311466 in the M1 Garand?

[GrizzLeeBear]

Just got a Garand this week and shot it with some jacketed loads yesterday. Shoots pretty well with 46.5 gr. of surplus IMR 4895 and a 150 gr. Hornady bullet.
I've got a 4 cavity 311466 and have had good luck with this boolit in other .30 cal. rifles, and being a 4 banger I can cast a lot of boolits in short order to feed the Garand. Slugged the bore and it measures .309 in the grooves and .300 across the lands. I do have the Lee 200 gr. RN in a two cavity, but that boolit runs .303+ on the nose and I think that might be a feeding problem in the Garand. Plus the 150 gr. Lyman boolit would stretch the lead suppy a bit.
Anyone have any good loads for the Garand with the 311466 that will function the gun properly?
I've done some searching and it looks like a load of 28 - 32 gr. of 4895 with a Dacron filler might be a good place to start. I got 8 lb.s of the 4895 a couple months ago, so that is the powder I would like to stay with. Finally got me a something to shoot in some John C. Garand matches next summer! Yippie!

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Congratulations on your Garand acquisition! Must show pics, must.... ;)

If you don't have one of these yet, order one:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=777146

That way you can concentrate on your most accurate load, instead of what loads make the action fully functional without beating the brass to death. ;)

Lyman/Ideal #39 reloading handbook (circa 1953) had a starting load of 35gr 4895 @ 1950fps for 153gr GC boolits. There was no suggested max for lead boolits, but you'd probably be all over the place by 42gr.

Don't forget that Garands are susceptible to slam-fires. Full-length case resizing, primers seated slightly below flush, and keep your boolits away from the rifling. Using those Lees with noses over bore size would definitely cause a big problem.

Speaking of full-length case resizing, if you don't have a headspace gage, try to pick one up to set up your sizing die. It'll make your case necks last longer, and help reduce the chance of head separation.
Midway's out right now, but here's a link: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=685086

[GrizzLeeBear]

SierraW, thanks for the help.

I'm not sure, but I think the adjustable gas plugs are legal for regular Service Rifle, but not the Garand Matches.
Yes, I am aware of the slam-fire issue. Thats why I think the "fat" nose of the Lee boolit may be a problem.
Thanks for the link on the headspace gage, might have to find one.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

OK, well the Garands were originally made to fire 150gr to 168gr rounds at around 2640fps to 2750fps.

If you're going to deviate very much from that, you'll really need to be able to "tweak" the gas ejection system.

People sometimes try doing things like firing really heavy J-word bullets backed up by slow-burning powders, and end up beating their operating rods and receivers to an early demise.

If the adjustable gas plugs aren't legal for Garand matches, then I would imagine that cast boolits would be out as well.

[BruceB]

Just do a search here at Cast Boolits for "Garand" and "M1". There's a LOT of info here on shooting cast bullets in the M1, and it doesn't take special parts or anything but the willingness to learn and follow instructions.

Shooting cast loads is very different from using jacketed bullets, and that's the first thing to realize. 311466 has worked alright for me in the Garand, but I'm discontinuing its use in the M1A (M-14 type) due to some issues in chambering. In both the Garand and the M1A, it's CRITICAL to use bullets which do not contact the rifling at all when being chambered. This is to reduce the chance of slam-fires, which are not uncommon in these rifles.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Bruce, can you share your loads with the 311466 in the Garand?
Sounds like you have had some issues with it in the M1A, but not the Garand, correct?
Is there a boolit that you have had better results with in the Garand?

[Larry Gibson]

GrizzLeeBear

"I've done some searching and it looks like a load of 28 - 32 gr. of 4895 with a Dacron filler might be a good place to start."

That, indeed, would be a good place to start. As Bruce mentions you do not want the driving bands to engage the leade. This can cause chambering problems as mentioned. My 311466 in the long neck of the '06 chambered fine when the GC was at the base of the case neck in most all the M1s i tried it in. It also is about the most accurate cast bullet available for velocities above 2000 fps in the gas operated M1. Suggest you start at 28 gr of the 4895 with a 1/2 - 3/4 gr dacron filler. Work up in 1/2 gr increments until 100% functioning is achieved and stop there. Accuracy will be about as good as it will get at that point.

If reliable functioning is not achieved before 2100-2200 fps are reached then a slower powder is needed. I've had very good luck with AA4350 and H4831SC giving consistent ignition and sufficient gas prot pressure for reliable functioning with the lighter 150-160 gr 311466 in the 2100-2200 fps range. Accuracy has been as good or better than most M2 ball ammo.

Larry Gibson

[GrizzLeeBear]

Well, worked up to 32 gr. and no joy on functioning. :sad: The 32 grains almost ejected a couple. Accuracy remained good though.

So, whats next?

Keep adding more powder?

Go to a slower powder? I've got a bunch of RE-15, would that work?

Get a heavier boolit, say a 311284?

All of the above?

[Jack Stanley]

A very long time ago I manage to get decent groups using a 311334 which is heavier than you are using .

If all I had was the 311466 , I think I'd try a bit slower powder and put just a little more push at the port with it .

Jack

[GrizzLeeBear]

Well got something else to try. Got a Lee C309-180-R. Just got done casting some. Casts .300 on the nose and .310+ on the drive bands. Looks to be a PERFECT fit for my M1! Now to load some up and see if I can work up to a load that functions the Garand.

[madsenshooter]

Keep going up with the 4895 until you get it to function, then work on the needed boolit hardness. My guess is 35-37gr of your 4895, velocity will be 2200-2270 and will require a BHN range of 27.2-29.9. You won't need an adjustable gas plug unless you decide to shoot a caseful of 860 or something like that.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Finally got out to the range to shoot some of the Lee 180's. I decided to try some loads with Reloader 15 to get a little more pressure at the port to try and get better functioning. RE-15 has a burn rate between 4064 and 4350. Doing a little interpolating from the Lyman Cast handbook, it looked like 35 - 37 gr. should get me 1900 - 2000 fps. So, I loaded 8 rounds each of 35, 36, and 37 grains with 1 gr. of dacron. I just single loaded them all to see if they would eject and lock the bolt back.
35 grains ejected fine, but did not lock the bolt back.
36 grains ejected and locked the bolt back on 4 out of 8.
37 grains ejected brass 6 - 8 feet at 1 - 2 oclock (pretty close to what it does with jacketed ammo) and locked the bolt back on all 8.
Accuracy was as good or better than jacketed at 50 yards. Now were getting somewhere!
Now I need to load some into clips and see how it will function.

[madsenshooter]

Good deal, the function is down, now the accuracy. You should be getting around 1880fps at a chamber pressure of 21,700PSI. That would require a hardness of only 17.2 for best accuracy, water dropping your bullets will get you that, if you're casting with wheelweights. Keep us posted with your experiments.

[GrizzLeeBear]

I just used AC WW for my first batch of boolits (about 100 or so) with this mold. Next casting session I will water drop them. I would have water dropped them, but I had just gotten two other molds and was anxious to try them all out and didn't remember that I wanted to water drop the boolits to try in the Garand. :veryconfu

[madsenshooter]

Sometimes forgetting things helps the process, now you can see if it makes a difference or not. Try to give them some time to come to their full hardess before loading and firing. Are we having fun yet?