Liquid paper?

[softpoint]

OK, I tumble lube some boolits, and lube some in a sizer luber. And I paper patch a few. I'd paper patch more, but it does take more time ,and I shoot a lot.
The lube and the paper both protect the bore from the bare lead galling onto it.
I was dipping some 45/70 boolits in LLA the other day and the thought crossed my mind, Why couldn't a liquid paper or a coating be produced that bullets could be dipped in and after they dry, the coating would have the same effect as wrapping? With all the coatings that have already been produced, there may be something already out there that would work.

[1874Sharps]

Softpoint,

You just may be on to something, there! You have started my creative juices to flow. (I seem to have much creativity -- it just has a hard time getting out.) Given control of certain variables, a proper apparatus and a workable substance it certainly sounds good in theory. I will have to think about this.

[softpoint]

It wouldn't matter if it was a coating that would shrink a bit when it dried and shred off the bullet on exit, a uniform coating that stayed on the boolit all the way to the target would be fine. Benefits would be the same as PP, No gas checks to worry with, soft alloys at hunting velocities.[smilie=6:

[dragonrider]

Boron Nitride???? it is a product we use at work when forging discs and other parts for jet engines. It is very slippery. Don't know how it works at room temp, here it is always used between 1750 and 2000 degrees. It is applied with a spray gun to parts that are moderately warm so that the carrier evaporates quickly and only the boron is left behind. The carrier is water. Problem is it is almost $170.00 a gallon, but it gets mixed with a gallon of water therby making 2 gallons. For boolit coating application it could problably be cut by 3 water and one boron, or perhaps greater. I am sure that many thousands of boolit could be coated with one gallon.

[softpoint]

But isn't boron a really hard substance? seems like that is what the welding rods we use to hardface with has in them.
Would it build up say, .002 -.004 on the bullet?

[leftiye]

CuBN is used as coating on carbide cutting tools. Don't know how hard it is. But nitrides are usually muy hard.

[303Guy]

I have mentioned before about my dipping my loaded boolits into molten 'waxy-lube'. What about something containing sealing wax? Or a waxy carrier with 'paper dust' in it. I suppose PVA paint is too abrassive? It could be used for fire-lapping. Is PVA paint abrasive? PVA glue dries to form a plasic like film that does not stick to lead. Perhaps that could be used as a carrier for the 'paper dust'. Saw-dust instead of 'paper dust'?

[softpoint]

We see accelerator rounds that are in a sabot. A liquid like that, that would dry to that kind of material?, Or would it need to actually be a paper, or wood fiber base?

[runfiverun]

i thnk david tubb uses boron nitride to coat his jacketed stuff for long range applications similar to moly.

[Jim]

Years ago, there was a producrt on the market that was used to coat tool handles like channel locks and things like that. You warm up the tool to something like 150 or so and dip the handle in this thick, rubbery looking stuff. You take the tool out immediately and hang it up to cure.
Y'all suppose something on that order could be done? Sounds like it would be kinda' slow, though.

[bcp477]

This has been thought of before.....and kicked around on this forum. I have done some research on this sort of thing before, with no good results, so far. Of course, I was not trying anything exotic - like boron nitride. I did a series of tests involving using high temperature paint....and this did not work out well. The issue, I found, is NOT temperature resistance, but rather, a coating for the bullet that will have the necessary PHYSICAL "toughness". The paint idea was approaching the problem the wrong way. What is needed is essentially a sabot, thick enough to isolate the bullet from the bore, to hold the bullet tightly, soft enough "take the rifling".....and strip off the bullet after it exits the barrel. The efficacy of a bullet coating that stays with the bullet, all the way to the target, is another matter entirely. My last foray into this concept involved the idea of making cellulose sabots, molded around each bullet, in a special mold. Though I found a formulation of a cellulose mixture, basically paper mache with the paper constituent ground to a fine pulp, mixed with water and a chemical binder (thinned glue)....that seemed to have the right characteristics..... I have not pursued the issue of designing and obtaining a mold for this. So, the project has gone no further than that, so far. I don't cast my own bullets, so I have no molds.....and I haven't gotten around to finalizing my ideas on this.....so I've never taken it any further.

