Brass Importance to Cast Bullets?

[Bass Ackward]

I tried to get this going awhile back and the discussion came down to which brand splits first. Well .... I find the subject to be a little deeper than that. Not so much with rifles depending on what and how you shoot them, but clearly with handguns there is a BIG difference on ignition. The question is how to make it scientific enough that you guys will buy the results? The problem is that there are too many variables and I can't. But I can show you some pretty interesting things (to me) that you probably already know and just don't consider anymore. At least I didn't.

I have two kinds of brass on hand for my 44 Mag. Winchester that I use for jacketed. And Hornady that I use for cast. I took and weighed 6 of each. Not trying to get both brands to weight the same, just that all weigh the same within the same brand. All were trimmed to the same length and prepped the same to the point of being anal about it. Everything was kept the same so apples could be compared to apples. Still .... you can't compare one brand of brass to another because it depends on too many variables. I used two powders, Herco and 2400. In order to keep this reasonably short, I will leave out details of the loads except for what I want to point out.

Using 2400 and playing with crimp from light to heavy there was a 6% increase in bullet velocity using Hornady cases. Using the same crimp with 2400 and Winchester brass there was a 4% increase. (with this bullet design) When I went to Herco there was a 12% difference in velocity using Hornady cases and 7% using Winchester. But this was velocity. What about powder charge? So I went to Quickload and said, what if I was using a light crimp and didn't want to change the crimp because I was too lazy. In order to produce that same increase in velocity, I would need a 24% increase in powder charge using HERCO to get this velocity increase! 24%! That's "money" to cheap shooters. And it can explain why people think Quickload is less accurate with slower powders requiring much more powder to produce the same velocity.

This bullet had a very long and deep crimp groove so that a crimp was really effective. So I changed bullet designs to one with a small crimp. Because these bullets have such a small crimp, I have had to use harder bullets as this was what I had molded up. The first ones were 14 BHN. The second design were 22 BHN. Here I saw a flip flop. Although the percentages were a lot less at 1% vs 3% between the two brands of brass, the Winchester brass NOW gave the biggest increase! Remember, this is the same 6 cases of each brand. And I will bet that you can create conditions where your results may be the exact opposite of mine.

So, I would say that your choice of brass can cause you to formulate many cast bullet opinions.

1. It dang sure is going to affect bullet design. Did one bullet design really outshot another? Was it really bullet shape? Or your conditions that you set up with the way you reload or the velocity range you like to operate in. That can explain why one guy shoots one design and makes it work while another says crap. If the design is still being sold, it has to be working for someone.

2. I can see where it "could" affect your opinion on bullet hardness preferences because you get better ignition from brand "A" instead of "B". Someone likes soft bullets and another wants hard.

3. Certainly could affect primer choice.

4. Your opinion of crimp importance.

5. Your selection of powder speed.

6. Case neck tension.

And in the end, because of all of these factors, maybe .... just maybe, what "YOU" believe to be the most "important" factor in loading / shooting cast bullets. There is no pattern that can cause me to say I prefer one brand of brass over another now. Prior to this test I was dead sure my Hornady brass was the chit. Even though this isn't very "scientific" to support a "correct" conclusion, it has opened my eyes to settling in to a "reloading pattern" just because this worked last time OR this is just a handgun and not required to be as accurate as a rifle. And I learned this all years before .... except about brass. I just needed to be reminded.

Clearly, the biggest difference comes from less than full power .... (pressure) loads where reloading technique becomes more critical to ignition. So maybe this was a waste of time for some of you. I hope it makes you think. And you too 44man. This is all your fault! :grin:

[Dale53]

Bass Ackward;
This kind of goes back to what I stated earlier, "The older I get the more I realize that I don't know very much at all.":mrgreen:

Of course, long time experience will give us a lot of knowledge but no one person can have all of the necessary experience. That is why I BELIEVE in forums such as this. We can freely share knowledge and help ALL of us to improve.

My standard for revolvers is under an inch at 25 yards from a Ransom Rest (on a good day, a good shooter can do nearly as well from sand bags, particularly with a scope or dot sight). Maybe if we continue working and helping each other we can bring that "standard" to 1/2" at 25 yards. Won't help us much for offhand work (where REAL shooting lives) but it will be neat...

Dale53

[buck1]

Bass you have tested with things near and deer to my heart!
95% of my shooting in the past 25 years or so has has been with the 44 mag.
I was a little slow to take up cast boolits , but when I did I didnt look back!
I have ran tests of my own with the 44, on several things that dont add up to others tests here.

