8mm question

[BigDaddie]

FYI: Rifle is M48A that I got packed in cosmo (unissued condition) - bore is mint++

I have a lee .323" 175gn mould that consistently drops bullets at .326" using my hard antimonied pb alloy.

I have tried them sized and GC'd to .323" using the lee lubrisizing die with varget. I get quite good groups at 100m with no leading evident with LLA as lube.

I was thinking about trying them as cast with the GC pushed on by hand ( i usually give it a light tap with my mini rubber mallet) in this rifle. The load will be 16gn 2400. The bore slugs to .323" with an excellent throat with no wear.

Would this size be OK in this cartridge and with this load? I'm planning to get into pan lubing soon as I have a good supply of beeswax and paraffin so will probably end up making something along the lines of the Saeco green.

I'm also on the hunt for another mould to use with this cal in our service rifle shoots...these go out to 500m.


Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers,

BD

[Buckshot]

...............Pan lubing and loading 'as cast' at .326" (my, that's a FAT Lee :-)) would be okay of it will chamber and still have room to release the boolit. For 500 meters you're gonna want a nice 200 gr slug. Better check with CBE.

http://www.fototime.com/4081B75BF8E1589/standard.jpg

The above are my 4 Turkish Mausers. Top is a M88/35, next down is a M38, then a M38/46. On the bottom is a M38 I cobbled into what I thought would have been a great carbine for the Turks. Come to find out they actually DID make something like this, but I'd never seen one:-)

When these rifles first hit the shore I was VERY skeptical and wasn't too interested. A local place had the M38's on sale for $69 and the idea of buying a high powered centerfire rifle for $69 was just too much and I caved in. I should have bought more! The M88, M38, and the M38/46 all have excellent barrels and are superlative shooters. The M88 is especially so.

http://www.fototime.com/ADF9F422ACC2AA7/standard.jpg

Several years ago I had Lee do a custom mould, which is the boolit on the left. It weighs 236grs. The one on the right has been sized to .314". That boolit over 54.0grs of TCCI 5020 surplus ball (50 bmg powder) does 1950 fps and is so accurate I'd use it in our weekly offhand competition. A bit abusive, but VERY accurate.

I was also very surprised to find that these 3 Turks had a tight enough throat that cast boolit's sized .324" would scrape, or get pushed back into the caseneck. They all wanted them sized .323" and shot them great at that size.

...............Buckshot

[BigDaddie]

It sure it a fat Lee. I thought I was seeing things too! :holysheep

I cast a few with it before taking it thru the Leementing process....these were also .326" but required pounding++ on the hinge bolt to release. After Leementing it was a real please to cast with and still measured out at .326"

I can get them to seat appropriately and just engrave the rifling and still mag cycle.

Here's a pic of the rifle attached

[madsenshooter]

Pretty rifle, the color reminds me of some of the Italian walnut that Krag rifles were stocked with circa 1900-1902. That varied, but many were orange like yours.

[BigDaddie]

Thanks. I believe it is some form of european elm that they stock these rifles with. It sure has a coarse grain that u could never fill. Perfect for a rough finished milsurp though!

THis pic maybe shows it better. It looks kinda like oak.

Anyway, I would really like to be using it in service matches. Would the Lyman 323470 (.324") be a good boolit to use? Would it have any limitations for the kind of shooting I'm looking to do with it???? From what I have read and responses so far, the heavier boolit are better for longer ranges in this sort of rifle...is that right.

Ive managed to get a reasonable group at 100m with it using the Lee 8mm boolit with varget (AR2208 here) I'm looking to not re-invent the wheel too much so if any of you out there have something that works well in your 8x57, please let me know.

cheers,

BD

[bcp477]

Carpathian Elm, to be exact.

[StarMetal]

Nobody knows for sure what the wood on those rifles are. Even Dennis Krebbs, who runs Empire Arms, isn't positive and I'd venture to say he knows more then any of us. I have one unissued too and at the time I got mine the stock was said to be Teak or Oak. I can tell you it's sure not Walnut.

I use the Lee 175 sized to .325. I have a Williams receiver sight on mine and all I'm going to say is it shoots some mighty small groups at 100 yards. I think these are/were one of the best deals out there.

Joe

[bcp477]

Hmm.....nobody knows ? How about the people who MADE them ? You could try reading a book. It's called "Serbian and Yugoslavian Mausers" by Branko Bogdanovich. The gent works for Zastava, which used to be the state-owned enterprise which MADE the M48 series rifles. Among other duties, he is one of the factory historians. He has made it quite clear that the woods used for such rifle stocks were Walnut (but only the first 10 - 20,000 M48's.....as walnut was in short supply, at that time)..... and after that, CARPATHIAN ELM. So, the vast majority of M48-series rifles have carpathian elm stocks, period. Sorry, but I'd venture that Branko, who is by the way a very nice guy, would know a wee bit more than Dennis Krebbs. Oh and as well, there was NEVER any TEAK or OAK used by the Yugoslavs for gunstocks. That is a complete MYTH. In any case, the rifle in BigDaddie's photos is stocked in ELM.