My thinking, as of this point, is that a slightly modified bullet mold, of the correct finished diameter (and matching the bullet to be used), would be the best starting point for this. The bullets could be sized down, just as I do now for my paper-patching, thus giving enough free space within the mold for the sabot material to surround the bullet. A release agent would be needed to ensure easy release of the sabot material (both from the bullet in flight and the mold). That wouldn't be a problem, in my view. The chief modification needed to the mold, as I see it, would be the addition of a nose "cup" to hold the nose portion of the bullet in place, centred in the mold....and to exclude the sabot material from that portion of the bullet. That, I think, could be produced using a good gel or putty epoxy (as well as a sized bullet, coated with the release agent).
As I said, I have not pursued this - so, if one of you wishes to take the idea (I'm certainly not the first to have it - so I WON'T take credit for the concept) and run with it.....feel free.

Besides the considerations listed above, one absolutely important thing is that the final, "coated" bullet MUST be of the proper diameter - so simply dipping bullets in something, whatever it is, would probably not work too well, in my view.

As for other, more exotic materials for this sort of thing.....I will add this - just don't forget COST. It is no good, in my view, if the perfect material/ process is found.....and it ends up costing $3.00 per bullet. So, IMO, the best way to approach this is to keep it simple - as much as possible.

[softpoint]

Expense could be an issue. That is one of the reasons we cast. Sizing not such an issue because I size my boolits twice when I patch. I size again after they are dry. The consistency of a liquid coat could determine the thickness. Much like paint. One of the things I had thought of was on the same general formulation as bedliner material. ? I don't know if it could be sized after it was applied, or whether it would be too "springy" Whatever is used would either have to stay on all the way to the target, (jacket) or come off at the muzzle(sabot)? Another thing I had thought of was epoxy primer, which is PVC. (yes I know about fumes from burning PVC, but we shouldn't burn it.)It would probably have a higher flash point than paper ? [smilie=2:

[softpoint]

Boron Nitride???? it is a product we use at work when forging discs and other parts for jet engines. It is very slippery. Don't know how it works at room temp, here it is always used between 1750 and 2000 degrees. It is applied with a spray gun to parts that are moderately warm so that the carrier evaporates quickly and only the boron is left behind. The carrier is water. Problem is it is almost $170.00 a gallon, but it gets mixed with a gallon of water therby making 2 gallons. For boolit coating application it could problably be cut by 3 water and one boron, or perhaps greater. I am sure that many thousands of boolit could be coated with one gallon.

I'd like to know more about the Boron Nitride, What is the purpose in applying it? Is the thickness about right, and could the boolits be post treatment sized? Like I was saying, I'm a contract fitter-weldor by trade, and welding rods that have Boron in them are hard as Superman's kneecap.:coffee:

[docone31]

I do not know how to respond here.
I had thought, I could dip my boolitts, then size them.
Well, if the "stuff" is stable enough to size, then it will remain on the boolitt during firing. If it is loose enough to size down, then spring back will make it too loose on sizing.
I am still convinced, paper rolled into cylinders on a boolitt is still the best.
At least I have found it so.

[303Guy]

How wouuld we dry the paper mush to get the 'patched' boolit out the mould?

[softpoint]

I do not know how to respond here.
I had thought, I could dip my boolitts, then size them.
Well, if the "stuff" is stable enough to size, then it will remain on the boolitt during firing. If it is loose enough to size down, then spring back will make it too loose on sizing.
I am still convinced, paper rolled into cylinders on a boolitt is still the best.
At least I have found it so.

I can see how whatever is used, if it didn't adhere to the boolit, might be a problem to size down because it would spring back. But if the "stuff" were to stick on the bullet all the way to the target, a uniform coating wouldn't be bad I'd think.
I think what hurts accuracy is when a patch partially comes off ?:-)

[bcp477]

How wouuld we dry the paper mush to get the 'patched' boolit out the mould?