Such as:
I can out shoot any standard jacketed bullet with a cast Saeco swc.
I can out shoot a HP boolit with a solid nose.
I get better groups with lg pistol mag primers than LG pistol.
I have used new Win brass VS.old mixed headstamps with no change in group size with the one exception "PMC" raises pressure some.

BUT.......
I dont take tests from here lightly.
If 44 man says he gets better groups from non mag primers, I belive him!
and now your brass test, again I belive your results.
I think you have hit on it with ;theres so many things that can effect the results of a test, and they must explane our results.
Now I use WC820 for $$ reasons, But I have shot soooo much 2400 in my life I could have bought the company. Better powders may have been had but I liked the 2400 too much to make a change for long.
Sometimes the 2400 would seem to be a bit too erattic, and others it seemed fine.
I always use a heavy roll crimp, and the boolits when pulled from a noncrimped case SEEMED to have a good strong even pull from case to case. Light and heavy ones were discarded.
But the brass may have been still to blame!
Thanks thats something for me to RETHINK on. Good post......Buck :)

[44man]

I have used Midway, Remington and several other brands of brass with no change in accuracy or velocity.
You are missing the point! The crimp has very little control over the burn rate of any powder. All you want is just enough crimp to keep a boolit from moving under recoil.
I don't know how many times I have posted that it is case tension on the boolit that has the most effect. Softer brass has less tension and will reduce velocity and will take a harder crimp to try and even things out. How does anyone determine this? Boolit hardness combined with different hardness of brass also will make you go nuts. A soft boolit with hard brass that sizes down the boolit when seating can change the whole thing. A hard boolit and very soft brass is just as bad. A hard boolit and hard brass will be very consistant. A hard boolit and softer brass that is not expanded too much is also good.
The whole secret is not to expand the brass too much so the boolit goes in the case easy. Some die sets just will not give the accuracy you are looking for. None of you have really given the dies as much consideration as you should. THEY ARE NOT ALL THE SAME!
You should be able to see the grease grooves on the brass of a loaded round! A soft boolit will almost never give the required accuracy because the brass will size it and if the brass is expanded so large that the soft boolit goes in easy the powder will not burn correctly unless it is very fast. This is the worst condition for a slow powder!
Fit the boolit to the throats, make them hard, don't over expand the brass and don't use a primer that blows the boolit out of the case in the .44 and .45. Very hard boolit pull combined with a heavy boolit might take the mag primer, but I have never found it true. Too many of you depend on 25 yd's or less for groups. Shoot your gun at 50 and 100 yd's and tell us how good your groups are.
For the 2400 powder being erratic, the same thing holds true as it is a fairly slow powder. Case tension is the magic word.

[45 2.1]

So far everyone has hit around some very important things. Accuracy depends a lot of the time on things which aren't discussed here. Now you have hit on one of the main factors that can give superlitive accuracy, ie state of neck anneal or should I say lack of anneal. This should be a very good subject if it stays on track.

[felix]

Do I see a sticky here? These three posts are excellent and should be kept around for newbees. Either here or on castpics. ... felix

[Bucks Owin]

Personally, I spend much more time in the preparation of my brass than I do any other aspect of reloading, both rifle and handgun....

Goes without saying that it should be sorted as to headstamp. At that point and at ALL points thereafter, I eyeball the cases for any faults. There's no law saying you must only inspect them once! :-D

Decapping comes next and "sometimes" resizing, depending on the die set. Occasionally, I'll remove the expander altogether! (More on resizing later)

Since I don't own a tumbler at present, cases now get a "bath" in whatever recipe I happen to be using. Lacquer thinner, stoddard solvent, vinegar/water/dishsoap all work for my purposes. After sufficient soaking, they are blown clean and dry with compressed air, paying special attention to the primer pockets. I want them CLEAN. If any residue persists, it is removed and a #40 drill is spun in the flash hole for uniformity. I do this the FIRST time the case is reloaded and thereafter about every other time.

Clean cases are now resized in steel size dies, not carbide*. I use a paper towel slightly moistened with Husqvarna chain oil, a HD high film strength oil that works as good in a die as it does in a chainsaw. (And cost $5 per gallon...) This lubes the case for sizing and is wiped off with a dry cloth when loaded rounds are completed. (Yet keeps any "fingerprints" or discoloring of the brass from occuring...)

