Newbie 45-70 Shooter and question

[wellfedirishman]

Hi All from a newbie 45-70 shooter.

I just acquired a very nicely restored Springfield Trapdoor in a trade, and took it out for the first time today. It shoots very well! I made some light loads using Trailboss and they shoot great. I was ringing the 200 yard gong consistently. I have to set the sight to the 2nd highest elevation setting to hit this gong. I also find the open sights somewhat hard to use, I much prefer a peep and globe sight setup.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm138/wellfedirishman/SpringfieldTrapdoor.jpg

So here is a question. I was looking at a H&R Buffalo Classic for a long distance gun, and for the price ($350 approx) it looks like a bargain, and has peep sights I like. I would really like a Sharps but they are anything from 3x to 5x the price of the Buffalo Classic.

So what do you all think? I want to shoot out to 300 yards regularly, 500 yards occasionally. I will probably never hunt with this setup, its just for gong/silhouette use.

Edited later to add:
What about putting one of these on the Springfield Trapdoor? The gun is already refinished, reblued, and nickled so it would not lose any collector value, and this looks period correct:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(rvottuuthxupmq454peudm45))/imgPart/rs-creed-5-e_1.jpg

This itself would solve both the elevation problem and improve my aim significantly.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[Mark Daiute]

Why not picking up a Buffington sight? Correct for the rifle, already corrected for drift and adjustable for windage. Must be pretty light loads you are using since I've had some loads that struck high at 300 yards... Certainly did not need the second highest setting.

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/TrapdoorSights.html

Best,

Mark

[725]

All depends on your personal interests, but you'll never go wrong with a Buff Classic.

[cajun shooter]

You are just starting to see what happens when you pick up one of these rifles and shoot it. Buy what sight helps you the most. You do not need a $500 soule sight to have fun. you might want to check with Track of The Wolf for a sight. The BC is a fun gun just as your trapdoor is. Your next step is to fill those cases with the real black powder. Don't stop and try pyrodex, triple 7, Shockley's gold, or any other want to be powder. Go straight to it!! You can then see how many questions you need answered. Welcome to the fun side of the shooting sports.

[wellfedirishman]

Thanks Guys for the info.

I looked at the Trapdoor Collector site, they do have one Buffington available, but my eyes work better with a close up peep. I have target rifles with a receiver mounted peep sight like an M1 Garand or AR-15, where the eye is an inch or so from it, and I can shoot pretty well with them.

Since you can't get a a receiver sight for the Trapdoor, a Tang sight is as close as I can find. I looked at TOTW (that's where I found the pic) and their prices seem very reasonable (65 or so + shipping).

How easy are the TOTW sights to install on the tang of the rifle? Is there a 'preferred' way of installing them? I don't see any sight base sold for the original Trapdoor, so I imagine that you have to drill carefully into the wood on its center axis, perpendicular to the tang.

I generally don't like to mess with historical rifles, but this is already messed with (to make it prettier, which it is) so the goal here is to make a more 'shootable' rifle for me.

Regarding black powder, I have never tried it. I understand that that there are handling precautions you have to take with it when loading. I generally load using a single stage press (Lee Turret) with a Dillon powder dispenser mounted on top.
Can I safely use modern black powder substitute (Pyrodex etc.) with it?

So far I have been pretty happy with Trailboss. I follow the manufacturers 'cowboy load' manual and use about 14 grains of TB with a 300 grain bullet, filling the case to just below where the seated bullet base will be. It is clean, dispenses well and is safe from what I have seen. Even a fully charged case only generates a light recoil so it is pretty hard to blow up your gun. I also use the same Trailboss 45-70 loads in my Contender pistol so I don't want to maintain 2 setups or different varieties of loads.

Thanks for the advice, it is much appreciated.

[Rick459]

i'm getting pretty good results with unique in my RB
Rick
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=59371

[Gunlaker]

Thanks Guys for the info.

I looked at the Trapdoor Collector site, they do have one Buffington available, but my eyes work better with a close up peep. I have target rifles with a receiver mounted peep sight like an M1 Garand or AR-15, where the eye is an inch or so from it, and I can shoot pretty well with them.

Since you can't get a a receiver sight for the Trapdoor, a Tang sight is as close as I can find. I looked at TOTW (that's where I found the pic) and their prices seem very reasonable (65 or so + shipping).

How easy are the TOTW sights to install on the tang of the rifle? Is there a 'preferred' way of installing them? I don't see any sight base sold for the original Trapdoor, so I imagine that you have to drill carefully into the wood on its center axis, perpendicular to the tang.

I generally don't like to mess with historical rifles, but this is already messed with (to make it prettier, which it is) so the goal here is to make a more 'shootable' rifle for me.

Regarding black powder, I have never tried it. I understand that that there are handling precautions you have to take with it when loading. I generally load using a single stage press (Lee Turret) with a Dillon powder dispenser mounted on top.
Can I safely use modern black powder substitute (Pyrodex etc.) with it?

