Still Looking!

[Mark Daiute]

Still looking for loads in my Krag and No.1 MKIII SMLE using my 200 grain mold!

My most plentiful powders are 4064 and 4759.

Thanks,

Mark

[waksupi]

Mark, I don't own one, but you might kick things off, by telling the guys what you have tried so far.

[scb]

Not sure what kind of load your looking for. My 1898 Krag will shoot 311284's into 3" or less at 200 yds with 10 grs. of Unique. I'm sure it has a trajectory like a rainbow, relatively speaking.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Here are some ancient loads from Lyman/Ideal #39 reloading handbook (1953) for the .30/40 Krag:

197gr Cast Pain Base, suggested starting 14.9gr 4759 @ 1340fps
207gr Cast Gas Check, suggested starting 18.0gr 4759 @ 1650fps, max 22.0gr @ 1815fps

There was only 1 load for 4064, but it was for a 180gr cast gas check boolit. 36gr, 2050fps. I do not know how 4064 would perform with a more reduced load, but I don't think I'd want to try it on information this sketchy.

My Dad got great results with 15.0gr 4759 with a spire-point GC 170gr lead boolit in .30-06. Those were limited to velocities of around 1,600fps.

If your boolits are spire point and/or plain base, I suggest starting out at 15.0gr of 4759, and increase by 0.7gr-0.8gr until you find the "sweet spot", indicated by reduced vertical stringing.

If your boolits are GC bore-riders or otherwise have a well-supported nose, you might start a couple grains higher.

[Mark Daiute]

Thanks guys!

So far Ive tried 17 grains 4759 in the SMLE with so-so results, that being a 2" group at 50 yards.... Gas checked boolit. The mold is a Lyman 314299. Load seemed so mild I was wondering about booting it up a bit. Glad to know about vertical stringing.

In the Krag that load is making ragged holes at 50 yards. I test my loads out in the back yard so, at least for now, I'm limited to 50 yards... Totally happy with the accuracy of the load in the Krag but, again, the load seems so mild.

I'm very grateful for the 1953 data. That was the year I was born and my Krag (1900) was younger than I am now and the 1918 BSA was a young 32 years old!!

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Wow - long bore-rider with only a couple of drive bands. What alloy are you casting with?

That nose needs to be mighty close to your bore size, or it'll klunk around a good bit before getting out of the barrel. With those rifles being quite elderly, I think I'd slug them from both ends and pay close attention to any tight/loose spots.

You might find the Wilk gas check interesting; here's a link to a .pdf article:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl134partial.pdf
Article starts on the 6th page.
It might be beneficial to try a Wilk GC in that upper drive band to complement the bottom GC. However, that's not going to help much if the nose of your boolit is flopping around in the bore.

If your boolit noses turn out to be undersized for your bore(s), you might consider "Beagling" your mold, documented on the castpics.net site.

If your bores are badly worn undersized at the throat or muzzle, you might consider having the barrels re-lined. That ain't cheap, but much preferable to chopping off one end or the other and re-crowning or re-setting the headspace. Too many classic military rifles have been ruined as collector's items by customization.

4759 is an excellent powder for reduced rifle loads, but it has a tendency to bridge in powder throws/funnels- so beware. Best to weigh each load using a powder scale while you're working up loads; that way you can pretty well eliminate one variable from the equation.

[Mark Daiute]

Casting wheel weights, air cooled.

Mark

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

OK. Would be good if you could possibly recover a few rounds; maybe fire them into edge-wise placed old water-soaked telephone books.

[PAT303]

With 4064 start with 34 grns and keep going until the acurracy drops off or you reach your recoil limit.Just lately I have been trying 8mm mauser boolits run through a .317 sizer and they are showing promise.You can go to 4350 and start at 38 grains and go up or 4895 at 30 and up.30grns of 4895 with a pinch of dacron shoots well in the 303 and 7.62x54. Pat

[StarMetal]

Wow - long bore-rider with only a couple of drive bands. What alloy are you casting with?

That nose needs to be mighty close to your bore size, or it'll klunk around a good bit before getting out of the barrel. With those rifles being quite elderly, I think I'd slug them from both ends and pay close attention to any tight/loose spots.

You might find the Wilk gas check interesting; here's a link to a .pdf article:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl134partial.pdf
Article starts on the 6th page.
It might be beneficial to try a Wilk GC in that upper drive band to complement the bottom GC. However, that's not going to help much if the nose of your boolit is flopping around in the bore.

If your boolit noses turn out to be undersized for your bore(s), you might consider "Beagling" your mold, documented on the castpics.net site.

If your bores are badly worn undersized at the throat or muzzle, you might consider having the barrels re-lined. That ain't cheap, but much preferable to chopping off one end or the other and re-crowning or re-setting the headspace. Too many classic military rifles have been ruined as collector's items by customization.

4759 is an excellent powder for reduced rifle loads, but it has a tendency to bridge in powder throws/funnels- so beware. Best to weigh each load using a powder scale while you're working up loads; that way you can pretty well eliminate one variable from the equation.

That's not exactly so. I have a Krag with a pretty good bore and I shoot both the 314299 and the 311284 and when younger both those went into an inch and sometimes less at 100 yards at medium velocity with rifle powders.