Handgun cases are resized for about 3/4 of their length. (Or whatever amount ensures reliable chambering) I see no point in making the case any more undersize than it has to be and repeated resizing of the area directly in front of the rim removes the case's tendency to "center itself" in the chamber as well as work hardens that area unnecessarily. Some handgun chambers may be too tight to use this technique, but that's a good thing! The tighter chamber, the better IMO....

(My rifle cases are either partially FL resized or neck sized only BTW)

At this point cases are trimmed to uniform length and then slightly chamfered on the same Forster tool by using an oversize reamer. Future plans call for a Forster "primer pocket uniformer" tool for consistent pocket depth.

Case mouth flaring is kept to a bare minimum. ONLY enough to let the boolit being used start easily. Usually the chamfer I give the case on my case trimmer suffices....

Cases are now primed with a Lee handheld tool for best "feel" of the primer bottoming in it's pocket.

That's a lot of time spent "fussin" over handgun cases I know, but I feel it pays off in accuracy for BR or Silhouette shooters. Guys who burn up hundreds of rounds every weekend obviously aren't going to go to these lengths...

Besides, I enjoy time spent at the bench... :-D

Dennis

BTW, I agree that it's impossible to "crimp your way" to greater neck tension. A smaller expander or larger bullet is the way IMO. I also like to see the cylinder throats sized to a "slip fit" on the bullet. They shouldn't be so tight as to "resize" the bullet undersize to the point that it goes "rattling down the bore"....

*Carbide dies:

I feel most cases should have a slight taper and this is only possible with a steel die. With carbide dies, the entire length of the case is sized to the same size as the carbide ring.

Since I don't process thousands of rounds at a sitting, I use neither progressive tools nor carbide dies....

[44man]

Bucks, you are right about sizing revolver brass full length with a carbide or titanium nitride die. The case should only be sized to just below the depth the boolit is seated to. Any brass that has expanded too much to chamber is better served full lengthed with a steel die. The Hornady die will do a good job though. It only has to be done once in a while if the case gets too large.
If you really want to have fun, anneal your revolver brass. Post here so we can all have a good laugh.

[buck1]

""Using 2400 and playing with crimp from light to heavy there was a 6% increase in bullet velocity using Hornady cases. Using the same crimp with 2400 and Winchester brass there was a 4% increase. (with this bullet design) When I went to Herco there was a 12% difference in velocity using Hornady cases and 7% using Winchester. But this was velocity. What about powder charge? So I went to Quickload and said, what if I was using a light crimp and didn't want to change the crimp because I was too lazy. In order to produce that same increase in velocity, I would need a 24% increase in powder charge using HERCO to get this velocity increase! 24%! ""


"If you really want to have fun, anneal your revolver brass"


It seems unless lino bullets are used in a slightly under sized case, The brass would have to be annealed?
The 2 diff lots of bass's brass having diff %s of increase, could be due to the hardness of the brass , changing the pull?? But even so the crimp alone seems to have a lot of efect on the vel..,.....Just trying to grasp the hole thing.........Buck

[Bass Ackward]

OK. I just finished another test. My Lyman dies really size down a case. The expander measures only .409. That is about as small as it gets. I just bell ever so slightly to prevent the check from hanging up on the lip. When the bullet is in the case, you can very plainly see the grease grooves. Always! No matter what brand of brass. The load was 7.8 grains of Herco with a 275 grain GC bullet.

Quickload projection: 930 fps. (Hornady Brass)

1. No crimp: 912 fps with an ES of 37 fps.

2. Light crimp: 952 FPS with an ES of 41 fps. Crimp just folded over the groove.

3. Heavy Crimp: 1113 fps with an ES of 18. Case is completely folded into the ful amount of crimp groove space in a fashion allowing the crimp to perform the final seating distance of the bullet. This is to keep the crimp in contact with the bullet. For Quickload to predict this velocity, it requires a charge of 9.7 grains. Almost 2 full grains more.

So from this I would say that a strong crimp (with the right brass!) still makes a difference when a bullet has to jump before making contact. A strong crimp needs to be defined. This is a .055 long crimp groove. In rifles, I see less than a 1% difference when bullets are seated to lightly engrave with no crimp and a heavy crimp as described. But if I jump them there, then crimp comes back into play too. Especially at lower pressures where ignition again becomes a factor.