So far I have been pretty happy with Trailboss. I follow the manufacturers 'cowboy load' manual and use about 14 grains of TB with a 300 grain bullet, filling the case to just below where the seated bullet base will be. It is clean, dispenses well and is safe from what I have seen. Even a fully charged case only generates a light recoil so it is pretty hard to blow up your gun. I also use the same Trailboss 45-70 loads in my Contender pistol so I don't want to maintain 2 setups or different varieties of loads.

Thanks for the advice, it is much appreciated.

One thing to realize with Trailboss is that the pressures are higher than you think. (Check out the Hodgdons online reloading guide.) The max load of Trailboss is significantly hifger pressure than a moderate load of something like SR 4759. (which is a smokeless powder that'd likely work very well in your rifle).

Nothing against Trailboss as I occasionally use it myself in .45-70 and .45 Colt, but the light recoil does not necessarily mean low pressure.

Chris.

[wellfedirishman]

Thanks Guys.

Rick, do you use any filler with the Unique loads? I use Unique in all my 38/357 and 45 loads and it is a great powder.

[Rick459]

wellfedirshman,
i use no fillers. i just upend the cartridge so the powder rest up against the flash hole before i insert the round into the chamber. so far that has worked well for me. yes unique is a great powder.

Rick

[mooman76]

I tried filler(COW) in mine and started seeing pressure issues some where around 14gr. so I sopped using filler. I also stopped using unique because I wasn't getting the accuracy I was looking for.

[Rick459]

I tried filler(COW) in mine and started seeing pressure issues some where around 14gr. so I sopped using filler. I also stopped using unique because I wasn't getting the accuracy I was looking for.

sorry to hear that unique didn't work out for you. i seem to be having better luck as this target shows. as for fillers in the .45/70 i stopped using them when friends of mine that did use a filler started ringing their chambers.
Rick
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=59371

[freedom475]

I think you would really like a powder like Varget in your trapdoor. As others have stated you can look at Hogdon and see that the pressures can be kept quite low while giving much higher velocity. This velocity can be taylored to match your sights just right for range.

You can certainly shoot smaller groups with the addition of a tang sight, But they do have there shortcomings as well.... Some of them being expensive, some of the cheap ones can't be removed easily, fragile, complex and hard to use in "low light".

If you taylor your load to match your sights you may find them to be just the ticket for silhouette/gong shooting. No need to keep cheat sheets for the complex tang adjustments.

Hope this helps and please keep us informed and more pictures...that a sweet looking rifle you have there!

[NickSS]

If you go with a tang sight get one with windage adjustments if you plan on hitting at longer ranges. To install one just drill into the wood and use a suitable wood screw. The sight must be vertical both laterally and for and aft. You can shim if necessary. If you want to get really fancy inlet a piece of steel into the top of the stock and drill and tap the steel for you tang sight. The steel should be epoxied and screwed to the stock. Overall a buffington sight works quite well and you can get used to its peep aperture fairly easily and the rifle will look authentic. I install one on a pedersoli infantry rifle and it improved my shooting over the plain open sights by 50% reduction in group size. As for loading 300 gr bullets are fine out to 200 or perhaps 300 yards but you will start having trouble further out. A 400 gr bullet will get you out to about 400 yards but to go further you really need to use a 500 gr or heavier slug. You also need to get your velocity to be around 1050 to 1150 fps to get to longer ranges as a minimum. As for smookless powders (i use both black and smokeless loads in mine) Unique will work for light plinking loads but does not do well at longer ranges. I use a lot of AA 5744 for several years now and it works well with all weights of bullets. Other good powders for long range are IMR 4198, IMR 3031. Black powder will give you the best accuracy once you get through leaning how to load it and find a load your rifle likes.

[montana_charlie]

Regarding black powder, I have never tried it. I understand that that there are handling precautions you have to take with it when loading. I generally load using a single stage press (Lee Turret) with a Dillon powder dispenser mounted on top.
Can I safely use modern black powder substitute (Pyrodex etc.) with it?
First you express concern over 'handling' black powder when loading, then you ask if you can use your Dillon measure for Pyrodex.

Different subjects with very different answers...

Most loaders set a powder measure to throw a certain weight of powder.
The metering chamber is adjusted to throw a 'volume' of powder that weighs the desired amount. So, while it is a 'volumetric measure', it is set according to weight.

We'll use that as the parameter for discussing your Dillon and the two powders in question.
We will also use '70 grains' as a charge weight, but you should understand that some brands of brass don't comfortably hold that much powder. It is very common to use BP charges in the 60 to 65 grain weight range when loading modern brass.

You can use the Dillon for charging cases with black powder.
BP can be loaded using all manner of 'primitive' tools, but it can also be run through modern measures with little regard for any difference between it and smokeless. About the only thing that you'll find that is unique to BP is that charges are usually 'settled' in the case by pouring through a long 'drop tube'...or by vibrating the case...and the charge is often compressed (after being 'settled') before seating the bullet. Neither of these two 'extra steps' have anything to do with using the Dillon to meter out the charges.

