can BP be used in a smokeless rifle??

[Marlin Hunter]

Can I use black powder in a non black powder rifle.

The 45-70 and 44-40 were originally black powder (I think)

Could I load a 450 marlin with 70 grains of BP, or a 44 mag with 40 grains of BP and use it in my rifles for those calibers? I just want see and feel what it was like to shoot a BP metallic cartridge without buying a new gun. I assume the powder must be lightly compressed with no air space.

:cbpour:

[sargenv]

I'm not sure of the loads, but you better make sure you clean it up as it will be quite sooty when you fire it in your modern guns.. I loaded 357 magnum with black for a modern gun, and it seemed to work ok, albeit smoky.

[Boz330]

Both of those guns would lend themselves very well to BP. Just use a BP lube on the boolit and fill the case up and go for it. Next thing you know you will be looking for a Roller, Sharps, or Highwall.

Bob

[SharpsShooter]

Both of those guns would lend themselves very well to BP. Just use a BP lube on the boolit and fill the case up and go for it. Next thing you know you will be looking for a Roller, Sharps, or Highwall.

Bob

+1 for that ....Go for it with the right lube and you may wonder what that smokeless stuff is good for. Don't be afraid of the so called terrible clean up chore. It is so simple a cave man could do it.

SS

[cajun shooter]

You can do it very easy but beware when the first round goes off.Real BP has a magic potion that will envelope you and put you in a trance the rest of your life. Very easy loading trick for bp is take a wooden dowel (1/4) in and lay it beside your bullet. Place the bottom even with the bottom of dowel, then make a mark where your seating depth is. Like your crimp groove. Set your measure to drop enough powder so that when you put the dowel in the case the mark is visable just above the rim of case. Seat your bullet. Clean up is easy with the correct products which is anything from plain water up. that you can make your own mind up about. You don't have to rush home and clean them before they turn into a pile of rust. I have went as long as three days after firing with no bad results. Don't do this with the fakes though. For your first trial it's easiest to just buy some real BP lube.

[Springfield]

I shoot BP in my 45 Auto, so if I can do that you can certainly do it in your rifles.

[StarMetal]

[QUOTE=SharpsShooter;667889]+1 for that ....Go for it with the right lube and you may wonder what that smokeless stuff is good for. Don't be afraid of the so called terrible clean up chore. It is so simple a cave man could do it.

SS[/QUOTE

Oh Oh...another Geico commercial. :mrgreen:

Joe

[montana_charlie]

+1 for that ....Go for it with the right lube and you may wonder what that smokeless stuff is good for. Don't be afraid of the so called terrible clean up chore. It is so simple a cave man could do it.Oh Oh...another Geico commercial. :mrgreen:
Those caveman commercials were fun when they started, but now they are more like left-leaning 'tolerance training films'.

So, I just ignore the cavemen, and pay attention to the Gecko...

CM

[dsmjon]

So you're saying one could forgo driving 50+ miles to find IMR3031 and drive the 1.3 miles to Walmart, pick up some Pyrodex? Then one could come home and load one's .45-70 so long as one has BP friendly boolit lube? OH EM GEE. I like thing that make a big bang with lots of smoke, ESPECIALLY at the indoor range... hahahahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Cajun, you're basically saying to fill the case up to the base of the bullet when it's at seated depth? That's what I understand about the dowel rod process...

[wills]

1. Take a case scoop it level full of powder.
2. Weigh the powder. That is your powder charge.
3. Adjust your powder measure to throw that charge.
4. Drop the powder through a brass tube into your primed case.
5. Put your wad over the powder.
6. Use your compression plug to compress the powder far enough so you can seat your boolit to the desired depth (sitting directly on top of the compresed powder).
7. Put in your newspaper wad.
8. Seat your boolit.

[WARD O]

One important thing to remember - DO NOT use a partial case full of black. Always fill the case to the bottom of the bullet - compression is normal and may inhance accuracy. Seat the bullet firmly on the powder charge! Failure to follow this rule could cause damage to your firearm.

Modern cases do not hold the same volumn of powder as the cases from the 1800's so do not expect to easily get 70 grains in behind the bullet in a 45-70 or such.

As others here have said, black powder can be very addicting - beware!!!!