Note: after measuring my two brands of brass, the Hornady brass is heavier. I suspect that the "fat" brass has a tougher time folding into a small (short) crimp than the Winchester. I suspect that this is causing the brass to lose case neck tension and why the Winchester brass threw more pressure / velocity than the Hornady with the small crimp groove bullet. Just my guess.

[fecmech]

David R 's plight with his K-38 got me to playing around with mine the past week or so and group sizes etc. One thing I learned a long time ago with a machine rest was I could not get decent 50 yd accuracy with mixed brass, not in a .38spl. I have 2 lots of brass about 2000 each. One is Winchester commercial wadcutter brass (from a Natl Guard match we hosted) and some Winchester military ball brass from 1974. The mil brass is heavier and thicker, I think it is just shortened mag brass.
With rn bullets and Bullseye powder my gun will average 1 3/4" 50 yd 6 shot groups with the commercial brass and just slightly worse( right at 2" ) with the mil brass. Last week I fired a couple groups with some mixed brass a fellow had given me using RP,S&W, WW and Norma brass. They were put thru my progressive press the same as my other cases so nothing changed but the cases. One group was 4" and the other 3 1/2". I no longer have the machine rest but groups are shot off bags with a dotsight. Mixed brass has a definite effect on group size IMO. Nick

[Maven]

Does anyone else bother to ream the inside of once-fired cases for uniformity? I find Win. brass is a likely candidate for this as are some lots of Star/Midway. E.g., I did this on a once-fired lot of Star brass in .44mag., ostensibly to remove the crimp, but the reamer (Forster) removed material for its entire length (or depth, if you prefer) on many of the cases. Incidentally, the second firing gave very accurate and consistent performance.

[Bucks Owin]

Does anyone else bother to ream the inside of once-fired cases for uniformity? I find Win. brass is a likely candidate for this as are some lots of Star/Midway. E.g., I did this on a once-fired lot of Star brass in .44mag., ostensibly to remove the crimp, but the reamer (Forster) removed material for its entire length (or depth, if you prefer) on many of the cases. Incidentally, the second firing gave very accurate and consistent performance.

I inside ream the necks of my .243 varmint loads made from LC .308 Match scroungings....

Haven't tried it with handgun brass, although I do polish out any grunge I find with 4/0 steel wool as part of my case prep....(if my case cleaning "brew" doesn't get it...)

Dennis

[44man]

Brass hardness and thickness does mean a lot and how easy the crimp unfolds is a large part of the velocity changes. Other then internal case capacity, this is the most important reason not to mix brass. I see most of you test with very fast powders and those will change much faster with changes in crimp.
When using very slow powders, the crimp will have less effect and case tension will have much more. A good balance has to be found. Trying to correct a loose boolit by crimping harder is just no good for accuracy even if velocity is higher.
Since accuracy was the question, a good case tension is very important, but even more important is having even case tension from case to case and you can't get that with mixed brass or by mixing some brass that has been fired 10 times with new brass. I am guilty of this by using the same cases out of a box to do a lot of shooting without using some other cases at all. Just too hard to keep track of.
A firm, even crimp is the next important item. This must also be the same, case to case which means cases have to be the same length and the same hardness which means no mixing makes of brass or new and old brass.
If you mess with different crimps as much as I have you will even find a vast difference between a taper, roll and profile crimp as far as velocity and accuracy. However the best accuracy was always reached with even, tight case tension and even crimps. As long as case tension was the same, it didn't seem to matter if all crimps were light, medium or heavy and as long as they were the same the groups were good. Mixing crimps is as bad as mixing brass.
Overall, I have to say that using a tighter crimp, even though it increases velocity, will not correct poor case tension and poor accuracy. There are just too many other factors more important then the crimp.

[Bass Ackward]

Mixing crimps is as bad as mixing brass.
Overall, I have to say that using a tighter crimp, even though it increases velocity, will not correct poor case tension and poor accuracy. There are just too many other factors more important then the crimp.


44man,

I see that you moved clear passed the brass portion of the argument. That's OK. Personally, I was amazed myself. And you are correct that crimp has less effect the slower the powder is. But the effect is really pressure related. Go above a certain pressure for each bullet design and you lose (minimize) the crimp effect. That should be known as the "optimum burn level" to produce the "powder speed".

So is losing the effect desireable in the first place? Ignition is ignition. Would an even longer, stronger crimp help with the slow burners? You jumped off of brass to crimp. Now I am jumping off to bullet design. Look at your 44 bullets. The one is a WFN and one something else. You know, the ones where one shoots better than another one, and see if they both have the same crimp groove dimensions. I would like to know.