The paper "mush" (I like that term :smile:) would dry naturally. In my experiments before, mainly to find the right consistency for the "mush", drying inside the mold didn't seem to be an issue. I made a sort of mold, not really a finished mold, but a chamber of sorts, to experiment with how the mush would be molded to the bullet. This did not produce a usable saboted bullet, but it was not intended to, at that point. Anyway, drying was not a problem - probably in part because the mush contained thinned wood glue as one of the ingredients. I used as little water as possible in the mixture...so the mix was probably no more than 25 - 30 % water.

Oh, after I posted last evening, I remembered why I never carried this experiment any further before. I found out that the mold for the RCBS bullet I shoot was something like $120, for a two-chamber mold. I didn't want to spend that much, with no guarantee of the project ever producing anything useful. If I could get a suitable mold for a LEE type price.....that would be a different prospect. But, alas, since I don't cast my own bullets (and probably never will)..... I am limited in my options.

In case anyone else is interested in pursuing this...... the mold needed could likely be very simple. Instead of a regular split mold, I think it likely that a mold consisting of a drilled and machined "hole" in a block of metal or plastic.....of the correct size and internal contour, could be used for this. It would be open at the top, with the bullet inserted, tail end up. The bottom portion would need to be machined to cup the bullet nose closely and keep the bullet centred. A small hole at the nose end (a pin hole) would be useful, as excess water could drain from the "mush" while drying. The bullet would sit in the mold, with the tail end just below the surface, so that a flat. closed tail end could be formed on the sabot, with the mush. It likely would not even be necessary, according to my experiments, to have a cover for the mold. The sabot bases could be smoothed with a straightedge. The bullet I happen to shoot is a grease-groove type, but this is certainly not necessary.....and would have no bearing on the mold chamber itself.....that would be smooth-sided. The pin hole in the bottom (at the nose of the bullet) could serve to allow the bullet to be pushed out of the mold, after drying. I can see that a multiple mold could be made easily with a CNC machine.....with as many as 50 or more "chambers"....to allow lots of sabots to be made at once. The chambers would need to be treated with a release agent, before use, as would the bullets. This could be something as simple as "Pam" cooking spray, perhaps. Using a grease-groove bullet could be an advantage, in fact, because the grooves would help to hold the mush in place on the bullet. For applying the mush, the bullets (back end only) could be dipped into the "batter", before being inserted into the mold. After removal from the mold, an exacto knife could be used to cut several slits in the sabot, to ensure that it would peel away from the bullet in flight.

Come to think of it, the mold for this could be generated from a block of putty epoxy. For that matter, I could use an already patched bullet as a "master", lubed on the exterior, to "mold" a mold, so to speak.....from the epoxy. Whoo Hoo ! I might be back in business on this idea yet. It would ultimately be preferable to have a mold block, with lots of chambers, made as a permanent fixture....but, in the interim, at least for experimental purposes, the epoxy mold could do. I might give this a try.

Of course, it goes without saying that there is no necessity for the sabot material to be cellulose-based. That was simply my original idea, following the logic of paper...in paper-patching. The sabots could be made from melted plastic, poured into the mold(s), over the already inserted bullets...... or any other suitable material. Lots of possibilities here, I think.

[bcp477]

I can see how whatever is used, if it didn't adhere to the boolit, might be a problem to size down because it would spring back. But if the "stuff" were to stick on the bullet all the way to the target, a uniform coating wouldn't be bad I'd think.
I think what hurts accuracy is when a patch partially comes off ?:-)

softpoint,

I agree.....and I think you are on the right track, at least conceptually speaking. The tough part is finding a material that will have the necessary characteristics, but that won't cost a mint.....and require an entire factory to apply. I have no real clue as to what to try for this - so I will likely pursue my sabot idea, instead.

[softpoint]

If you can pursue that sabot idea for cheap, that might be the way to go. I think I am going to try the epoxy base paint ,In the oilfield,many equipment companies have gone to this type of paint. It is a two part paint, it is tough as nails, yet slightly pliable. and slick after it is dry. it sticks well, I believe it would stay with the bullet all the way. There is a clear coat version that only has UV filter in it. I'm going to try that first and see how it sticks to the boolit, and how it takes to sizing. I believe it is PVC based, and is slightly harder than PVC pipe, but not so hard as to be brittle
The advantages to a sabot or coating that is relatively easy to apply would be a big step forward IMHO, in this day of declining availability of WW lead and linotype, expensive gaschecks. People could use alloys of softer and unknown mixes, range lead, etc, for both rifle and handgun loads. :p

[303Guy]

This sounds do-able with a proper set up! An idea crossed my mind - grease grooved boolits with the mush filling the grease grooves then sized as per a normal greased boolit. The dried paper rings would be lube soaked.

