hog hunt need harder bullet

[tcrocker]

I went hog hunting yesterday a got one:smile:. I got the 200puonder at about 60yds in heavy brush. It made two or three steps and went down. the round did a good number on the heart and lungs, but did not pass through. It went from just behind the neck through the ribs went through the heart and lung and then hit the off side leg and went to peices. Fount the gas check and thats all no exit. I'm using a 1895gs in 45-70 with 464gr cast bullet made from ww. If I was to water drop them would this help or do I need to do something else?

[bisley45]

congrats on the hog and from what I have learned here water dropping will make them harder but there is probably someone here that can explain it better

[tcrocker]

I'm using 37gr of IMR 4198. If that helps eny.

[gon2shoot]

Made two or three steps and dropped, What, ya want it to get in the truck for ya? :holysheep

Shot angle, fps, boolit weight etc has a lot to do with penetration (sounds like what you're looking for).
If it works, dont fix it.

[No_1]

I am curious why you think you need a harder boolit. If your current boolit shatters now then maybe you need something a little softer. You are using a gas checked design so running it a little softer should not be adverse to your needs plus being a little softer would give some expansion and help prevent the bullet from breaking up. It does not have to exit the animal to kill it.

Robert

[dsmjon]

Sounds to me like he wants a harder boolit, b/c all he can find is the gas check. How many of us enjoy eating lead? Hmmm? raise your hand? K, thought so.. :)

[tcrocker]

My line of thinking is if the bullet comes apart it must need to be harder. I like to get a pass through. My milphat is .35 so expansion is no bid deal to me, i feel with the size of the bullet that should transfer alot of energe to take the beasts out. I got a deer last year it made a 2" hole in both sides. I'd like to do the same on hogs. The place I hunt is being over run with hogs this year and I'd like to thin them down.

[carpetman]

bisley45--"congrats on the hog and from what I learned here water dropping will make them harder. " Nah they get softer just like you do when you take a bath. Might make them more tender--but I doubt you'd notice any difference and getting a hog in water is difficult.

[tcrocker]

:bigsmyl2: ha ha ha good one

[Trifocals]

Two or three steps and down for the count. You can't ask for much better than that. Even "J" bullets can break up. If you want harder try water dropping or heat treating your WW bullets. After either of these treatments, your WW bullets will be harder but still ductile. Going to a harder alloy ie: linotype will give you harder bullets but they will likely shatter/fragment. IMHO, keep on doin' what you're doin'. If it's working why try to fix it? Congratulations on gett'n your hog. [smilie=l:

[anachronism]

I am curious why you think you need a harder boolit. If your current boolit shatters now then maybe you need something a little softer. You are using a gas checked design so running it a little softer should not be adverse to your needs plus being a little softer would give some expansion and help prevent the bullet from breaking up. It does not have to exit the animal to kill it.

Robert

This is my train of thought too. For what it's worth, it's not uncommon for a bullet of any construction to not penetrate completely on thick hided game. Many times the bullet will be found just under the skin on the off side. This is usually due to the hide stretching away from the animals body but not breaking, preventing the bullets escape. When you say that the bullet went to pieces, did it actually shatter, or is the gascheck all you found of the bullet?

[tcrocker]

I couldn't find eny of my bullet at all just some dust on the leg bone no exit at all. after it broke the off side leg it disapeared couldn't find eny lead at all just that little dust on the leg bone.

[Wayne S]

You can always try the milk jug experment, collect 10 1 gal milk jugs, fill them with water, , put 5 back to back, and shoot them with your air colled bullet, now shoot the other 5 with a bullet you either water quenced or heat treated. Not as good as balistic jell, but a hell of a lot cheaper and it will give you good idea of the effects of a harder bullet

[tcrocker]

thank I'll try that. I did do a red clay bank test it did well might be the bone?

[waksupi]

Dead is dead. I wouldn't mess with it.

[Dutch4122]

Try 50% Wheelweight (clip ons) and 50% Pure Lead (stick ons), water dropped from the mold. Let them set no more than 24 hrs before you install gas checks & run them through the lube-sizer.

Then let them sit at least a couple of weeks to harden; and 2 months is even better. The alloy hardness will stabilize around 20-22 BHN; but they will not be anywhere near as brittle as water dropped straight (clip on) wheelweight alloy.

I have personally had this alloy up to 2200 fps in my .444 Marlin with no leading. Accuracy is excellant in everything from plinking loads in the 1500-1800 fps range up to full snort hunting loads.

I learned about this alloy for hunting boolits from 45 2.1, BaBore, and 357Maximum. I have not killed an animal with this alloy yet; but they have many to their credit shooting 50-50 at everything from deer to bison.

Shoot them a PM if you don't believe me; but I think this alloy is the answer to your problem.

Hope this helps,:-D

[bisley45]

basely--"congrats on the hog and from what I learned here water dropping will make them harder. " Noah they get softer just like you do when you take a bath. Might make them more tender--but I doubt you'd notice any difference and getting a hog in water is difficult.