Ward

[Don McDowell]

Modern cases do not hold the same volumn of powder as the cases from the 1800's so do not expect to easily get 70 grains in behind the bullet in a 45-70 or such.



Now there's a bit of internet wisdom that's about as wrong as it can be.:roll:

[Marlin Hunter]

I'm not sure of the loads, but you better make sure you clean it up as it will be quite sooty when you fire it in your modern guns.. I loaded 357 magnum with black for a modern gun, and it seemed to work ok, albeit smoky.

Smoke is what I want. [smilie=w:



Both of those guns would lend themselves very well to BP. Just use a BP lube on the boolit and fill the case up and go for it. Next thing you know you will be looking for a Roller, Sharps, or Highwall.

Bob


I really want a Sharps, but I don't have the money $$$$

[1874Sharps]

Don McDowell,

I think what Ward O was getting at was that the cases of the 1880s were balloon head and not web head (solid head) as they are today. The old cases therefore had a bit more capacity.

Marlin Hunter,

You will get mucho smoke indeed! It took me a while to save up for a Sharps, which I bought about six years ago before the foreign currency exchange rates went crazy and the prices of Pedersoli rifles went up. I had to buy a used one at that. If I had the money I would buy a Shiloh, but I am thankful to the good Lord for what I have. I must say that the Sharps has become my favorite rifle, too. Not only is there a pleasing puff of smoke with every shot, but there is a cool factor and connection to the Old West that is neat as well.

[chuebner]

Of course you can load real powder in any case. Just for grins I've loaded a case full of 3F Swiss in 30-06, 7.62X54R and 7.5X55 Swiss. Get a lot of strange looks when a big cloud of BP smoke comes out of a 1903A3 or K31.

charlie

[Don McDowell]

[QUOTE=1874Sharps;668210]Don McDowell,

I think what Ward O was getting at was that the cases of the 1880s were balloon head and not web head (solid head) as they are today. The old cases therefore had a bit more capacity.

[/QUOTE

Everytime someone starts goin on about how you can't get 70 grs of blackpowder in a modern 45-70 case I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
The list of shooters I know shooting 70 grs or more of 2f sized black with 500+ gr bullets in rp or ww cases is a lenghthy one.

38-40 and 45 colt cases will also take the original 40 grs of powder, but then that mess with the CAS shooters heads.........:o

[cajun shooter]

dsmjon, Yes that's what I meant. It's a fast way to put together a BP load. You put it to where you can see the mark. That means that the mark would be above the rim of the case slightly. When you seat the bullet you will have a small amount of compression. If you are putting together a lr Sharps load then the process would be more in depth. You would do as wills said and use the compression die. To try a Bp load to shoot in the 44mag and the 450 you need to do no more than my posting stated.

[dsmjon]

Is a was required, would a gas checked boolit suffice? Only boolits I have now are 425gr, worth playing with or should I get some lighter ones? I don't imagine that it matters.

I've seen various types of Pyrodex, if one were to try these loads what kind should one buy? I remember yellow and black labeled P-dex.

[1874Sharps]

Don,

You are correct about modern 45-70 cases holding 70 grains of BP. In fact, I load, or have loaded, a full 70 grains with Lyman 500 grain and 405 grain and PP 520 grain boolits with modest compression only. It certainly can be done.

[Marlin Hunter]

Does the boolits for BP cartridges need to be pure lead, or can I use WW?

[wills]

Does the boolits for BP cartridges need to be pure lead, or can I use WW?

30/1 lead/tin is commonly used. Pure lead may not cast well. The principal reason for tin is for proper fillout. Don’t use any more tin than necessary to get good fillout. Wheelweights will work.

[1874Sharps]

A common alloy used for BPCR is 20 to 1, lead to tin. I hear some folks report success with harder alloys like WW, but I have never tried this.

[wills]

Can I use black powder in a non black powder rifle.

The 45-70 and 44-40 were originally black powder (I think)

Could I load a 450 marlin with 70 grains of BP, or a 44 mag with 40 grains of BP and use it in my rifles for those calibers? I just want see and feel what it was like to shoot a BP metallic cartridge without buying a new gun. I assume the powder must be lightly compressed with no air space.

