Best Alloy for Lee 45 ACP Microband Mold

[NonPCnraRN]

Rotometals sells 30:1 and 40:1 lead to tin alloys. If I want a 230 gr truncated cone bullet that will deform at regular 45 ACP velocities but also feed reliably in a 1911 which alloy would be best? My goal is a self defense load where the size of the meplat enlarges upon impact and as it penetrates. The bullet in question is the truncated cone design with microband lube grooves.

[Dale53]

This may be a difficult task - the velocity of the .45 ACP is normally just slightly faster than 800 fps (we'll say 850 fps for the sake of argument). This is below the typical requirement of 1000 fps for expansion in a handgun bullet. Couple that with the need for fairly hard bullets needed to handle the shallow rifling in the .45 ACP and you have a problem. My normal alloy for the .45 ACP is WW+2%tin. I would not expect expansion at normal .45 ACP velocities.

However, the MiHec 200 gr H.P. I suspect will expand and expand well when you use an alloy of 80%WW+20% pure lead with an additional 2%tin for good casting qualities. Other than a good hollow point and rather soft alloys, you will have a difficult time with expansion in this caliber. I have cast some of the described hollow points but haven't yet loaded and tested them. Others, however, have done so with excellent expansion.

Dale53

[HeavyMetal]

I'm gonna agree with Dale, if you make these soft enough to expand at 45 auto velocity you'll have problems with them grabbing the feed ramp, mag lips, and any other bump or groove along the feed path.

The TC should do well on it's own if it doesn't then the HP is certainly a way to go. WW and 2% should be hard enough to cycle through without deforming, provided you don't run the same round through the gun 10 times, air cool these as you can make them to brittle to expand properly if you quench them in water.

The H&G 68 cuts a nice clean 45 caliber hole and a stout load of unique will get it into the 1000FPS range and it can be pretty impressive at that velocity. Plus they are a bunch faster to make with the right mold!

Something to think about.

[rob45]

For self-defense loads, I NEVER carry reloads of any type. I shoot whatever cast I want at the range, but if that same gun is also my carry gun, the gun gets loaded with the factory defense ammo when I'm done at the range. So while I may develop hot loads to make practice as realistic as possible, I don't worry about the terminal performance of the reloads. About once a month I do shoot some of the defense rounds, but that's mainly to ensure that everything is still right with the gun.

Other than that, +1 on what Dale53 said

[carpetman]

rob45---What is the reason you don't carry reloads in your defense gun? Now Dales 102% loads should do the trick. LOL. He needs his chain pulled after the way he embarassed me shooting. I have a shirt that is 100% cotton and I'm not sure what the rest of it is.

[geargnasher]

For self-defense loads, I NEVER carry reloads of any type. I shoot whatever cast I want at the range, but if that same gun is also my carry gun, the gun gets loaded with the factory defense ammo when I'm done at the range. So while I may develop hot loads to make practice as realistic as possible, I don't worry about the terminal performance of the reloads. About once a month I do shoot some of the defense rounds, but that's mainly to ensure that everything is still right with the gun.

Other than that, +1 on what Dale53 said

Been reading too much Ayoob, have you? Suit yourself.

Paranoia strikes deep.

I'd rather have a good and trusted handload for defense than the latest gee-whizbang hyper-killing wonder that the factories are putting out. Not that they aren't good, they are, but how does THAT look to the DA?

Back on subject, +1 also on what Dale said, a good, hot 200-gr hollow point and soft alloy (antimony under 3%, preferably, plus plenty of tin) will expand in a .45 acp and not much else will. too much antimony and they just fragment, and not in a good way. I've tried 230 Gr JHP at frame-pounding velocities and succeded in doing nothing other than breaking an extractor claw, the bullets just wouldn't open up.

You may be better with the tc as far as reliability, I use exactly the boolit you have for IDPA and plinking, it is a GREAT boolit, and would fill all your defense and practice needs and be much easier to cast. Just use ww+2% tin for the tc, it won't expand but hey, it's a .45, why does it need to????

Gear.

[Dale53]

Actually, Carpetman, I laid a trap for you (and you jumped right in[smilie=1:). After I gave the percentage of WW's and Lead, I mentioned an ADDITIONAL 2% tin. In truth it WOULD give you a total of 102% but was intended (the 2% is 2% of the TOTAL bullet metal).

