358009, Saeco 352, and NEI #169 patched in Whelen

[yondering]

Nrut brought up some questions about paper patching the 358009 boolit, in another thread, so I did a little investigating and figgered I'd post the results in a new thread.

The question related to seating depth with a paper patched 358009, since that boolit has a long straight nose surface at (or near) bore diameter, which would be at groove diameter after patching and sizing. I've been shooting the 245gr Saeco 352 paper patched in my 35 Whelen with good results, and wondered how seating depth would compare.

I happen to have a few 358009 boolits someone sent me on another forum long ago, along with some NEI .358-300-GC-DD boolits. I patched one of each, and seated them in my Whelen brass to just touch the rifling in my gun, which is a Remington 700 with typical remington long throat, and who knows how many rounds down the bore.

The picture below shows the results. From left to right, 300gr NEI, 280gr 358009, and 245gr Saeco both patched and lubed examples.
http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/molds/IMG_2583.jpg

Surprisingly, the 358009 should work just fine paper patched, in my gun. Seating depth is a little deeper than the other two, but essentially just the gas check area is below the neck/shoulder junction of the case. I thought it would end up deeper than that. All three rounds shown feed like melted butter.

As a disclaimer, I haven't fired either the NEI or the 358009 boolit paper patched from my gun. I have fired both with gas checks and lube, but only a few. I'm getting good results with the Saeco boolit, using RL-15 for 2650 fps, or Unique for about 1100 fps.

I really like the heavy 300gr NEI boolit; if it shoots well I'll probably have to buy a mold for it, either through NEI, or have Mountain Molds make me one. If it won't stabilize in my gun, there is a 282gr version available.

[jimgun]

please keep us informed on this. I have to agree, that nei boolit sure is pretty. would like to try some in my ackley whelen also. might be the start of a GB. jim

[AseVeli]

Just out of Curiosity, Does anyone sell bullets that were cast from the 300gr NEI mold?

Thanks

AV

[yondering]

Just out of Curiosity, Does anyone sell bullets that were cast from the 300gr NEI mold?

Thanks

AV

I don't know, but if someone on this board has that mold or the 282gr version, I'd sure like to do some boolit swapping with them.

[Nrut]

Good post yondering..
It'll be interesting to see if your 1:16 twist will stabilize the NEI #169..
An older Barnes Manual shows that you can push a 300 gr. Jacketed bullet at 2494 FPS out of a 26" barrel..:holysheep
I would think that you could endo a Buffalo with that kind of performance...

That's more excitement than I need...:shock:

[yondering]

I would think that you could endo a Buffalo with that kind of proformance...

That's more excitement than I need...:shock:

Hehe, that does sound like quite a load. I've found that because of the reduced friction, it's not difficult to exceed jacketed velocity with a paper patched boolit, so it will be interesting to see what this NEI boolit can do.

One downside of paper patching though, for full power loads anyway, is that it doesn't work well with my muzzle brake. I have a very effective brake on my 700, that really cuts down the recoil so hot loads feel like a 243 or less. However, I think my paper patches start to come off the boolit early enough to sometimes hang up in the brake. I don't think there's any safety issue, but it does seem to ruin accuracy. Removing the brake makes it shoot pretty good, although with more recoil. Still, with a good stock design, even hot Whelen loads aren't hard to handle. My 12 gauge slug loads are much more punishing.

[Nrut]

One downside of paper patching though, for full power loads anyway, is that it doesn't work well with my muzzle brake. I have a very effective brake on my 700, that really cuts down the recoil so hot loads feel like a 243 or less. However, I think my paper patches start to come off the boolit early enough to sometimes hang up in the brake. I don't think there's any safety issue, but it does seem to ruin accuracy.

A PP boolit friendly muzzle brake...Sounds like a project for 303 MAN (guy)....That'll kept him busy for a few days...:mrgreen:

I do like the idea of a .35 Whelen with the recoil of a .243 though..

[yondering]

Update:
I fired 3 of the 300gr NEI paper patched boolits today, with a light load of 9.5gr Unique for 990 fps. As expected, my slow twisth Rem 700 did not stabilize these boolits. Accuracy wasn't terrible (~1/2" at 25 yards) but one of the 3 shots keyholed; I expect at longer distances all 3 would have gone south.

Planning to try some full power loads with these soon. I only have 7 left though, not really enough to do any real experimenting with, beyond checking for stability. I plan to try 2 loads of 3 rounds each, and push them as fast as I feel safe with, to see if they stabilize.

Nrut; I've got some ideas for a PP friendly muzzle brake. I don't think it will be nearly as effective as what I have now, but it will do something anyway. My current brake has lots of little holes in it, with a sharp tooth on the forward inside edge of each hole. Looking inside the brake, it looks like a really mean wood rasp. The teeth really grab the paper, I had to pick little bits of paper out of the brake last time I tried that. I plan to make another of the same dimensions, but with a smooth inner bore, and 1/8" holes drilled into it all around. Hopefully that won't grab at the paper as much.

[bearcove]

Teeth? Maybe it could just be cleaned up with a reamer.

[yondering]

Teeth? Maybe it could just be cleaned up with a reamer.

No way, this is an awesome muzzle brake, I'm not ruining it just to use paper patches. Easy enough to make another that is smooth on the inside, but this one, I think must have been made on an EDM machine. I can't figure any other way to do it. I'll post some pictures if anyone's interested.

[leftiye]

I'd bet my mother's virginity that them teeth ain't sposed ta be there, and that reaming or sanding them out won't affect the brake's effectiveness. Have you thought that they might be "eating" your jacketed loads too? Yeah, pictures are good!

[bearcove]

Yeah on that. What type of brake is it? All the methods for making or machining brakes that I know are make the holes then ream.

But then I don't know much.8-)

[yondering]

Well, you guys would both lose that bet. Guess you've never seen a brake like this then? I don't know who made it; sure would like somebody to identify it for me though. It's at least 10 years old, it was on my Whelen when I bought it.

In the pictures below, it's hard to clearly see the whole inside of the brake, but you can see the little teeth around each of the small holes. The holes in this brake are at about a 5-10 degree angle. The brake is in two sections, the large holes at the rear have no teeth, and a baffle separates them from the front chamber that has all the teeth. The ID of the teeth is slightly larger than the exit hole. Like I said, pretty sure it had to be an EDM job. I'd be tempted to buy another if I knew who made it. It's an excellent brake.

The PP friendly version will be simpler, with a straight-through bore about .370-.400", and holes drilled in perpendicular, about 1/8" diameter.

Never mind the surface finish, it's bake-on teflon/moly coating; looks kind of funny in close-up pictures.

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/molds/IMG_2664.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/molds/IMG_2665.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/molds/IMG_2667.jpg

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c26/zthang43/molds/IMG_2670.jpg

[leftiye]

Looks like it was made by a file company. Can't imagine any advantage to the teeth that a smaller diameter wouldn't equal for effectiveness. Actually, that looks like the holes were punched. Can't make teeth with an edm as far as I can see.

[bearcove]

Punched was my first thought. And after seeing it I still guess the same. Man that has a lot of holes.

[yondering]

I thought punched at first too, but it's not. The "teeth" were machined after the holes were drilled. They are way too uniform and even to be punched, plus, the length of each tooth is longer than the diameter of the hole it's next to.
However it was made, those teeth were intentional, and well executed, as they required some precision machining. It definitely is a lot of little holes!