:cbpour:

Goex has .44 magnum, blackpowder loads (and several other calibers), if you just want to make some smoke, and they are on overstock clearance.
http://www.powderinc.com/catalog/order_ammo.htm

[w30wcf]

Does the boolits for BP cartridges need to be pure lead, or can I use WW?

I find that w.w. work very well for black powder. I use SPG lube.

Regarding the proper amount of b.p. to be used, the powder should be compressed. I use .10" to .20" depending on the cartridge.

In addition to the dowel method, one can easily determine the proper amount by using a fired case that the bullet can easily slip into and be removed with the fingers . Add .10" (if using .10" compression) to the standard cartridge o.a.l.

Example: Cartridge o.a.l. 1.58" + .10" = 1.68"

In that example add powder into the case until the 1.68" o.a.l. is achieved with the bullet touching the powder. That will be the correct powder charge for .10" compression.

Have fun!

w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

Does the boolits for BP cartridges need to be pure lead, or can I use WW?

When I cast from wheelweights or 20-1 certified alloy they drop from the mold virtually the same. The only thing seems to be the wheelweight alloy tends to lead a bit more.
My wifes 40-65 gets along pretty well with lyman #2 alloy.

So for the most part you can use about anything you got for alloy, but as in all things shooting related, your guns will tell you what they prefer.

[shotman]

It dont make any difference about boolit weight?

[Lead Fred]

You might add 70 grains of FF powder, that would be 2f for you flatlanders.

Which really sucks, because all I use is FFF :roll:

and NO you do not use pure lead, the harder the better. WW ice water dipped and gas checked can do 1400fps more than safely.

[Boz330]

When I cast from wheelweights or 20-1 certified alloy they drop from the mold virtually the same. The only thing seems to be the wheelweight alloy tends to lead a bit more.
My wifes 40-65 gets along pretty well with lyman #2 alloy.

So for the most part you can use about anything you got for alloy, but as in all things shooting related, your guns will tell you what they prefer.

Some of the best groups I got out of my 40-65 Highwall were with WWs, BUT, if very many rounds were fired, as in a match the leading got to the point of SERIOUSLY affecting accuracy. As Don said your rifle will tell you.
The number one thing that I have discovered about BPCR is that 1 group is an indicator only. You have to be able to repeat those results, which may or may not happen. OH the joys of BPCR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bob

[dsmjon]

What are the differences in store bought BP's? I see yellow and black cans of Pyrodex @ Wallymart, will either work? Are the load measures as critical as smokeless, or is there more 'forgiveness' in the amt of powder in the case?

[SmuvBoGa]

WW will work just fine.

You are going the right way moving to BP - now buy a .69 cal flintlock - you can FEEL the history when you shoot it :razz: all this wimpy cartridge stuff :veryconfu black powder, lead & steel is all you need.[smilie=s:

[wills]

What are the differences in store bought BP's? I see yellow and black cans of Pyrodex @ Wallymart, will either work? Are the load measures as critical as smokeless, or is there more 'forgiveness' in the amt of powder in the case?

Do you want to shoot Black Powder, or do you want to shoot Black Powder Substitutes? If you are planning to shoot substitutes, why even bother?

[dsmjon]

Wills, I'm just looking to try new things without worry of rash or burning while I pee. Are you saying Pyrodex is not BP? I don't know these things, which is why I'm asking.

[Don McDowell]

dsmjon. Pyrodex is the first of the so called black powder substitutes. It is designed to be used on a volume basis. ie if you set a powder measure to throw a 70 gr bp charge use the same setting with pyrodex to achieve the same ballistics altho the pyrodex charge in acutaul grains weight will be about 15 grs less than the bp. FYI this is where all the simple folks got confused about throwing bp charges by volume, instead of grains.
But back to your question, one of those cans of pyrodex is the "select" and other is planeolplaneol. But you still need to load either one with a good bit of compression of the powder charge with the bullet/wad remaining in firm contact with the powder.
Loading pyrodex in place of bp is folly as pyrodex is just as corrosive if not more so than black so the gun and cases must be cleaned and oiled after firing,thereby not saving any of the so called "hassle" of shooting black.
Sooooo in general if you're going to piddle around with the fakey stuff,in place of black, might just as well shoot smokeless and be done with it.

