Sharps Leading Problem

[chuebner]

My past couple shooting sessions with my Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 have produced some light leading in the first 5-6" of the barrel. I normally load either the Rapine 460500 or the Lyman 457125 sized to .460 using a modified Emmert's lube and 65-68 gr. 2F GOEX. Bullets as cast are soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail so I don't think they are too hard. Any ideas on the leading? Any and all thoughts appreciated.

charlie

[RMulhern]

Try sizing to .458" and maybe you'll solve the problem!

[montana_charlie]

Any ideas on the leading? Any and all thoughts appreciated.
Have you changed anything about your load?
How about bullet seating depth?

CM

[canyon-ghost]

Pushing them too fast? I don't know for sure....

[RMulhern]

Shoot these and you won't have to worry about leading:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/th_908373a5.jpg (http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b67/Sharps110/BPCR%20SHOOTING%20RELOADING/?action=view&current=908373a5.jpg)

[Gellot Wilde]

I have always had the same problem in the Pedersoli Sharps...just what you are describing. I have shot .458's in the form of the classic Lyman round nose bullet.

I recently changed onto a Buffalo Arms creedmoor bullet which I'm shooting at .459...that's what it drops at. Still seem to be getting that same old leading problem. However...It does not seem that it is a real problem as it pushes out easily and the accuracy is excellent.

I am starting to think that fiddling about with the seating depth may be the answer?

[Boz330]

A friend had problems with his Pedersoli and it went away as the barrel was shot in. It took 100s of rounds though. A little leading isn't unusual out of my gun but it is only a few flakes and doesn't seem to affect accuracy. Long slivers is another thing altogether though.

Bob

[BPCR Bill]

Try loading up some (GASP) jacketed boolits. Shoot 10 rounds, clean between shots. A buddy in Montana just picked up a new '74 Sharps from C.Sharps, and they recommended doing that with the Badger barrel. Just a thought. It doesn't sound like your boolits are going too fast to get leading.

Regards,
Bill

[Gunlaker]

My past couple shooting sessions with my Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 have produced some light leading in the first 5-6" of the barrel. I normally load either the Rapine 460500 or the Lyman 457125 sized to .460 using a modified Emmert's lube and 65-68 gr. 2F GOEX. Bullets as cast are soft enough to scratch with a thumbnail so I don't think they are too hard. Any ideas on the leading? Any and all thoughts appreciated.

charlie

I have a Pedersoli that leads a tiny bit with unsized (0.459-0.460) 20:1 postell style bullets and similar loads of Goex Cartridge. Mine slugs @ 0.457". When I size to 0.457" all traces of leading go away. (I also wipe between shots).

Chris.

[Bullshop]

Some of our customers have reported that after switching to our lube from another very popular BP lube the leading not only stopped but cleaned up.
If you are willing to try I will send a sample.
BIC/BS

[hiram]

How long is the barrel? Could the bullet be running out of lube?

[BPCR Bill]

How long is the barrel? Could the bullet be running out of lube?

That is a very good question. I'm not sure of the number of grease grooves on that particular boolit. Best indicator is the presence of the "grease star" on the muzzle. My 45-110 has a 34" heavy barrel, but my boolit carries enough lube all the way down the spout. Nice grease star on the muzzle. That could be an issue.

Regards,
Bill

[montana_charlie]

My past couple shooting sessions with my Pedersoli Sharps 45-70 have produced some light leading in the first 5-6" of the barrel.
How long is the barrel? Could the bullet be running out of lube?
That is a very good question. I'm not sure of the number of grease grooves on that particular boolit. Best indicator is the presence of the "grease star" on the muzzle. My 45-110 has a 34" heavy barrel, but my boolit carries enough lube all the way down the spout. Nice grease star on the muzzle. That could be an issue.
You guys aren't keeping the details of the problem straight.

If a bullet runs out of lube in the first five or six inches of the barrel, the man has a problem only God can solve.

I asked earlier if this shooter has 'changed anything'.
He did not answer.

He is complaining of leading, but has not indicated if this is a 'new problem'...or something that has afflicted him for a long time.
He says it has happened during his last 'couple of shooting sessions', but has not returned to provide specific information.

In my opinion, if he really wanted help, he would have stayed around long enough to get some that was directed at whatever his problem actually is.

CM

[SharpsShooter]

You guys aren't keeping the details of the problem straight.

If a bullet runs out of lube in the first five or six inches of the barrel, the man has a problem

CM


The first 5-6 inches of the barrel would depend on the directional perspective ya reckon MC?:mrgreen:


SS

[Don McDowell]

If a bullet runs out of lube in the first five or six inches of the barrel, the man has a problem only God can solve.



