Help with 38 Spl.

[rick983]

I am reloading 148 gr HBWC in my 38 Special and noticed that the resizing die reduces the diameter considerably. Even after I use the neck expander die, this fit between bullet and case seems too tight. I'm concerned that I might be deforming the soft lead bullets while seating them. Is it possible to forgo the sizing operation and seat the bullets in a fired case. I would think that the minimal recoil of the 38 wouldn't cause the bullets to shift in the loaded rounds. Any thoughts would be appreciated. :?:

[bedwards]

What dies are you using? My Lee's will size larger if you screw them in further. The wadcutters I have are about as soft as it gets.

BE

[Treeman]

Tight sizing is a blessing-ballistic uniformity is enhanced by heavy bullet pull. If your dies are adjusted so that you can seat bullets without shaving lead you should be golden.

[Char-Gar]

HBWC bullets are special need children. Due to the hollow base they are longer per weight than plain base wadcutters. That means the expanding plug doesn't reach far enough to expand the entire length of the bullet and the HB skirt gets crushed when seated. This plays hob with accuracy.

I know nothing about Lee, but RCBS sells a special long expanding plug for just this purpose. It is not cataloged, but they do have them for sale. They also expand to .3585 so as not to deform the hollow skirt. When it comes to HBWC bullets in the 38, tighter most certainly IS NOT better. It would take a call or email to RCBS to get one.

Also know that regular 38 Special brass has a a long taper to the inside web of the case and the long expander might bulge the case to the point it gives troubles seating in the sixgun charge holes.

The answer is match brass. This is the brass factory 38 Specials HBWCs come in. The web is much shorter and allows the case to be expanded and bullet seated without contacting the web. I don't believe they sell these things. You have to pick them up from folks who bought factory wadcutter match ammo. They are easy to spot as they have a double cannulure on the case.

I laid in a stash of them a couple of years ago and they are not for sale. Unless you use a special long seater and match cases, you are better off with solid base wadcutters.

All of this was common knowledge decades ago when Bullseye shooting was much in vogue. Today, it is not common knowledge, but true all the same.

The fly in the ointment with seating bullets in unsized cases is the risk of a bullet getting shoved way down in the case raising the pressures to a very high level. If you can seat the bullets in an unsized case and put a decent taper crimp on the bullet to keep it in place, it might do OK, but you are better off doing it right.

[AnthonyB]

Chargar, I think you got that brass from me. I think it was Federal, but I don't have the can it is stored in marked as match brass. Can you help me identify it so I can label it properly?
Tony

[beagle]

No doubt in my mind that you're additionally sizing the bullet during the seating operation. I and almost every caster does the same thing when seating cast. I found this out when I pulled some cast .30 Carbines that started out .310. After pulling, they ran .308 consistenlt among the ones I pulled.

However...with the HBWC it don't make a hill of beans difference as the hollow base is blown out to first chamber diameter and then barrel diameter when fired.

I tested a bunch of cast HBWCs from four moulds (#358395) (yes, I have four). In every case, the cast HB blew out evenly and these were cast from WW alloy which is much harder than swaged commercial HB WCs.

So, IMO, if they load good and shoot good, don't sweat the small stuff./beagle

[Char-Gar]

Tony... The Match brass I have came in the original 50 round boxes. It was Remingtonk, Peters and Winchester. I think there is about 100 boxes of the stuff. There was no Federal

[Char-Gar]

Beagle... I will confess to have never cast a hollow base 38 special wadcutter. That is way to slow to produce the numbers needed for Bullseye shooting.

But I have shot thousands upon thousands of factory swaged HBWC, mostly Remington and Speer. I will guarantee you that craming on of these babies in a standard case that is not fully expanded WILL show up at the target in a negative way.

Then again, there is always the issue who what and whose standard of accuracy. I am talking about fine match accuracy where a bullet cutting a line brings the extra point. Nothing less than ultimate accuracy is acceptable. In that game, the small stuff is indeed sweated!

Where a fellow wants to go determines how he gets there.

[RayinNH]

The answer is match brass. This is the brass factory 38 Specials HBWCs come in. The web is much shorter and allows the case to be expanded and bullet seated without contacting the web. I don't believe they sell these things. You have to pick them up from folks who bought factory wadcutter match ammo. They are easy to spot as they have a double cannulure on the case.

Chargar, I didn't know this. I have a number of these that I came by. One hundred still in the original boxes, Winchester's, marked "Super Match", with the double cannelure.

I've learned something new. Thanks for that. :smile:...Ray

[beagle]

First off, I've never used the HBWC in competition other than the Targetmaster and Western Supermatch when it was issued and I wasn't too impressed with it but I have used a heck of a bunch of H & G #50s, a bunch of Lyman 358495s and a quite a few of the 358101s (as well as I recall) when I got a M52 and a Colt MR Match .38 Special.

I'm willing to bet that 99% of the match ammo loaded for the .38 Special is loaded without deep expansion provisions. I'm also willing to bet that the bases from a unfired, pulled .38 wadcutter, HB or PB will be less than the sized diameter when it was loaded.

I'd also say that good, match grade reloads can be turned out by the average reloader with a little effort....either PB or hollow base. Probably more accurate than the average shooter can shoot.

I've shot a heck of a bunch of cast HB WCs out of the Ruger Blackhawk and haven't encountered a problem with them. I have a target out in the shop somewhere shot with reloaded HBWCs out of a bull barrelled Contender (scoped) from a sandbag at 25 yards with 50 rounds through the 10 ring of a standard center. It wasn't skill as this is easy with that rig and I'll admit I got bored during the process and let some slip out and cut the 10 ring but it's an indication of how accurate properly loaded cast ammo can be in the .38 Special

And, I've shot a heck of a lot of bullseye back in the old days in the transition period from wheel guns to autos but gave up that game when my pockets got too shallow and it began to affect my miltary career.