Another idea - some boolits need to be patched right up to the ogive so there would be no alignment in the mold prospects but a rebated tail could be used as a nose and base alignment and the boolit grooves would hold the 'sabot'. The grooves would have to be shallow to facilitate the 'sabot' comming off at the muzzle.

To create a casting with the rebate and a single groove in the middle could be done with a three piece lathe turned mold with the three pieces each forming a section of the mold that spigot together. The centre piece would be split and would be held together by the two ends. Im fact, multiple grooves would easily done.

This concept.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-298F.jpg


bcp477, would you mind posting the 'formula' for making the paper 'mush'?
(Ther is another possible aplication for the paper sabot, and that is for seating J-words in an unsized case. My current method requires very soft paper hand-towl which is fine for the hornet but cannot provide enough neck tension to allow for magazine feed on the 303 Brit. A molded paper cup on the other hand ....:roll: A

[bcp477]

303Guy,

I'd love to..... if I had a formula. I checked through my notes and it looks as if I never made an exact record of the "mush" formula. That, obviously, was stupid on my part. :oops: I can tell you from the process that the most important thing is that the cellulose be FINELY ground - with no large bits at all. The more consistent, the better. As I remember, it really didn't matter what type of paper that was used, as long as the bits were quite small (fine confetti-sized or smaller) - that is, I don't think I did enough research to really know. I cannot say what paper composition might be best, either - I'm afraid that my research didn't get to that point. The paper I used was a non-bleached, cheap, lined notebook paper, which seemed a bit softer (and less abrasive) than the regular white lined paper I use for patching bullets. - and I also happened to have a lot of it on hand. I do think that the paper I used had some cotton content (I say that based on the somewhat fibrous nature of the pulp (mush)). However, it certainly wasn't a high-quality, high cotton content, rag paper. I think it was approximately 10 - 12 # bond.....not heavier than that. It proved to be too thin for patching (at least, for my needs). As for the other ingredients, they were only water and yellow glue.

The process may well be just as important as the ratio of ingredients. The first thing I did was to soak the paper bits in water, a lot of water, until they were, well......mush. Then, I squeezed out as much water as possible....and blended the mush together, to smooth the consistency. I used an old blender for this. I did have to add back a little water to get the material into the form of a semi-stiff paste. Semi-stiff.....not watery, nor too stiff. After I had the paste or mush, the way I wanted it....I de-watered it a bit more, by hand squeezing. Then, when I was ready to use the material and not before, I added the yellow glue and re-blended. About 1 tablespoon to 7 - 8 oz. of paper "mush", if memory serves.

The result was a nasty looking by fairly smooth "mush" or paste...... again, not so stiff as to be difficult to push into small spaces...... but not so loose as to be watery. My first experimentation centred around getting the mush to the right consistency....but I can't say that I ever arrived at an exact formula. Probably, that is why I don't have an exact formula in my notes. The object of my first efforts at molding the mush were simply to see if the stuff could be properly molded around something as small as a bullet. This was not a big problem. I do not recall having to adjust the mix or anything like that. If the consistency of the paste is good, then the molding seemed to be a non-issue. Next, I moved on to making a simple "mold", of sorts. As I said before, it was really not designed to produce a finished, usable saboted bullet (only to get an idea of what the consistency and characteristics of a "finished" sabot might be like) - and it did not.

The test moldings I completeed seemed to be OK. That is, the material adhered to the bullet well, yet peeled away cleanly. I would say that it is a good possibility that this material would allow sizing, after the sabot is made. But, I cannot comment on any "spring back"....or anything like that.

