginner, this is unreasonable.

I started casting not long ago and found that pretty much all the commercial moulds are really "starter kits". I bought a Lyman mould and even after sending it back it still isn't right. RCBS moulds are better, but need beagled to drop boolits. It's a pain, and you shouldn't have to do it, but it is a reality.

Best thing you can do is experiment with beagling your moulds and buy some alloy that is 100% legit. I'd go with Lyman #2. If you can't get that to drop good bullets by the 4th or 5th pour, your problems are either in the mould or in the technique. Adding mystery metal from Ebay into the mix adds one more variable that you can't account for.

There are several vendors selling good alloy, including us, but I urge you where ever you buy it, try some and see how things might improve after beagling your mould.

Pete

PS. The comments about cleaning are spot on. I use carburetor cleaner as recommended above, then I carefully, with a Q tip, clean the cavities with acetone. Real acetone, not nail cleaner. I do the bottom of the sprue plate as well as the top of the mould. I repeat this until the Q tip stays white and is not dirty from any sort of gunk. When finished, I blow any lint out with some compressed air. It's pretty fast, and when you are done, it's clean. It's the white glove test for moulds.

[machinisttx]

I cast my first bullets about a week ago, and threw a lot more good bullets than bad from the ten pound pot.

I think it made a difference that I had good instruction from a long time caster standing right beside me.

[bedwards]

I think the main thing here and has been said is "don't give up". I've been casting on and off since the late 80's and I've had some moulds here lately that make me scratch my head. I tried every trick I know it's like finally something clicks and they all start casting well.

good luck
be

[Echo]

This whole thread ought to be copied, edited, and placed in all the gun rags.

[462]

J,

Excellent first post that should be required reading for all new casters. You experienced a problem and tried to work to work it out yourself before asking for help.

With the help that is willingly offered here, I was able to overcome a very frustrating, new caster problem I was having. Every attempt I made to correct it was just another exercise in futility. I had almost decided to call it quits, when I decided to seek some Cast Boolit advise. With the input from gracious members, I was able to eliminate the problem.

I've had to beagle two moulds to get the correct boolit size. It's easily done and the mould can always be returned to its original configuration.

Lee moulds require a lot of heat. Turn the thermostat to its highest setting. Also, there is a sticky about "Leementing" Lee moulds, that is very helpful.

Start collecting wheel weights and smelting your own ingots.

You will probably encounter further problems, some of which you will be able to figure out. For the others, this is the place to turn to for assistance.

[Larry Gibson]

I echo Buckshots recomendations and will add one more.

With the large 45-70 and 45 Colt bullets the alloy must get into the mould fast. Make sure the rod that allows the alloy out of the bottom spout is adjusted as far open as it can go. That means the adjustment that controlls how far you are lifting it up. Also keep the pot 1/2+ full of alloy to keep the pressure high coming out of the spout. With the larger bullets and the smaller 10 lb pot this will mean adding more alloy more frequently. With cast bullets of 300+ grs I use a Lyman dipper instead of the furnace spout to get very good, well filled out cast bullets.

Larry Gibson

[Huntducks]

I heat my molds up with a propane torch.

[fredj338]

I heat my molds up with a propane torch.
I would certasinly be carefull w/ that, especially w/ aluminum. Warping seems a greater possibilty than just setting them on the ege of your pot.

[GLL]

Follow Buckshot's plan !

My only suggestion is to buy a bottle of DAWN brand detergent. Once you have cleaned the moulds a second time just repeat it a third time !!! USE SUPER HOT water ! :)

Most of the problems I have had are related to moulds that are not super clean.

Clean alloy and high enough temperature are the next to consider.

Jerry

[cbrick]

JSimpson65, well your from the right town for a brand new caster, it is something that humbled every single one of us when we first started.

Very solid advice given so far so there isn't any reason to repeat it. I'll just add that aluminum gives off heat far faster than does iron, takes a bit more to get'em up to casting temp and takes a faster rythm (more heat) to keep'em at casting temp. Look at it as not pouring alloy but rather your pouring heat and the proper amount of heat is needed for properly filled out boolits.

Good for you for not giving up, soon you'll still be from Humble but not humbled.

Rick

[montana_charlie]

PS - Was casting inside my garage due to rain outside, with main door open about 2 feet and side door open for ventilation, and a raccoon walked in just as I was finishing up. Thought it might get exciting for a moment, but he ran out the open overhead door pretty quick.
Racoons make good flux, but you need a big pot...

[TAWILDCATT]

there are stickys here that explain all the steps and mistakes.YOU DID NOT READ THEM.I also like the 20 lb pot hold more metal but it also holds the heat better.

[TAWILDCATT]

also Lees handloading book explains most all.and lyman cast bullet is good.the more you know the less trouble you will have I have 72 yrs experiance.casting
and still learning.
I have every ones cat. as I like to read and see whats there.

[DLCTEX]

-I preheat my moulds by dunking the corners into the melt. When the mould is hot the lead will shed easily, although small bits may have to be wiped off with a towel or a gloved hand.

[runfiverun]

the start them hot and cool as you go till you hit the happy temp is how i run all my aluminum molds not just the lees.
once i hit that temp i go like the dickens and cast a pile of them.
the rain certainly helped you also.