No maybe not. If that improvised lube is to soft, not filling and sticking in the lube grooves, and if that rifle has one of the problematic oversized long freebore chambers...............

I saw a rifle foul out severally leaded in the throat with the money bullet and one of the superspecial bragged about lubes.
But a few more details might be helpful.

[SharpsShooter]

If the leading is at the breach end, I suspect you are under diameter and over hard on alloy. My reasoning is that a too hard boolit that is under diameter will travela short distance into the bore before it obdurates, resulting in leading until it seals up. Go to 40:1 and increase diameter if possible and I think you will see the problem solved.

If it is the other end.............I'm with MC......


SS

[Don McDowell]

If its in the 5-6 before the muzzle he needs to get a good lube, and load a fiber wad under the bullet.
Also what would be handy to know.... what's the ambient temp and humidity? In really hot and dry conditions without a good wiping routine, just blasting rounds down range will keep you busy mining lead for a good long while.....
Which brings us back to ... Are you sure all the lead from previous firings is removed from the barrel? If not any place there's a little fleck left will grab a hunk and add to the pile every bullet that goes down the tube.
Lots of things could be, but more info from the OP would be a big help in diagnosing the problem

[chuebner]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the input. Sorry I have not responded sooner but I had to go to Cozumel for awhile for some customer hand-holding and service.

OK. rifle data:

Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Silhouette Standard 45-70
Barrel length: 32”
Barrel twist: 1:18 in. RH, 6-groove .450 X .458


Load:

Rapine 460-500 bullet, sized to .460, Lyman 457125 sized .459, Lee 459-405 sized .460
GOEX 2F 65-68gr. .030 card wad
Modified Emmerts Lube, SPG, White Label Lube

I blow tube between shots-3 to 5 breaths. Shooting conditions here in Paradise range from 85-95 degrees with 50 to 90% humidity so we don't worry much about hot, dry conditions. And I do get a nice damp lube star at the muzzle. The leading I have noticed is more than flakes but less than streaks. After running wet 50/50 Ballistol/water patches through bore I can see definite leading 5-6 inches in front of chamber. I usually will soak the bore with Kroil at home and let it sit awhile before a thorough cleaning.

The load I'm using is my standard 45-70 load which produces no leading in a Numrich rolling block and M1888 Springfield.

I have not done a chamber cast on this rifle but by eyeball the chamber seems to abruptly end at the rifleing. No smooth transition like the rolling block has. I bought this rifle used and the previous owner stated he only shot two boxes of factory loads through it and the recoil was way too much for him. Maybe I just need to shoot it more to smooth it out or (horrors) put some J-word bullets down the pipe.

[montana_charlie]

chuebner,
Glad to see you are not MIA.
Here is a written description of a Pedersoli Sharps 45/70 chamber which came from Dick Trenk.
If you can convert the numbers to a graphic diagram, you will see that your chamber doesn't just 'end abruptly at the rifling'. But a chamber cast will (likely) be enlightening and useful.

Following is dimensions from our chamber reamer blueprint for 45-70 caliber. These are the nominal dimensions given to each rifle, with a mfr. tolerance of unspecified fore and aft change due to the obvious differences in how far the reamer is actually moved into each barrel. I would guess we control reamer depth by +.003" and -.000" .
Rim Dia. .618"
Rim width .070 (depth of rim seat)
Case dia at rim base .508
Case length 2.129 (includes .070 rim thickness)
Length of 45 deg angle .060
Diameter at rear of throat (at 45 deg angle) .4598
Length of throat .236
Diameter of throat at front .4578
Leade angle 1 deg. 30 min
Bore dia, .4500"
Groove dia .4580"

[HPT]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the input. Sorry I have not responded sooner but I had to go to Cozumel for awhile for some customer hand-holding and service.

OK. rifle data:

Pedersoli 1874 Sharps Silhouette Standard 45-70
Barrel length: 32”
Barrel twist: 1:18 in. RH, 6-groove .450 X .458


Load:

Rapine 460-500 bullet, sized to .460, Lyman 457125 sized .459, Lee 459-405 sized .460
GOEX 2F 65-68gr. .030 card wad
Modified Emmerts Lube, SPG, White Label Lube

I blow tube between shots-3 to 5 breaths. Shooting conditions here in Paradise range from 85-95 degrees with 50 to 90% humidity so we don't worry much about hot, dry conditions. And I do get a nice damp lube star at the muzzle. The leading I have noticed is more than flakes but less than streaks. After running wet 50/50 Ballistol/water patches through bore I can see definite leading 5-6 inches in front of chamber. I usually will soak the bore with Kroil at home and let it sit awhile before a thorough cleaning.

The load I'm using is my standard 45-70 load which produces no leading in a Numrich rolling block and M1888 Springfield.