One issue, which I did make careful note of, is that it MAY be necessary to change the relative size of the casting, vs. the thickness of the sabot, to get the best results. I was not able to do this, as I only have the one sizing die. But, in my case, for example, using a bullet of 0.314" dia. (after sizing) .....and trying to mold a sabot of finished dia. 0.3235", approx. was a bit problematic (making the sabot walls a bit thin). I noted that I thought it might be best to try a casting of about 0.308", in future.

That is where my research stopped. As I said before, I never finalized a mold design.....and never obtained a mold, let alone a smaller bullet sizing die. I also had other things ongoing, so I shelved the whole thing at that point.

Sorry for the inexactitude - I probably should have treated the whole project a bit more scientifically, in case others wanted to give it a go. :oops: :oops: (again) I guess I thought that, once I completed the project, hopefully successfully....I could translate everything into a repeatable sequence and set of instructions, etc.

In any case, I hope that this will help you, such as it is.

[carpintx]

Some of these ideas utilizing plstics etc. sound a bit dangerous to the barell of the gun. Plastic melts, as does some of these other ideas - I don't think I would want to shoot any projectile down the barell of any of my guns with a coating of a material that melts.

------------------------------
carpintx

[303Guy]

Thanks for that, bcp477. That's exactly the info I was looking for! It may be a while before I can do any experimenting (I'll have to get a blender too).


I don't think I would want to shoot any projectile down the barell of any of my guns with a coating of a material that melts.My thinking too!
Yet plastic wads and sabots are the norm! Cotton wool case filler is supposed to be able to cause grass fires yet only once have I been able to heat the cotton anywhere near hot enough to start a fire. But it did happen once, so ... ! I would think that heating of any plastic material would be due to friction. That makes the concern very valid! Smearing under pressure could also take place!

[softpoint]

Accelerator rounds go very fast and use a sabot. Most materials that would be used aren't subject to the heat long enough to melt. You can pass a stick of butter across the flame of a cutting torch without it melting. If you do it fast enough.
If someone were loading for a full auto gun, or heated the barrel a lot with rapid fire , there may be a cause for concern. Doubtful if a streak of melted plastic or similar material would stick to barrel anyway. Sometimes shotgunners get plastic fouling in barrels, but that isn't the same situation. I have no doubt a thin plastic cup on a lead bullet would work well, but I am looking for something easy to make .

[303Guy]

I have no doubt a thin plastic cup on a lead bullet would work well, but I am looking for something easy to make .It would quite easy to swage a plastic cup. But how about swaging a paper cup? The die and ram would be tapered to facilitate extraction, the pressure would expell excess water, so the cup might be removeable while wet. The base of the cup would need to fit the boolit heel snugly but it would not matter if the rest is slightly loose - it would be swaged by the case neck. It could also be sized onto the bullet while still wet.

Another possibility would be to swage the cup into a split mold with a guided ram which then gets withdrawn and a boolit inserted in its place. If a bonding agen that does not stick to metal is used it would facilitated removal from the mold while still wet.

I must say though that at this point in time I still want to perfect the wrapped patch. Wrapping can be done while whatching Myth Busters or David Attenborough's shows on TV. But the 'paper mush cup' sounds fun and promising! (And once set up, it could be pretty quick!)

[yeahbub]

For an excellent example of a thin plastic jacket on a very effective bullet design, one can examine Federal Ny-Clad ammo. . . .
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=828

Regarding a dip-applied paper patch, essentially it's a paper making operation where tthe "screen" is cylindrical and the the paper is left in place. I don't believe much of a binder would be necessary, if any, since the paper slurries I read about for hand made papers often don't use any and the strength comes from the randon interlacing of the fibers. The slurry would also shrink as it dried, tightening it on the boolit. As long as it cleanly gets blasted free like a wrapped patch, it should work okay. A possible source of fiber for experimentation might be cotton dryer lint from t-shirts and such. . . . minus debris like, uh, certain stray, kinky strands of protein, even if they are red (ahem).

[softpoint]

So plastic cup or paper cup swaging dies could be made to work in a regular reloading press, I like that idea. And the Federal Nyclad jackets I assume are of Nylon? Could that substance be used in our dies?This could make metal gaschecks obsolete for the most part. :cbpour:

[bcp477]

Yeahbub,

You are quite right - this is really just an exercise in "making paper".....only in a different shape than flat sheets. You're probably correct that no binding agent is necessary - I cannot say that it is (I just included it because I thought it might help). And 303Guy, you are right, too..... it shouldn't be too difficult to design a setup to swage or mold plastic sabots onto bullets.