Pyrodex is designed to be measured 'volumetrically'...NOT by weight.
It is assumed that the shooter will use a tube-like measure marked in grains...the same tool used for muzzleloaders. A measure of this type sized for '70 grains' will throw a suitable BP charge...and it will throw an appropriate Pyrodex charge.
But, while the BP may weigh close to 70 grains, the Pyrodex will be substantially lighter than that weight.
A weighed charge of 70 grains of Pyrodex would be a dangerous overload.

If you filled your Dillon with black powder, and adjusted it to throw 70 (weighed) grains of BP, you could then use it to throw Pyrodex charges...because the volume of the metering chamber would be correctly set.
The Pyrodex charge would fill your case as full as the BP did, but would weigh considerably less.

The next 'objection' usually heard by those who are reluctant to use black powder has to do with 'clean up'.
Actually, cleaning the rifle is quite easy and straight-forward.
Cleaning the brass cases is a 'new skill' which must be learned...

CM

[bubba.50]

if you go to www.bpcrshooter.com in the menu you will see loading information. under that you can click on converting volume to weight for substitutes. takes a while to load on my computer. didn't copy all but here's list for 10gr. vol. to weight-blackhorn 10gr vol.=7.1gr,black mag 3 10gr vol=10.2, 3f trip.7 10gr vol=8.1, 2f 777 10 gr vol= 7.6, goex pinnacle 3f 10 gr vol=8.0, 2f 10 gr vol=7.5, pyrodex p 10gr vol= 7.5, rs/select 10grvol=7.2. just multiply by however many times 10 you need for your load. hope this helps, bubba.

[wellfedirishman]

Thanks All for the info and for the warning about Pyrodex weight. I didn't know that, so I am glad I asked.

Once I use up my batch of Trailboss I will get some BP and give it a try, obviously after reading up more on its use.

Overall, I have to say that these old guns rock. It is a lot more satisfying hitting gongs with a piece of history than with a polymer/aluminum ray gun :-)

I am seriously considering selling one of my ARs to get a nice Sharps...

[Trailblaster]

A buddy of mine has the Buffalo classic its a great shooter .I have an NEF 45/70 rifle and it is a fun gun to take out to the field. I Also have .223 REM barrel for it so I can go from one caliber to another using the same receiver.The 223 has the black synthetic stock and forearm the 45/70 has the full length manlicher type stock .

[Dave C]

Here are my favorite loads for my trapdoor.
The 3031 load should be considered a maximum trapdoor load but it performs extremely well in my gun.

385gr Lyman cast bullet 39 gr 3031 (Best performance and good hunting load)

I think just about everyone knows about the 10-11 grains of unique loading for trapdoors. It works well for a target and plinking load and even a light hunting load.. I don't use wadding or filler but do use magnum primers when loading unique and have had zero misfires in 100's of rounds.

I have had NO luck with black powder.
I have tried every combination of bullet weight and powder configuration and spent most of 2 paychecks trying to get black powder to shoot accurately.
Someone knows how to do it but I am not one of them.
I finally washed my hands of it and gave up on black powder after about $500 worth of experiments (I have a nice collection of 45 bullet molds and sizing dies now LOL!
My advice is stop trying as soon as you find something that shoots well.
(I should have quit with my 3031 load which is pretty awesome and saved the time, cash and energy I wasted on black powder) If it aint broke don't fix it!

Another load that worked REALLY well was 60 grains of Pyrodex "P" grade (By volume) with a 405 Gas check bullet (Gas check brings the weight up to 415 Grains)
This load was THE most accurate load I have ever fired out of my trapdoor, Cloverleafing at 100 yards.
I was impressed. Without the gas check but with the same bullet the accuracy was lousy.
The downside is that Pyrodex is much more corrosive than even black powder and needs to be cleaned immediately and brass cases thrown into a vinegar and water solution the same day or they corrode terribly overnight.
It shoots great but is not worth the cleaning hassle in my opinion.

If you go for the BC I am working on loads for a Pedersoli Sharps that is much stronger than a trapdoor.
My current pet load for that rifle is 39.5 grains of H322 behinds 415 grain Lyman Gas check.
A lot of punch but still in the pressure range for the sharps.
I know guys shooting 51 grains of H322 out of Pedersoli's but I am not one of them.
It seems a bit much although the guns seem to hold up to it.
I started at 47 grains and it beat the snot out of me. Backed it off to 44 and it still beat me up.
I settled at 39.5 grains now and it is still stout but tolerable.
I don't recommend that for your trapdoor however.
And that in a nutshell is all my experience with 45-70 loads except for some low powered round ball loads I pop in a case with a small amout of powder for just fun plinking sometimes.

Also the sight you posted looks like an Italian made sight.
I have one almost identical to it.
It works, it holds zero but looks rather fragile. I have the tall one and wish I had bought the shorter one honestly.
I do plan on replacing that sight eventually with a sturdier one but for $65 or $70 they do the job.
I am still learning so take my advice for what you paid for it. ;)