Boy's there's no magic to it. It's attention to detail in inspection and loading, good bullets and time. You can't mass produce match grade ammo but you can turn out a right fair amount of good, accurate reloaded ammo that will shoot as good as the average shooter can shoot.

When you get beyond this point in your shooting, you need to have the money to play the game in the way of guns and match ammunition that shoots to and beyond your capability.

Not starting any flames here but good ammo can be loaded easier than you think and there's all kinds of interesting things happening to that bullet during loading./beagle

[Char-Gar]

Beagel ol pal.. Different people do different things in different ways. I guess it is excess of German DNA, but attention to detail is the only way I know to do things. "Good enought" is never good enough for me. There are two ways of doing things, the right way and the wrong way. I don't cut corners, just because I can. Well, I don't cut corners, period!

I freely admit that corners can be cut and good results still obtained that meets the needs of most folks. That is just not where my head is at. It has never been. In everything I do, I strive for excellence. Yep, I have been accused of being anal retentive, but that is just the way it is.

What I post on this site comes from my experience and not theory. I put it out there and folks can weigh the value for themselves. Each shooter can determine what is good enough for him. I am not trying to be the board "Yoda". Just a grey headed old fart who has been at the shooting game for half a century and learned a few things worth sharing with the younger generation.

I was very active in the Bullseye game for a number of years and knew and shot with many of the best. At that time, folks took deep expansion very seriously and it was the way, that 99% of the reloads were produced. Of course, we only used reloads for practice, when it came match time, we used the lot of factory ammo that had proven accurate and reliable in our pistols. Maybe the younger generation figures that is just a waste of time for the benefit derived. I really don't know, not particularily give a hoot.

I truly don't understand why fellow shooters on this and other boards feel the need to pick at each other and have some sort of pissing contest about who knows the most, who has shot the most, whose way of doing something is best, etc. etc. etc. Different people do different things in different ways.

[canebreaker]

After looking at the paper work on my Lee .38spl. dies, the decapper is listed as a sizing die too. Use the expander die to open up the neck of the case. I can adjust the die that the base of the boolit starts into neck, or I can have the boolit fall to the bottom of the case. Life of case will be shortened.

[2shot]

rick983
Are you the guy that posted this on Target Talk?

More in detail that what I posted on Target Talk. I shoot 2 guns in my Bullseye league that are 38 Special. A S&W Mod. 52 and a S&W Mod. 14. I treat the 2 guns differently when I reload for Bullseye. With the 52 I never use HBWC's but prefer the H&G #50 for that gun or when I have to buy comercial because I have no time to cast I use BBWC's , either one seated flush to the case mouth and taper crimped with a Lee taper crimp die done as a seperate step. I use 2.8 grains of BE with a Remington case and primer trimed .010 shorter that max lenght. Full lenght resize, decap and flare case mouth, prime, drop powder charge, seat bullet and crimp in a seperate step.

For my Mod 14 I do things differently. I still use Remington cases and primers and same charge of 2.8 of BE, cases still trimed .010 short of max lenght and a taper crimp with the Lee die. I keep these cases seperate from the Mod 52's because I never full lenght resize these cases. I use Remington 148 gr. HBWC's in this gun and those bullets are FAT! I just decap and flare the case mouths with these cases, prime, drop powder charge, seat the Rem HBWC and crimp in a seperate step. I have found that with my Mod. 14 (and all my other S&W's) that I still will get a tight fit when seating these bullets in un-resized cases and when seated flush it would take a gorilla to push the bullets deaper into the case (which would be almost impossible because if it's seated flush the case mouth will protect it from being driven deeper). I have also found out that if I seat these Remington WBWC's out about an 1/8 of an inch that my accuracy improves because I'm just short of touching the throats in my cylinder and you still cannot push the bullet deeper in the case when seated out like this. When I do this I still use the Lee taper crimp die but with a light touch so it just bends the case mouth back and puts on a slight crimp. There are a few times that I will have to push the case into the cylinder of this 14 when reloading becuase of carbon or crud build up but it doesn't take much presure and in Bullseye shoots it's not a big deal. I use speed loaders and after I dump my reloads into my cylinder I just run my thumb over the cases to make sure that they are seated, close the cylinder and I'm ready to go. I can reload almost as fast as the guys that are using autoloaders and magazines.

I don't use brass that is made for WC's because they are so hard to find, just the everyday brass that you can get from Midway or Cabela's. I shoot the Remington HBWC's because they are cheap, accurate but dirty to reload. If you use these keep an eye on the crud biuld up on your seating die, you WILL have to clean it from time to time.

This is what has worked for me. If I could afford factory ammo I wouldn't reload especially if I could find the old Federal 148 gr. WC's, for me those shot the best. With that said I can honestly say that my reloads are right on par with factory loads as far as accuracy but it sure would be nice to use my time fishing or shooting instead of reloading. I still use a single stage press (several to be honest) to do my reloading and can do several hundred in a mornings work. Some day I may buy a Dillon but I don't mind old school either.

The one thing that you haven't stated is what type of gun this will be used in. That could make a difference in how you go about reloading these HBWC's.

One more thing, if target shooting then there is no problem with the occassional tight case when relaoding, just push it in place with your thumb. If you need fast reloads for defence use or some other life threatening situation then full lenght resize ALL of your brass so that they will drop in under their own weight.

2shot

[bnitch]

RCBS sells a Cowboy sizer that is a little bigger around just for lead bullets, won't help with length but does seem to help seating the cast bullets. The bottom of the sizer is shaped like a pencil eraser so it does size deeper than the round shaped one.