It occurs to me, at this point, however, that we are "re-inventing the wheel" in a big way ....albeit in rather a more technical way than some conecepts. The plastic sabot swaging idea could certainly be made to work - but how much might it cost (in time for design, fabrication, materials, etc. - and then, you still have to find the right plastic to use.....and how much will that cost ?) The paper sabot idea I'm sure can also be made to work - but how much effort and cost will be required to make it practical ? The concept of swaging copper jackets (from thin copper sheet) onto cast bullets (the subject of another thread) certainly could be made to work, with enough effort applied, also (after all, this is how jacketed bullets are made) - but again, how much ?

With all of that (and the idea of finding a coating material for bullets discussed earlier in this thread, as well) in mind...... I'm not sure that I want to invest a lot of time in this sort of thing. Old fashioned paper-patching works well for me.....and I don't really find it too onerous, in terms of the time investment. Without a doubt, perserverance in the face of discouraging details such as these is the "secret" to really making advances..... so I applaud any efforts to improve the "state of the art". However, though I think I will continue to play with other ideas a bit..... I'll continue to reserve MOST of my energy for the "old fashioned way" - especially if I can't find simple, low cost ways to effect large improvements.

[303Guy]

This could make metal gaschecks obsolete for the most part.That's an idea that might be worth pursuing! Some of us are making our own gaschecks already! Use a suitable plastic sheet instead and we have the plastic gascheck - brilliant! Why not? And while we're at it, why not a paper gascheck?

Just a thought, if'n we were to make a paper seating cup with a taper and a casting with a matching taper, we would efectively have a boat tail boolit without all the disadvantages normally associated with boat tails! The pater cup or sabot would seat the boolit and ride the bore, imparting sping and sealing the gasses (and cleaning the bore at the same time) and protecting the boat tail from buffeting by muzzle blast gasses then simply drop away (if it isn't already blown away) leaving a stable boat tailed cast boolit to proceed to it's intended target! And it would be easy to make! Time and effort would be in the development of the system which is not a bad thing since it would be a form of grey cell excersize and a heap of fun! Now I'm getting REALLY interested! (Like I wasn't interested before). Mmmm....! When I first started out with my hornet, it was the original idea I had but I didn't know how to make it happen.

Conceptual paper sabot and casting before seating.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PAPERSABOT2.jpg

After seating.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/PAPERSABOT.jpg

[softpoint]

The tapered cup would be easier to form than a straight sided one? When I patch my 45/70 slugs, I size to .457, (its the smallest sizer i have) Then I wrap only to the crimp groove, ( I use these boolits mostly in lever guns. ,but I have had success in .308 bolt guns by only patching to the crimp groove,) After the patches have dried, I size to .461. I'm sure I squeeze the bullet down a little, but that doesn't hurt anything. If a straight sided, thin paper cup could be formed, a person could use his existing molds.?

[perotter]

Maybe make hydrocellulose. Boil tissue paper in muriatic acid.

1. Put 300 sheets of tissue paper into 2 quart glass jar.
2. Cover with acid plus about an inch over the paper. About 1.5 pints.
3. Cover jar, but NOT tightly.
4. Put jar in boiling water.
5. Boil for 30 minutes. Stir every 5 minutes.
6. Wash the acid out with water & baking soda. Do so until the hydrocellulose tests neutral.

I'd guess that other paper would work. I have made hydrocellulose. I have not used it for bullets.

[leftiye]

Copper plating, on knurled boolits, with Rooster jacket applied over it. Just kidding.

Perotter, what kinda acid?

You don't need the cup. 303 has already done it - paper tubes pressed on to yer boolits. The trick is to get a paper that will swage onto the boolit and compress well to become hard. Then just size it on.

One thought on all this - there have been in the past copper tubes made to fit into molds and have boolits cast inside them. The problem was that the copper tube stopped in the barrel and the lead core blew out.