Man I had to read that 3 times to figure out what you were talking about. and I was talking about the booooolit but it does look like I ment the hog.:bigsmyl2:

[No_1]

If your boolit turns to dust when it hits bone then it is too hard. Try the 50/50 thing and I believe you will be much happier.

Robert

[DLCTEX]

I don't think the boolit turned to dust, but must have been turned by the bone and was lost in the stomach or elsewhere. I've hit rocks with WW boolits and they don't break up much. If they are water dropped then they are even tougher. I don't think they would be too hard water dropped, but as has been said, the results you got were not bad. If you want penetration, water drop. If you want expansion, use 50/50.

[357maximum]

Try 50% Wheelweight (clip ons) and 50% Pure Lead (stick ons), water dropped from the mold. Let them set no more than 24 hrs before you install gas checks & run them through the lube-sizer.

Then let them sit at least a couple of weeks to harden; and 2 months is even better. The alloy hardness will stabilize around 20-22 BHN; but they will not be anywhere near as brittle as water dropped straight wheelweight alloy.

I have personally had this alloy up to 2200 fps in my .444 Marlin with no leading. Accuracy is excellant in everything from plinking loads in the 1500-1800 fps range up to full snort hunting loads.

I learned about this alloy for hunting boolits from 45 2.1 and BaBore. I have not killed an animal with this alloy yet; but they have many to their credit shooting 50-50 at everything from deer to bison.

Shoot them a PM if you don't believe me; but I think this alloy is the answer to your problem.

Hope this helps,:-D


Read what Matt wrote above over a few times. YOU DO NOT NEED A HARDER BOOLIT. If you need anything :?: you need a TOUGHER/MORE MALLABLE boolit. The wd50/50 thing will do it for you.

wd50/50 flat out git r done.


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/DEC08062.jpg


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/recovered013.jpg


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/recovered040.jpg

[softpoint]

If I was using a boolit that heavy in my 45/70 for hogs, I'd use pure lead and paper patch it. If I didn't paper patch, I'd try a 50/50 mix of WW and pure lead and air cool it. If I didn't get excessive leading at that level, thats what I'd use. :mrgreen:

[357maximum]

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/recovered030.jpg

358-180 Larson FP retrieved fom a 140 yard anglin in brisket shot...recovered in the offside ribcage under the hide:

http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/Recovered.jpg


http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l80/357maximum/DEC08110.jpg

[Ken TN]

tcrocker,
Heck varmit hunters have long searched for the elusive 100% energy transfer round!
Less pelt damage to a hog is not really an issue...
You have found the perfect set up for hogs. Any time you can transfer 100% of the energy from a 45-70 into a hog you have done something.


357 Max,
Is that a 357 Max in the T/C with the deer?

I'm a long time fan and shooter of the 357 Max. I've got the Ranch Dog 359-190 to cast up for this years season.

Ken TN

[357maximum]

tcrocker,


357 Max,
Is that a 357 Max in the T/C with the deer?

I'm a long time fan and shooter of the 357 Max. I've got the Ranch Dog 359-190 to cast up for this years season.

Ken TN


All critters in them photos were taken with my MGM made 15 inch custom encore in 357Maximum with one 180- 200 grain cast boolit or another....most were with the Glenn Larson 358-180. My southern Michigan legal "PEESTOL" flat out gets r did. My longest shot was 240 ish yards...that would be the buck with the backhoe in the pic. All loads contained a big dose of Viht N-120 and a rem 7.5 sparkplug. All deer (I have shot a few does with it also) I have shot have been one shot bang/flops or 80 yard lung hit sprints O' death. I too am rather fond of the 357Maximum. [smilie=l:

[Dutch4122]

................ YOU DO NOT NEED A HARDER BOOLIT. If you need anything :?: you need a TOUGHER/MORE MALLABLE boolit. The wd50/50 thing will do it for you.



Couldn't have said it better myself.:mrgreen:

[Dale53]

357Maximum;
Those are NICE deer.

Tcrocker;
I agree with the above regarding 50/50 WW/pure lead. Just for the record, I MUCH prefer total penetration. Every now and then I have run into an animal that doesn't recognize that it is dead and runs off (even when well hit). A "through and through" ALWAYS leaves a nice blood trail for a quick "trail up". A more malleable bullet SHOULD penetrate better.