Regarding embarrassing you, I frankly didn't shoot all that well when you were down and I would NOT intentionally embarrass a good friend like you, so THERE:mrgreen::mrgreen:.

We'll definitely have to do that again (with Ross, too).

Dale53

[NonPCnraRN]

Thanks for the input. I figured that if the bullet was soft enough to flatten then it might hang up somewhere in the feeding process. I may get Veral Smith to make a 230 gr WFN with a larger meplat (say 0.36 inches). I can always use the bullets in my Vaqueros and New Vaqueros if they don't work in the 1911. I would use factory SD loads but in my area you can't find ammo unless you are willing to spend about 80 cents a round for Federal 230 gr ball match. Hence the 2000 Penn truncated cone bullets. I was just wondering if a lower BHN would increase meplat size after impact and still work in the 1911.

[rob45]

Been reading too much Ayoob, have you? Suit yourself.

Paranoia strikes deep.

I'd rather have a good and trusted handload for defense than the latest gee-whizbang hyper-killing wonder that the factories are putting out. Not that they aren't good, they are, but how does THAT look to the DA?


Gear.

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is Ayoob?? Is this another forum or is it a book? I am new here, and I do not stay informed through any type of publication such as magazines, books,etc. I simply get my info the old-fashioned way, I talk to other guys who hang out at the gunshop.
I do not consider it paranoia, but rather something working in my favor should something bad result. I do not constantly look for the "latest and greatest" and many years ago I settled on a carry load because it worked well in my gun. I still have over half of the case that I purchased over 15 yrs ago, so I am absolutely certain that it is not "the latest." After all, the 45auto has somehow been doing it right since what, 1911?

With that said, I guess how something "looks to a DA" depends upon the individual. I can only go based upon what my DA has told me in the past, and that is still his opinion. But not all DAs are the same. So I apologize if my response appeared to have the intent of discouraging self defense handloads, because upon review I can easily see how it looked like that. I should have said that that is the reason why I personally do not go to the trouble of developing one. So my apologies.

[theperfessor]

Massad Ayoob is a gun writer who for many years has taken a stance that shooting reloads in a self-defense situation could cause you trouble in court if you are charged with a crime. Supposedly a DA could use the fact that you developed a "killer load" as additional evidence of your evil nature. There is limited factual evidence that this has ever been an issue in the past.

Part of Ayoob's reasoning is based on having factory ammo to test to determine powder burns and distribution when determining shooting distance. I wonder about this as factories use non-canister powders and change formulations and charge weights to meet pressure and velocity standards, so it seems to me that the factory ammo you got today may have a different powder and charge weight than what the DA may test in the future from a different lot. This is no different than a handloader that uses Unique for loading a batch of ammo and then switches to Bullseye or 231 when their supply of Unique runs out.

Some people follow his advice and only carry factory ammo. Some don't. Some have advised using the same ammo as the local police department. so as to turn the ammo into a "nonissue".

Personally, I carry factory stuff in most of my CCWs, but that is mostly because my family gives me the pricey stuff as Christmas and birthday gifts, not because of any fear of having a problem in court. I shoot enough of it in practice to trust the reliability of it, as I have gotten some really bad factory ammo in the past.

[fredj338]

Rotometals sells 30:1 and 40:1 lead to tin alloys. If I want a 230 gr truncated cone bullet that will deform at regular 45 ACP velocities but also feed reliably in a 1911 which alloy would be best? My goal is a self defense load where the size of the meplat enlarges upon impact and as it penetrates. The bullet in question is the truncated cone design with microband lube grooves.

No matter how soft you cast a 230grFP, it is not going to expand or deform unless it hits bone @ less than 850fps. Go to a 200gr cast 30-1 & driven @ 1000fps & you might get some deformation in tissue, but it will be minimal. The Lee 200grRNFP @ 950fps would be my choice for a solid lead 45acp def. The only reason I woild load my own SD ammo would be a state that did not allow a HP. Then a wide meplate, soft lead bullet would be my choice.

[NonPCnraRN]

So does anybody have any experience with just binary alloys of lead/tin as opposed to wheel weights and mixtures thereof, which may have other unwanted metals such as zinc? I talked to an experienced caster who works in an auto shop and he said ww were getting hard to come by. Remember I am from the Socialist Republic of Kalipornia and cheap sources of lead in all forms will probably be harder to find than in most of the other 49 states. I am basically of the "big meplat, heavy bullet crowd". I figured if I were to start casting I would like to apply revolver logic to semiautos but that may not be possible. Also I was considering the 30:1 or 40:1 from Rotometals as they would be of a known, consistent composition. I was searching for a softer alloy that would allow me to use a readily available mold (Lee) that would function reliably in a 1911 vs a custom mold from Veral Smith in a WFN design which would allow me to use a harder alloy. I have some of the old Speer Flying Ashtray hollowpoint ammo and figured that if the gun functions with that that, then a WFN should work.