[gashooter]

Casting can have some frustrating bumps (don't ask me about gas checks[smilie=b:).
A few things from my own experiences are:
Straight from the box I have only cleaned my molds with contact cleaner , brake cleaner as suggested would be just as good. No sticking at all. Steel mold + water = rust.
You said you got ww lead. That is high in antimony and hard. Alloys of that type have more "shrink back", maybe that would help explain why they are small out of the mold. Maybe mix in some pure lead and see how it goes.
I try using a pot thermometer but it seems to be just a reference only. Cold molds/alloy = wrinkles, excessive heat = frost. Just try to watch your bullets and adjust accordingly.

Lots of good info can be had from this forum, ask questions and keep trying.

[Heavy lead]

I'm one who uses hotter than hell water with dawn, yes even on iron moulds.
Read through this thread and I saw no mention of tin. Keep yourself a couple rolls of 95/5 around (95% tin/5% antimony), when you're not getting good fillout add some to pot and flux, stir well. I've done this quite a bit when I get a tough casting session, and it makes life much easier. You'll get the hang of it when to add and when you don't need to, tin doesn't make the alloy much harder, just much easier to work with.

[Ken O]

I think we have all had the problem of not getting all the cutting oil off a new mold. I'm a big fan of carb cleaner, it washes it out real good, then evaporates leaving it extra clean and ready to use right away. The dollar store has the big cans of carb cleaner real cheap. I never used brake cleaner, I don't know if it is a good sub or not. The carb cleaner smell like acetone.

I don't like putting the mold in the lead to pre-heat. The lead gets into places it shouldn't be. I bought a electic hot plate at a second hand store for 50 cents and use it. I flip it over a few times while the lead is coming up to temperture, and is ready to go about the same time.

[35remington]

Lee's 45 caliber rifle moulds are advertised to cast at .457", and from hard personal experience I can tell you that's just what they cast.

This is a bit undersized, and not helpful. .459-.460" would be more preferable.

Two fixes, besides beagling.

One, send Lee 25 bucks and ask to get a mould that casts on the large side of their tolerance range. I've done so in the past and got moulds that now go .460-.461", which is ideal for my 45-70 Marlin.

Second, buy their 405 HB mould, which casts to .462" in my copy. There's a trick to using this mould. It fills better with either a dipper (not Lee's as it doesn't have the capacity or "head pressure") or with pressure from the pot's pouring spout held directly on the sprue plate chamfer, which allows the head pressure from the weight of lead in the pot to fully fill out the hollow base of the bullet.

Failure to do so leaves a void at the apex of the hollow cavity.

[MtGun44]

Maybe add a bit of tin to the alloy, too.

Scrub cavities of a new Lee with Comet and a toothbrush. Takes off the goop and a lot
of the smaller burrs, too.

Bill

[JSimpson65]

there are stickys here that explain all the steps and mistakes.YOU DID NOT READ THEM.I also like the 20 lb pot hold more metal but it also holds the heat better.

Actually, I did read the stickys, and thought I understood things well enough to get started casting. I have the Lyman cast bullet handbook, and read it cover to cover. Also have Lee, Lyman, and several other reloading manuals, all of which I have read. I've also been silently lurking on this forum, reading and doing a lot of searches trying to answer my own questions without bothering everyone here with my typical noob mistakes.

In my case, part of the problem was that, having never cast bullets before, it's hard to know what you don't know. You can read about fluxing, preheating molds, frosted bullets, cleaning molds, etc. all day, but that doesn't guarantee success. I think I had several things going against me - contaminated molds, not running molds hot enough, not fluxing enough, possible less-than-perfect alloy, etc. When you combine all of these with inexperience, it makes it a little trying.

I cast some 45colt and 357's with the remaining 2 Lee molds tonight, and all went well. In both cases, maybe the first 10-15 were rejects as the mold was heating up, then suddenly the bullets started getting uniformly frosted and well filled out with no wrinkles. I was very happy with the results. Maybe 100 of each with only about the first 10% rejected. I now realize one of my bigger problems (maybe the only problem?) was that I wasn't letting the molds heat up enough. Even letting them sit on the edge of the pot, it still took awhile to get them well-filled out. Now that I know how to recognize what is going on, it seems pretty simple as I am sure it all seems more than simple to most of you folks with tons more experience than I.

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions and encouragement!

[nonferrous]

I took a new 6 cavity Lee .358 mold, soaked it in mineral spirits for 48 hours. Using a 20 pound Lee prouduction pot and clip on lead, I was dropping good boolits after the third fill, made over 300 keepers in one hour with only one fluxing.
I found the key to be, getting the mold up to temp, running the melt at about 675 to 700 degrees and when they start coming, keep pouring.
I also found that leaving the thermometer in the melt was a big help in adjusting the temp.

[462]

J,

Seems you have a handle on things. Next up is to see how they shoot.

Keep in mind that each mould will be unique unto itself. You may want to make some notes indicating the thermostat setting that produces the best boolits for each mould.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

You might want to read the Leementing threads , if your molds are undersized for your purpose, works great on aluminum molds.