Congratulations on getting your hog, even with the "inferior" bullet:veryconfu

Dale53

[Lloyd Smale]

im of the other school of thought. Ive done a ton of penetration testing and a bullet that deforms, even a small ammount will suffer in penetration. a bullet casted to be maluable will deform. If your bullet deformed and didnt penetrate you need to go harder. Personaly im not a fan of water dropping. In our tests it has caused more fractured bullets then a bullet that is alloyed to get hardness. A good alloy for full power 4570s is 5050 ww/lino. Even strainght linotype will not fracture (at least it hasnt in penetration testing or on game as big as 1200 lbs for me) unless velocitys get over 2000 fps. the only bullets ive seen fracture were swcs cast of of water dropped ww. They tend to break off at the juction of the nose and first driving band. I did witness this happen at the linebaugh seminar to some lfns that were comercialy casted using water dropping too but it hasnt happened to any lfns ive casted. Pigs for there size can be a real test of penetration. Ive seen them stop just about every brand of jacketed handgun bullets. In my hunting experience there much tougher on bullets then even black bear. Another way to get around your problem is to back off a bit on velocity. A 405 at 1200-1500 fps will kill any animal on the planet if the alloy is right and you put the bullet where it belongs. Any faster then that and your really taxing any lead alloy.

[qajaq59]

Considering how far in that bullet went in I'd say that alloy is a winner. Congrats...
I hope I can do as well if I find a spot to hunt.

[leftiye]

Tin and/or copper will toughen a lead alloy. 50/50 lead /WWs heat treated or water dropped will expand well at 2000 - 2200 fps.. As you've said that you aren't looking for expansion, either straight wheelweights, or 50/50 will do 'er.

[tcrocker]

http://http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss8/crockerthomas/th_P1000404.jpg (http://s556.photobucket.com/albums/ss8/crockerthomas/?action=view&current=P1000404.jpg)Here is a pic of the beast. It was a joint kill acording to Katlin after I shot it and it was in the death throws she thought it would get up so she shot it with her 243win in the spine so I shot it and she killed it.:p

[O.S.O.K.]

From you're description, I agree that the boolit was somewhere in the guts and that's why you didn't find it.

I would leave well enough alone. I've got some 356 Winchester hunting loads made up that use a ww alloy (air cooled) boolit - 250 Saeco gc that I'm going to use without hesitation.

Plain old air cooled ww alloy makes a great hunting boolit alloy.

[LET-CA]

http://http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss8/crockerthomas/th_P1000404.jpg (http://s556.photobucket.com/albums/ss8/crockerthomas/?action=view&current=P1000404.jpg)Here is a pic of the beast. It was a joint kill acording to Katlin after I shot it and it was in the death throws she thought it would get up so she shot it with her 243win in the spine so I shot it and she killed it.:p

You married well, a wife who will hunt with you. Keep her around and buy her nice things every now and again!

[tcrocker]

I live in Alabama I'm wasn't born here. That's my daughter:redneck:

[chaos]

I dont agree that you need a softer bullet. I like 'em real hard and as fast as you can stand to drive them. I think you just missed the slug in the guts or somewhere or more than likely flat missed the exit hole.

I use water dropped slugs cast from straight wheel weights out of both a 44mag rifle and pistols on hogs. I have never, ever, not had a complete pass through. In fact, the only slug that I ever recovered had passed through one hog's head, the rump of another and bounced off a metal feeder leg behind them. Entrance is always about caliber size, exit is always about half the caliber size.

i have yet to find a mould that will cast proper size for my 45-70 out of straight wheel weights, or I'd be using it too.

I have not had a chance to chase any hogs in a year or so........ this working all the time SUCKS. loads range from 10 gr unique to full charges of 296........ 250-255 gr slugs. Me and my two boys taken more than a couple of them.



Straight wheel weights and water dropped for me.

[tcrocker]

Chaos I use a NEI mold that casts .460 works great in my Marlin just add lube , gas check and shoot.

[kelbro]

I have shot literally hundreds of hogs with jacketed or semi-jacketed bullets and have seen maybe two or three complete pass-throughs. No experience with cast yet but I am anxious to learn which alloy performs the best.

[anachronism]

One thing confuses me. If the bullet shattered, I would have expected to see it closer to the entrance would, than on the far side of the animal. The bullet would have slowed considerably by the time it reached the far side of the pig and would have been less likely to shatter at that point.

I think.

[Wayne Smith]

Let me get this straight, the boolit destroyed the heart/lung area, hit a bone at the nuckle, and probably turned and entered the body cavity. How do you want this changed? Just don't hit the bone at the joint and I don't think you will have any problem!

[HiVelocity]

Congrats on your hog. Sounds like sausage and ham for breakfast!

I'm not an expert by any means but it appears that your bullet did what it was supposed to (short of breaking apart).

I would suggest adding some linotype to your mix; maybe 15 to 1 and see how that works. It works well in my Marlin 357 levergun.

Just food for thought.................Mmmmmm, all I can think about now is BBQ!

HiVelocity:bigsmyl2:

[Blammer]

I think you need to kill a few more for a reliable test result.:bigsmyl2:

:bigsmyl2:

Hogs are tough critters, (hmm where have you heard that before [smilie=s: )

I'd say you had good results, that sure is a bruiser you have there.

I'd either change alloy as stated above, or kill another and then see what your results are. Change as you feel the need. :)

(oh yea, better bring the 243 along as a back up for the wounded ones.... :) )

[tcrocker]

Thanks for all the input I think that trying to get another one or two first would be the best ting to try first. God bless.