Many of the earlier series Yugo Mausers, now known as "24/47's" still have walnut stocks. The 24/47's were originally manufactured from 1928 - 1941....all with walnut stocks. The rifle were re-arsenaled, beginning in 1948, and refurbished and altered slightly, to the "24/47" pattern. All of the serviceable walnut stocks were reused. The NEW stocks needed at that time, to replace damaged ones, were made from walnut, until the supply dwindled....and then, CARPATHIAN ELM. The refurbishment program continued through much of the 1950's, after which, the 24/47's were mostly stored as war reserve equipment.

So, as for the Yugo Mausers floating around on the market, virtually ALL are stocked with either Walnut (quite a small proportion) and (the vast majority) Carpathian Elm. The majority of 24/47's have walnut stocks, the minority, elm. The opposite is true of the M48-series rifles. It is easy to tell the difference, as the grain of walnut and elm look nothing alike. I say "virtually all" because there is only one exception. Mitchell's Mausers has been importing a newly produced (by Zastava), carbine version of the M48, they call "M48 tanker". These are NEW production rifles, not milsurp. They are stocked in BEECH.

[StarMetal]

Hmm.....nobody knows ? How about the people who MADE them ? You could try reading a book. It's called "Serbian and Yugoslavian Mausers" by Branko Bogdanovich. The gent works for Zastava, which used to be the state-owned enterprise which MADE the M48 series rifles. Among other duties, he is one of the factory historians. He has made it quite clear that the woods used for such rifle stocks were Walnut (but only the first 10 - 20,000 M48's.....as walnut was in short supply, at that time)..... and after that, CARPATHIAN ELM. So, the vast majority of M48-series rifles have carpathian elm stocks, period. Sorry, but I'd venture that Branko, who is by the way a very nice guy, would know a wee bit more than Dennis Krebbs. Oh and as well, there was NEVER any TEAK or OAK used by the Yugoslavs for gunstocks. That is a complete MYTH. In any case, the rifle in BigDaddie's photos is stocked in ELM.

Many of the earlier series Yugo Mausers, now known as "24/47's" still have walnut stocks. The 24/47's were originally manufactured from 1928 - 1941....all with walnut stocks. The rifle were re-arsenaled, beginning in 1948, and refurbished and altered slightly, to the "24/47" pattern. All of the serviceable walnut stocks were reused. The NEW stocks needed at that time, to replace damaged ones, were made from walnut, until the supply dwindled....and then, CARPATHIAN ELM. The refurbishment program continued through much of the 1950's, after which, the 24/47's were mostly stored as war reserve equipment.

So, as for the Yugo Mausers floating around on the market, virtually ALL are stocked with either Walnut (quite a small proportion) and (the vast majority) Carpathian Elm. The majority of 24/47's have walnut stocks, the minority, elm. The opposite is true of the M48-series rifles. It is easy to tell the difference, as the grain of walnut and elm look nothing alike. I say "virtually all" because there is only one exception. Mitchell's Mausers has been importing a newly produced (by Zastava), carbine version of the M48, they call "M48 tanker". These are NEW production rifles, not milsurp. They are stocked in BEECH.

bcp,

I stand corrected then. I appreciate your input. I could tell by the grain on mine that is surely wasn't walnut. I do some woodwork and oak is one of my favorites and I could tell it wasn't exactly oak either. The grain is too straight for walnut. The wood is very hard, much harder then walnut. It has more grain then beech would have. Looking at some samples on the internet my stock resembles them closely.

Thanks
Joe

[BigDaddie]

Nobody knows for sure what the wood on those rifles are. Even Dennis Krebbs, who runs Empire Arms, isn't positive and I'd venture to say he knows more then any of us. I have one unissued too and at the time I got mine the stock was said to be Teak or Oak. I can tell you it's sure not Walnut.

I use the Lee 175 sized to .325. I have a Williams receiver sight on mine and all I'm going to say is it shoots some mighty small groups at 100 yards. I think these are/were one of the best deals out there.

Joe

Thanks Joe. Out of interest, what did your bore slug to?

I have a mojo sight for this rifle although I found that I shoot better with the issued sights. Probably need to practice some more I think.

[Buckshot]

...............BigDaddie, you really do want a heavier slug for that longer range stuff. Better wind bucking and a better ballistic coefficient too. The Lyman 323470 is lighter then the Lee.

http://www.fototime.com/95526EC254D5D0C/standard.jpg

I also have the Lyman 323470, just no picture of it. Naturally that Lyman 323471 has been discontinued for some years now. Saeco makes a nice looking 190gr bore rider. YOu do have Jim there at CBE, in OZ and you might check with them to see what they have in that flavor.

...............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Thanks Joe. Out of interest, what did your bore slug to?

I have a mojo sight for this rifle although I found that I shoot better with the issued sights. Probably need to practice some more I think.

My groove slugged out dead on .324

Joe

[bcp477]

My groove slugged out dead on .324

Joe

0.324" ?? That's interesting, because it should be around 0.323". That means your M48 has rifling cut excessively deep (it couldn't be from a worn barrel.....as the rifling won't get DEEPER from use, but shallower....with the BORE size enlarging). Anyway, no matter.....but you will likely need cast bullets more like 0.325" in diameter.....for a 0.324" groove diameter.