Next I am going to step on your turf. Same tests. H110, 296 and just see the actual difference for my own education. I may even try to get ahold of another form of brass. I will admit I am more interested in the slow powders for the reason of being gentle to a PB bullet than running flat out. So I will have to force myself to try here. :grin: Remember, accuracy was never mentioned here. Only brasses role in the equasion. But the really good groups that I shot were with the heaviest crimp so far. Just for the record.

[44man]

Bass, I use a crimp that is short of case damage. In other words, it is firm but not to the point of the factory .454 loads with a full profile that forms 1/32" into the crimp groove. I shoot heavy loads and don't want the boolit to move.
I have made dozens of tests with crimp and as long as the case tension was proper, a looser crimp did not degrade accuracy. However when case tension was too loose, the crimp had a major effect with the tight crimps being more accurate. Since each boolit has a different crimp groove, this can be a large problem and cause a guy to reject a boolit as not being any good because it can't be crimped tight enough. Soft brass can open too fast and cause the same problem. Mixing hard and soft brass can make nice shotgun patterns.
I make my own moulds and never get the crimp grooves the same and all of my factory boolit moulds are different as far as the groove. All of them will shoot 1" or less at 50 yd's from my .44. I will have a different point of impact for some boolits but accuracy is just fine.
As far as H110 and 296, it is the same powder but is packaged for each company at a slightly different burn rate near center. One is just a tad slower then the other and both should be tested in a gun. I have found that the SBH and SRH prefers 296 and the RH loves H110. No, I can't tell you why but the RH would spray 296 loads and group tight with H110 and my SBH did the opposite. All of my fellow IHMSA shooters found the same thing. The strange thing about it was when we adjusted the charge for equal velocities with both powders, the accuracy results were the same, each gun prefering one powder over the other. It doesn't make sense to me at all. There might be a magic spot for each powder, but I haven't found it. Every gun is different, so take what I found with a grain of salt. The powders might react different in different brass too for all I know.

[44man]

Bass, 5 shots at 100 yd's, .44 mag, home made mould, 330 gr's and it has a shallow crimp groove. The low shot was my fault, I put the butt too tight into the sandbag. 4 are in 1-1/4"

[44man]

Super Redhawk at 200 yd's.

[Bucks Owin]

Actually, one can LOOSEN neck tension by being too heavy handed with roll crimping IMO. When you squash down on the case mouth like King Kong, you can buckle the case walls AWAY from the bullet. There's no where else for the brass to go....

For a demonstration, try an overly ham fisted crimp and see if the bullet doesn't actually "rock" in the case mouth.......


I'm also of the opinion that heavy roll crimps can hurt accuracy by damaging the bullet base.
FWIW, I vote for a smaller expander every time if tight bullet pull is the goal....

Dennis

44man, that's some fine accuracy! I wish I could scope my Flattop without drilling holes in it.....(Guess the only cure is a NM Blackhawk "carbine" ;-) )

[44man]

Go to molds, maintenance and design and my post undersize cherry II to see the 10 shot 50 yd group I shot today with my BFR 45-70 revolver.

[Nrut]

Roll,Taper,or Profile?......when I bought my Casull I called Redding and asked them what was the best crimp die to use for it....they said Profile so thats what I use.....also while I understand the difference between the Roll and Taper crimps I have not a clue as to what the difference is between the Profile and Taper crimp....can someone please explain the difference?.....thanks
Oh yes while my groups are great horizontally (usually less than 1 1/2" in colt cyl. @50 meters with scope) they are how shall we say vertically challenged sometimes going over 4"....

[44man]

The vertical dispersion depends on how you bench you gun. I take it you are shooting a revolver. The bag under the butt has to have the same firmness from shot to shot or recoil jams the butt into the bag a different amount shot to shot and lets the barrel rise to different positions shot to shot. I never eliminate it entirely and have come to accept a little vertical dispersion. When I shoot Creedmore, the problem goes away but I can't hold as steady. I have tried just resting my wrists and I find I can't hold as steady as I do from Creedmore. The jiggles will defeat the testing.
Changing hand tension or position on the grip shot to shot also causes it.
It is very, very hard to sandbag a hard recoiling revolver.

[Bucks Owin]

It is very, very hard to sandbag a hard recoiling revolver.


You're not kidding.
( Especially if it wears a Ruger XR3 gripframe! :-) )

FWIW,

Dennis