[perotter]

Hydrochloric acid. Muriatic acid is it's old name & what it is called in the hardware stores.

[303Guy]

The paper tubes are formed on a mandrel. The paper was tracing paper 100% (I think) cotton for strength and the tube is glued. It is made with dry paper and when the glue has cured, it is soaked in water until it swell enough to slip the core into it. It shrinks down real tight. I've done 22 hornet and 303 Brit. The harnet hasn't been tested but the Brit has. I can't say that it shot straight - it was my two-groove which doesn't like cast in any form. I'll upload some pics.

On making paper mush with acid, can phosphoric acid be used? The reason I would prefer that is that it is a rust preventative as opposed to the worst rusting agent in the form of hydrochloric acid (spirits of salts/muriatic acid).

Since we are talking molded paper sabot's, how about taking the concept to the next level and making a 'paper sabot' as in to carry a smaller than bore boolit?

The idea of a tapered 'patch sabot' is indeed the ease of making but it has another theoretical function, that being to release the boolit at the muzzle. The idea is that the case neck squeezes the cup onto the boolit, holding it firm. On exiting the muzzle, it should open up again and release the boolit. (Theories are great - one can make anything happen in them!):mrgreen:

[303Guy]

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-026F-1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-016F-1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-028F-1.jpg

For what it's worth, I don't think this is going to take off in a big way. Molded paper mush sabot's maybe. Specially for tiney calibers like the 22 cals because they are too small for some of us to wrap.[smilie=1:

[303Guy]

Another idea!

Here is my paper cup arrangement.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-133F_edited.jpg

Now, if'n we were to use something like that then add starch to the cup in the die or mold, it would soak into the paper and cause it to adhere to the sides of the mold until reasonably dry. The starch (some other binding agent could be used too) would give the cup handling strength.

[rhead]

303 guy: have you tried making thos tubes by the foot or 8 inches or whatever fits a sheet and then cutting them to length? Have you tried them long enough to cover the base?

[303Guy]

No, I haven't tried that. I did try a longer tube that overhang the base but for some reason that I don't remember I chose to pursue the idea of an open base patch. I didn't find any avidence of the patch itself failing i.e. moving on the boolit. I did try an overhanging patch and filled the overhang with 'waxy-lube' to form a 'wax wad' under the boolit. Can't say it made any difference. It was supposed to lube the bore for the next round and to coat the inside of the suppressor. It did those things but I never tested them for accuracy.

[softpoint]

303 guy,
I like that post with the crossed strips of paper. that looks like that would be just as good as wrapping, and could be faster. and, if you only wanted one layer of paper, easier . Trying to put a single wrap on a boolit is much harder for me than double wrapping. Is that a special cup for positioning the strips, or could a person use a fired case to put the strips on the bullet.?:)

[perotter]

On making paper mush with acid, can phosphoric acid be used? The reason I would prefer that is that it is a rust preventative as opposed to the worst rusting agent in the form of hydrochloric acid (spirits of salts/muriatic acid).

Since we are talking molded paper sabot's, how about taking the concept to the next level and making a 'paper sabot' as in to carry a smaller than bore boolit?

The idea of a tapered 'patch sabot' is indeed the ease of making but it has another theoretical function, that being to release the boolit at the muzzle. The idea is that the case neck squeezes the cup onto the boolit, holding it firm. On exiting the muzzle, it should open up again and release the boolit. (Theories are great - one can make anything happen in them!):mrgreen:

I think phosphoric acid would work, but I'm not an kind of expert on hydrocelluse. My understanding is that hydrochloric is used because if cheap & available.

I don't even know if it would have the correct strength for this application. What I do know is that it can be formed easily. I use it for something else.

All of the the hydrochloric acid or any other acid has to be removed.

[303Guy]

Thanks, perotter.

softpoint, that is indeed a special positioning device. Without it the process of installing the strips is a pain and slow.