Joe

[Bret4207]

Standard "go to" or "fitzall" loads for the 30/40 and 303 sized cases include 13.0 Red Dot and 16.0 2400. With 4064 I'd start around 33-34.0 gr.

[Char-Gar]

A word of caution about the Krag. These rifles employ the same single heat treated steel as the low numbered 03 Springfields. This means they are a tad more brittle that later steels. Fast powders deliver their peak pressure well...fast. That is fine as long as those peak pressure are fairly low. So, 4759, 2400, 4227 and the like are just fine in the Krag for loads that do not exceed about 1.6 or 1.7 K fps.

If you are looking for cast bullet loads at full snort factory/military speeds, you will want to use medium burning powders that will give less of a sudden jolt to the rifle. 3031, 4895 and many others of similiar speed are the powders to use. Your 4064 will fit this nitch well. Even slower powders work well, if you can get enough in the case to get the pressure/velocity you want.

Using these powders, it is possible to spit out a 200 grain bullet at 1.9 or 2.0 K fps with good accuracy. My favorite top end Krag load is 50/WC872/200-220 grains GC cast bullet. WC872 is a very slow ball machine powder developed for the 20mm Vulcan round. It continues to burn well down the barrel.

[Mark Daiute]

This is all great. Thanks for the info. Makes it all the more enjoyable.

Mark

[docone31]

4895 is the sweetest powder I have used in my #1MKIII.
Best overall groups, cleanest bore. I got 4064 when the powder panic hit. Haven't tried that yet.

[Mark Daiute]

So what were the loads with the 4895? :)

Mark

[docone31]

Most were around 44gns. It depended on temp.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

docone31, did you have any chrony and/or chamber pressure data to go along with that?

44 grains of 4895 would be OK in a .30-06 with 200gr J-word bullets, but I am somewhat concerned that it could be just too much for a .30-40 Krag.

Maximum listed IMR 4895 load for a 200gr J-word bullet in .30-40 Krag is 41gr, 2,247fps in an old Lyman #45 reloading book. Hodgdon's current online reloading data for a Krag using J-word bullets is lower than that; 35.5g IMR 4895 for a 180gr, 2,270fps. This may very well be a typographical error; it would be well worth the time to give a call to Hodgdon to find out for certain.

The same Lyman #45 book gives a starting load of 37gr IMR 4895 for a 200gr J-word bullet, 2,032 fps.

Not trying to cause dissent; just wanted to make sure that it would be a safe load for these old rifles.

There's some other info in the start of the .30-40 loads:
Dupont IMR 4350 and Hodgdon's 4831 powders gave the most uniform velocities with the jacketed bullets tested.
Excellent accuracy was obtained with cast bullets of 173 grains and greater.
Caution: A good many Krag rifles which we have inspected show cracks around the locking lug on the bolt. Have your rifle inspected by a gunsmith before using it.

[docone31]

That is my load for the Smelly.
I have no idea what a Krag uses.

[KCSO]

All right 4064 will work after a fashion in the Krag. I have gotten excellent results with it in 303 with 180 gran J word bullets but for some reason it has never lived up to expectations with cast. I have always gottten better groups with IMR 4895, Imr 3031 and WW748.
In my Krag right now I am using 4895 to push a 220 RNFP to 2000 fps for a hnting load. For plinking I have setteled on a 165 grain bullet with 12.5 of Red Dot or 10.0 of Unique. For the 303 IMR 3031 has always come in tops for me. I have tried 4064 but groups have always been 2" or more larger than those with other powders.

Both calibers have been outstanding with lighter bullets too and the Lee soupcan in either with 6.0 of Unique is an excellent samll game load that just about matches the 32-20 in power and accuracy.

[StarMetal]

All right 4064 will work after a fashion in the Krag. I have gotten excellent results with it in 303 with 180 gran J word bullets but for some reason it has never lived up to expectations with cast. I have always gottten better groups with IMR 4895, Imr 3031 and WW748.
In my Krag right now I am using 4895 to push a 220 RNFP to 2000 fps for a hnting load. For plinking I have setteled on a 165 grain bullet with 12.5 of Red Dot or 10.0 of Unique. For the 303 IMR 3031 has always come in tops for me. I have tried 4064 but groups have always been 2" or more larger than those with other powders.

Both calibers have been outstanding with lighter bullets too and the Lee soupcan in either with 6.0 of Unique is an excellent samll game load that just about matches the 32-20 in power and accuracy.

You made a good point there KSCO. I too shoot lots of 4064 in jacketed loads in my 7mm-08 which it excels in. I found the same thing as you that it's not as good as 4895 in any of my cast loads.

Joe

[Mark Daiute]

All right 4064 will work after a fashion in the Krag. I have gotten excellent results with it in 303 with 180 gran J word bullets but for some reason it has never lived up to expectations with cast. I have always gottten better groups with IMR 4895, Imr 3031 and WW748. For the 303 IMR 3031 has always come in tops for me. I have tried 4064 but groups have always been 2" or more larger than those with other powders.

Both calibers have been outstanding with lighter bullets too and the Lee soupcan in either with 6.0 of Unique is an excellent samll game load that just about matches the 32-20 in power and accuracy.

KCSO- I have some 3031- what are your loads?

Best,

Mark