One other thought, specific to the M48. That is what I shoot exclusively, at this point, so I have lots of experience with them. A bullet weight in the 190 - 200 grain range would seem to be optimal, especially for a cast slug, in my opinion. Much heavier than that, such as the 236 grain "Karabiner" bullet, for example, will tend to be too LONG to chamber well in these rifles. I know that some have gotten them to work OK, but I never could. That really looong bullet had to be seated so deeply into the case, just to not exceed the max. 3.25" COL requirement, that I never did get satisfactory results with them. I shoot a bullet of 170 - 175 grains now, myself, which works out perfectly. I have intention to try some 190's, but paper-patched, as I do my "regular" bullets. But, do bear in mind that, stating the obvious, the heavier the bullet, the longer it will have to be - and there is a limit as to what will work well. Generally, you don't want a bullet so long that you will have to seat the bullet base below the case neck, as is necessary with the Karabiner bullet.

[BigDaddie]

Well I may be in a bit of strife now. I managed to get a whole bunch of wooden dowel and slug stuck fast in this barrel. I have another thread running asking for help...... I have a spare 8x57 long chambered lothar walther barrel lying around but I wont be game enough to slug the thing given what has just happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bcp477]

Did you lube the slug ? Does the dowel fit the bore closely ? If so, it should be a simple matter of pounding out the stuck slug/ dowel. If not, it's a bit more difficult.....and you'll have some cleanup to do after.....but still not a cause for panic. If I were you, at this point, I'd try to remove the dowel, even if you have to break it..... then pound the whole mess out, using a NEW section of dowel that fits the bore closely. As long as you don't make any contact of steel on steel with the barrel/ bore..... there is no possibility of damage. I know, it seems scary, but wood and lead won't damage your barrel - so pound away. You'll probably have lead streaks/ bits left in the barrel, but that will clean up without too much fuss.

One small tip : When slugging a barrel, always use a plastic or leather mallet to do the pounding - that way, no possibility of "accidents" with a steel hammer.

[mike in co]

lube the bore, lube the slug, slug should be of soft lead.
a neat trcik is to fill a case full of leadright to the top. get the slug into the bore past the chamber, chamber the leaded case, and then push the slug back to the case, and tap it a few times to expand it up to full throat and bore size. remove the case, tap out the slug

mike in co

[SharpsShooter]

Well I may be in a bit of strife now. I managed to get a whole bunch of wooden dowel and slug stuck fast in this barrel. I have another thread running asking for help...... I have a spare 8x57 long chambered lothar walther barrel lying around but I wont be game enough to slug the thing given what has just happened!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sorry to hear of your difficulties. Some good advice above. I'll add to go slowly and you will be ok. I once drove a .462" slug down what turned out to be a .453 bore diameter. it was a bit tough to but you know I think it was the best measurement slug I'd even done.

On topic for a long range 8mm boolit, you might try to locate a 8MM Max mould. They are not in current production at present. At least I haven't found one to point you towards. Cast of wheel weight alloy, it weighs 250 grains and would not be a bad choice for reaching out a bit. My K98 shoots the very well and I am confident it would be a good choice for game as well One of the members here shot a buffalo in the neck and it dropped dead right there, breaking it's neck and fracturing three adjoining vertebrae.

Here it is ...

http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r255/SharpsShooter_photos/8mmMax.jpg


SS

[WineMan]

I jammed a dowel in a handgun barrel and eventually managed to scratch the barrel trying to drill (by hand) the sucker out [smilie=b:. To do it again I would soak the thing in penetrating oil for days if needed and use a brass rod to try to tap it out. My problem was that I had two sizes of dowels and I grabbed the larger one by mistake. It was tight but I thought I could pound it down a 6" pistol barrel. Wrong! Take your time and heavy on the oil will probably get it out.

Wineman

[BigDaddie]

THanks fellas. You can see the thread regarding the jammed up bore under the "military rifles" section.

Sharpshooter, I wonder why that bullet is not recommended for the M48A (as per the diagram) which is what this rifle is? THey shoot the heavy J-boolits well ~200gn.

[SharpsShooter]

Sharpshooter, I wonder why that bullet is not recommended for the M48A (as per the diagram) which is what this rifle is? THey shoot the heavy J-boolits well ~200gn.

If I recall, there was concern about the borerider nose being too large for the throat, mking you have to seat it deep in the case in order to chamber the loaded round. My K98 would not accept them, so I had a nose sizer made to reduce it to .316" to the first driving band and presto! it works!

SS

[StarMetal]

If I recall, there was concern about the borerider nose being too large for the throat, mking you have to seat it deep in the case in order to chamber the loaded round. My K98 would not accept them, so I had a nose sizer made to reduce it to .316" to the first driving band and presto! it works!

SS

I have a Yugo 48B and I can load any 8mm bullet spoke of here and not have the base go past the neck shoulder junction....which pleases me. Some 48's have short throats/freebore. Mine doesn't.

Joe