I experimented with single wrap patches.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-312F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-087F-1.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-085F-1.jpg

The top one is glued onto the boolit with a glue that does not adhere to lead.
The second one has a counterbalance strip to balance the lap joint. (The counterbalance strip is glued onto the underside - when sized, the strip and overlap are ironed into the boolit).
The bottom one is supposed to have the strip angle matching the rifling angle. The idea was to keep the boolit as symmetrical as possible. I also did a spiral wound patch. Only a small dab of glue is needed under the start corner and end corner. The glue needs to form a butt joint and it helps keep the shape of the patch which prevents it from unwrapping.

These worked but were not range tested (they worked in that the pactches came off at the muzzle). They were not worth the effort but they were fun playing with.

[yeahbub]

I didn't mean to give the impression that Ny-Clad ammo is made with mecahnically applied plastic jackets. Rather they are dipped or sprayed on. Apparently they're tough enough for the job, but the expense and equipment isn't within reach of this do-it-yourselfer. A pulp slurry I can dip a boolit in that has the proper consistency to leave an even coat sounds more like my speed. Dipping stuff and letting it dry is well within my skill level. I imagine one could do them by the batch with a wooden block with indentations for the ogives and a tacky substance to hold the boolits and, voila, fifty at a time. I like conventional patching - it's a relaxing excercise, but with the effort they take, I have some resistance to using them for so casual a purpose as plinking.

Perotter, what is the purpose of hydrocellulose? I had not heart of it before and I'd like to know more about it. I'm familiar with muriatic acid - I used a lot of that cleaning bricks and concrete.

[perotter]

The fiber in the paper is much finer. Hydrocellulose/water-whatever is about the only way to have liquid paper.

I don't know it would have the needed mechanical properties. Cheap enough to try.

[303Guy]

The lube and the paper both protect the bore from the bare lead galling onto it.
I was dipping some 45/70 boolits in LLA the other day and the thought crossed my mind, Why couldn't a liquid paper or a coating be produced that bullets could be dipped in and after they dry, the coating would have the same effect as wrapping?Over on Casting, a poster tried a new trick which produced some unexpected results. He is using a JPW/LLA mix and tried dusting the lubed boolits with cornflour to get rid of the stickyness. He reports that his bore now stays clean and shiny with not even the normal grey lead dust!

Could this be the 'liquid paper dip'?

[perotter]

Casting season, for me, is coming up. I'm going to try the JPW/LLA mix & cornflour.

[Lead pot]

:groner:

[303Guy]

Well, I just bought some cornflour - it's gluten free! Oh yeah!:mrgreen:

Anyway, I hope it's the right stuff 'cause I'm gonna try it too!:roll:

Hint. Don't get it on your cloths - it doesn't dust off![smilie=1:

[dogbert41]

I wonder if it smells like cornbread when you shoot?

[303Guy]

Now, if'n we were to take perotter's paper pulp and dry it to a powder and mix that with lube ..... ? Superlube ?!

Later today I shall pull out my plain cast hornet mold and do some experimenting! (Starting with cornstarch/lube paste). I'll be aiming for a 55gr plain cast knurled boolit doing around 2700fps - the same as my jacket loads. The criteria I shall be looking for is zero leading in a hot bore! (My hornet loads heat the barrel something awsome at one load and runs cool at .2 grains more! :shock: )

[fiatmom]

I use to shoot lead boulets called nyclads. I beleive they were produced by S&W.
The coating stuck to the bullet and did not seperate. I can not remember if they were sized prior to coating or not. They seem to have been dipped and dried similar to the rubber coating on tools.I loved them for indoor shooting there was no exposed lead. I still have a few but the quality of the last shipment was very poor since they were floor sweepings.

[RMulhern]

Horse**** galore!!

Nothing will beat paper! It sheds.....and leaves a very aerodynamically designed naked bullet to fly to the target!!

[303Guy]

Horse**** galore!!

Nothing will beat paper!Aah... true, but, ever tried patching teensie leetle hornet boogers?:mrgreen:

I have a range pick-up 60 cal boolit which I patched for fun. Now that one was easy! (Compared with 30 cal's). I could actually hold on to the thing! Especially in cooler weather when I can't even feel to pick up the leetle ones!:roll:

Anyway, there is the fun factor of trying something new and different.[smilie=1:
:drinks:

Hah, rugerman1, I beat you to it! :mrgreen: (Not intentionally).