[NonPCnraRN]

No matter how soft you cast a 230grFP, it is not going to expand or deform unless it hits bone @ less than 850fps. Go to a 200gr cast 30-1 & driven @ 1000fps & you might get some deformation in tissue, but it will be minimal. The Lee 200grRNFP @ 950fps would be my choice for a solid lead 45acp def. The only reason I woild load my own SD ammo would be a state that did not allow a HP. Then a wide meplate, soft lead bullet would be my choice.

Thanks fredj338: I saw your answer after I posted my last response. It looks like in a 45 ACP the shape the bullet starts out as will be what it ends up as, unless it is a hollowpoint. So now I just need to get a mold that has what I want...a wide meplat and 230 gr for penetration. I don't see overpenetration as a problem as from what I have seen in many LEO shootings a lot of rounds are fired totally missing the target er bad guy. That is not an indictment of LEO's shooting ability as I have never faced a target that was shooting at me. It is to point out that a bullet that penetrates a BG is no more dangerous than one that misses him altogether. Thanks for everyones input.

[geargnasher]

A lot of good info on the Truncated Cone design was put into a thread a few weeks back, a pretty convincing argument was made for the good balance of stopping power vs. penetration with the tc design as well as reliable function.

Nonpcnrarn, I have a little experience with binary alloys in the .45 acp and Lyman Devastator hollow point, 20:1 works like magic, I don't have any samples of recovered boolits handy except this one from a batch of 10 bhn range scrap, it has a little antimony as you can see from the cracks. The 20:1 looks the same but without cracks. The expanded diameter is 7/8" and penetrated 7" of wet yellow pages shot at only about 950 fps.

Gear

[Zbench]

Folks in here might not be aware, but if you are looking for WW +2% tin for general casting, a group buy was just listed in the active buy forum. If you can't get lead like out on the Left Coast, or if you supply has dried up, you might want to consider this professionally prepared alloy.

Pete

[Shiloh]

rob45---What is the reason you don't carry reloads in your defense gun? Now Dales 102% loads should do the trick. LOL. He needs his chain pulled after the way he embarassed me shooting. I have a shirt that is 100% cotton and I'm not sure what the rest of it is.


Some Police Departments strongly discourage reloads being fired in a weapon that is also a duty sidearm.

I have factory ammo in any weapon that may have to be used in a defensive situation. My reloads are very reliable. But I want to be absolutely sure.
I have had the very rare Fail to Fire reload. I have NEVER had a factory round other than .22 RF fail to fire.

Shiloh

[Dale53]

S I have NEVER had a factory round other than .22 RF fail to fire.

Shiloh

Well, I have! I have even found a brand new round that had NO flash hole (30'06) and it was one of the "big three".

It can happen with either factory or reloads. If you shoot enough rounds, about anything can happen. It's not likely but possible.




FWIW
Dale53

[HeavyMetal]

Ray Chapman kept a collection of factory rounds that had failed to fire and cost him a match, some cost him national titles!

He kept these to remind himself and his students that factory rounds are as suseptable to error as reloads. He also stated that his reloads, with incredible QC involved, was all he fired for any reason!

For that reason his reloads never had failures to fire that were ammo related!

[geargnasher]

:hijack:

Npc, sorry for starting the digression, My fault, did we answer your question?


Gear

[NonPCnraRN]

:hijack:

Npc, sorry for starting the digression, My fault, did we answer your question?


Gear

My question was answered as well as could be without testing myself. It is ok about the hijack. I knew as soon as Massad Ayoob's name was mentioned where the topic was headed. But that is OK. I have been guilty of that myself. If I were to use my own loads for defense I would say that is all I had on hand. And considering the ammo situation in this area and nationally (I've had 300 rounds of Winchester White Box on backorder with Cabelas for over 4 months) that would be the truth. I don't know how an attorney can make shooting a BG with what I practice with, into something evil. I mean target ammo is not going to be called into question as hollowpoints are.