I have not done a chamber cast on this rifle but by eyeball the chamber seems to abruptly end at the rifleing. No smooth transition like the rolling block has. I bought this rifle used and the previous owner stated he only shot two boxes of factory loads through it and the recoil was way too much for him. Maybe I just need to shoot it more to smooth it out or (horrors) put some J-word bullets down the pipe.


I have a Pedersoli Sharps Creedmoore #2 in .45-70 and have measured the chamber on mine. It is .4510/.4565 at the chamber and .4500/.4565 at the muzzle .

I got leading with Lyman 457125 and Lee 459-405 bullets sized .459 made of wheelweights. No leading with same bullets made from 20:1 or 30:1 and sized to .457 dia.

What alloy are you using?

[Don McDowell]

Quit using the Kroil in the bore. For what ever reason if its left in the bore it has a tendency to aggrevate the leading.
Try some pure gum spirits of turpentine on a patch and jag to remove the leading.

[SharpsShooter]

HPT and I have both suggested that the alloy is too hard for BP. I had a similar issue when using the 457125 cast of WW in my 75 Sharps. Flakes of lead, not nasty streaks were the norm. My problem cleared right up by going to 40:1. Accuracy with either was never an issue. Also, Pitch the SPG in the corner and use it for alloy flux. Bullshop has offered to send you a sample of his fine lube and I strongly suggest you accept his offer. You will not regret it.


SS

[Don McDowell]

The ww alloy isn't to hard for bpcr, but it contains a good bit more antimony than is helpful.
If you have some mix pure lead about 1/3 of the pot with the ww.

[SharpsShooter]

Don,

Thats true and I did not intend to imply that it was unusable. I've used a 50/50 mix with fine results as well. Straight WW were giving me the same issue of flaky leading.

SS

[Don McDowell]

SS in the last few years I've encountered that flaking with the ww alloys also. I think they're using abunch more antimony in them for a variety of reasons, and that's what's tending to cause alot of the flakes. Don't have that so much with the 20-1, and in my wifes roller not using Kroil in it and the leading has pretty much just disappeared. Since I quit using kroil in the other rifles as well , none of them are having leading problems like they were.

[Bullshop]

So then I take it you dont want to sample NASA?
BIC/BS

[montana_charlie]

Go ahead and try all of those ideas.
- Eliminate Kroil from the bore.
- Various alloy hardness.
- Alloys with, and without, antimony.
- More efficient bullet lube.
- Bullet seated to leave a grease groove exposed at the end of the brass.

If, after exploring all other avenues, you still have leading immediately ahead of the chamber, you might want to look at case length versus chamber depth.

In addition to the shortening of a new case when fired, and considering that a lot of new brass is not full length to begin with, you may have noticed - in that chamber description - that Pedersoli gives you (free of charge) an extra 29 thousandths of depth when they chamber the barrel.

CM

[Don McDowell]

So then I take it you dont want to sample NASA?
BIC/BS


If he don't want it, I'll give it a try.

[chuebner]

Gentlemen,

Thanks for all the input.

First off I'll do a chamber cast when I have a chance. My alloy can best be described as soft scrap and my cheapy Lee hardness tester shows my mix to be 12 BHN which is pretty soft. I guess I'll also take up Bullshop on his offer for a lube sample. His sprue plate lube works great on all my molds.

My basic load is the same for all my 45-70 rifles. Only difference is I size to .459 for the Numrich rolling block since this rifle slugged at .449 X .456. I guess I should say the other difference is cases. R-P for the rolling block, WW for the trapdoor and Starline for the Sharps.

I have no leading in the other two rifles but leading in the Sharps. The technician in me wants to know why. Accuracy is no problem, never has been.

charlie

[chuebner]

Since I quit using kroil in the other rifles as well , none of them are having leading problems like they were.

Hello Don,

I've used Kroil for years to help remove leading and am very surprised it can cause it. I've never encountered leading in my other rifles but then again they are milsurps shooting GC boolits whereas the 45-70's are shooting a PB boolit. Big difference. I'll try laying off it for awhile ans see if it makes a difference.

charlie

[Don McDowell]

Charlie give a go,and see what happens. I know after I read about folks having leading problems then quit using Kroil and the leading went away, I said hmmmmm.
Tried it
and they was right.

[Harpman]

I had same problem same gun etc...I went to 7-7.8 BHN and it stopped..12 is way too hard for 68 grains of regular goex , If the mix you have is not pure lead and tin, or the antimony and tin mix is so high it gives you 12 bhn, its not gonna obutrate quick enough, it will hesitate just a tad and in the pedersoli that just dont work..also there is nothing wrong with the Lee tester.