[Dale53]

Marlin Hunter;
I shot BPCR Silhouette for fifteen years. My alloy was 30/1 lead/tin. If I wanted to use WW's, I would dilute them 50% with pure lead and add 2% tin for good fill out. The same alloy can be used in your revolver.

Using the revolver, I would drop a powder charge of my chosen brand so that it is 1/16" higher than the base of the seated bullet. In other words, let the bullet slightly compress the powder charge. If you try to compress with more than 1/16" compression with the soft bullet you will damage the bullet. 1/16" is good. Using the .45 Colt, a 250 gr Lyman 452664 bullet I got 1½"-2" groups at 25 yards. I could shoot 75 rounds with my revolver before the cylinder started binding (then it required cleaning). Each revolver is a law unto itself in this regard. Use STP or Mobile Red Synthetic Grease on the cylinder pin to minimize the binding problem. You can get either at your local auto parts store.

Black Powder compression with your rifle is more important to accuracy than most seem to understand. After I have determined the bullet seating depth, I load ten cartridges with the powder column just touching the bullet base when seated. I load ten more with two grains more powder. I continue this little exercise until I am ready to go to the range with these several groups of loads. I test shoot at 100 yards until I am satisfied then shoot up to 500 yards to verify. I use a compression die for consistent compression. I consider this important. I was not able to determine any difference in dropping the powder from a measure or using a long drop tube (my test laboratory was my rifle with a 20 power scope on it for tests). So, I just drop from the measure, use a compression die and proceed. I use a turret press, and can load a match load in about twenty seconds. I shot a LOT and this was of some importance to me.

The normal progression is to have rather wide groups with no compression. The groups get smaller as the compression increases until a point is reached that the groups start to open again. Then go up or down one grain until you have your load. Carefully record this and then from then until you change the powder lot, you don't have to do that again.

Goex may take as much as .350" compression for best accuracy. Swiss often does it's best at only .085" compression.

For general shooting, I recommend 2F in both the rifle and the revolver.

The revolver was a real revelation to me. I realized nearly 1000 fps with Swiss 3f in my .45 Colt with the 250 gr bullet. That is real power (and recoil) and it was available to the Calvary in the late 1800's. It would shoot through a horse at 100 yards.

I suggest you start out with SPG lube. It is commercially available and is kind of the "Gold Standard". I used Emmert's Home Mix (50% pure natural beeswax, 40% Crisco, and 10% Canola oil by melted volume). Use a double boiler to avoid overheating the lube (it will ruin it). I get a large Pyrex cup (it has graduations on the cup) sitting in a sauce pan for my "double boiler". I pan lube the large bullets. You can do the same with the revolver bullets. I use several large cake pans often available at a thrift store for little money.

Go slow and be careful. Black powder has much to commend it to the serious shooter.

Dale53

[dsmjon]

Don, thank you for the breakdown. I had always thought Pdex was BP. Back to lurk mode, I'd still like to make some smokey loads for the range one day.

[wills]

Sooooo in general if you're going to piddle around with the fakey stuff,in place of black, might just as well shoot smokeless and be done with it.

Which is what i meant to say.

[dsmjon]

Sorry for the confusion on my part gents, BP is a curiosity to me. Kinda like the old analogy about one's GF's sister... just trying to decide if the effort is worth satisfying the curiosity.

[Don McDowell]

It is, and won't get you in near as much deep doodo as your gf's sister........

[wills]

See if you can find a BPCRS match near you. Go and watch. They are real friendly folks. Probably one of em would let you fire a few rounds, and if you like it, and let it be known you are interested you can probably pick up a rifle, without breaking the bank.

[James Gibson]

I don't think a 450 Marlin or 44mag are good candidates for black powder unless you like to take your guns apart and clean out the crud. The reason most BP coyboy shooter uses 38-40 and 44-40 is the fact that the cases are thin and seal the low pressure BP loads and don't let the gas go around the case and come back into the action.

[John Boy]

The list of shooters I know shooting 70 grs or more of 2f sized black with 500+ gr bullets in rp or ww cases is a lenghthy one.
The list can also be started with 75grs in a 45-70 case using a 500+gr bullet, me included! Of course, seating the bullet out gives the extra case volume and the powder column is not like a brick