WWII Surplus 4831

[MakeMineA10mm]

OK, I've read about a million times how Hodgdon started off selling surplus 4831 after the war (the big one) for $1/lb.

I've also done a lot of reading, studying, and loading of 30-06 for the Garand, and in addition to the advice on these gas-operated rifles to stick to 4064/4895 burning speed powder (certainly never anything slower than 4320), there is the historical anecdote about the 308 coming about because someone peered down a 30-06 case in the arsenal one day (before the bullet was put on) and realized there was all that unused space in there, so why not shorten the case...

So, that leads me to my question:

If 4831 is a WWII military surplus powder, what the hell caliber did the military load with it?!?!?

It's too slow for the 30-06; it's far too fast for the 20mm; and the only thing left is the 50BMG. It seems pretty fast-burning for the 50, but that's the only thing left I can think of that they would load that speed of powder for... (That could explain why there was such a stockpile of it too. 50s take more powder to begin with, and considering aircraft MGs, vehicle-mounted MGs, the AAA units switching over from 37mm to 50-cal towards the end of the way, etc., and I'd bet that almost as much 50-cal ammo was fired during the war as 30-06... No wonder we won!! ;) )

Anyway, that's my guess, but I'd love to hear if anyone KNOWS what the facts are.

[Lloyd Smale]

just a guess but id say springfields

[870TC]

Not sure what the military used it for. It's the only powder I use for 30-06 and 270 w/J bullets. Also use it in the 348 Win with gas checked bullets.

[higgins]

My NRA Handloader's Guide, copyright 1969, includes an article by E.H. Harrison entitled "Handloader's Smokeless Rifle Powders", which is a rundown of powders from various sources available at the time. In the section subtitled "Current IMR powders" appears a table that lists IMR 4831 as having been made for 20mm Oerlikon, which I think was an anti-aircraft gun. Although it is listed as an IMR powder, it was not at that time listed as a current canister powder, but was available from Hodgdon as surplus. The table lists many old IMR powders, not just the ones available at the time to handloaders. Harrison was the American Rifleman Senior Technical Advisor, so I would consider him an authoritative source. In looking through my old manuals trying to find an answer to this question, I found a letter I sent to Hodgdon in 1985 asking for guidance on the difference in burning rate between the newly manufactured H4831 vs the surplus H4831. I got a response written in longhand by Bruce Hodgdon; I probably need to frame that.

You'll probably get a few of these "I read here" responses, so if they don't get to the source, I would email Hodgdon and ask them.

[lylejb]

from wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon


This gun used a 400-grain (26-gram) charge of IMR 4831 smokeless powder to propel a 2000-grain (130-gram) projectile at 2800 feet (850 meters) per second.[2]

OUCH....how would you like to load for that one:shock:

[odoh]

+1 Higgins post but unable to recall my source. However thats the story that came w/the 1# paper bags of surplus that were given to me. I probably remembered it because I didn't have a clue what an Oerlikon was and how to pronounce it. It didn't even look American. Gimme a break ~ that was a long long while ago

[Cactus Farmer]

"This gun used a 400-grain (26-gram) charge of IMR 4831 smokeless powder to propel a 2000-grain (130-gram) projectile at 2800 feet (850 meters) per second."

I want one of those in semi aaauto please!!!

[beagle]

Yep! The Orlikon or Hispano Suizo series of 20mm cannons.

This ammo was reproduced during VN for use by the VNAF A-1 Skyraiders but I think this time around, they used ball powder.

Bought many paper bags of old 4831 out of a keg in the back of the gunshp at $.40 a pound. Doubled bag of course./beagle

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well thank you very much. That is an itch I've been trying to scratch for some time, considering my interest in military history and handloading.

20mm Oerlikon. Makes sense. As I now think about it, that shell has less of an overbore condition, which means it would have worked better with a slightly faster powder than I presumed it was loaded with. Means 4831 makes perfect sense.

[madsenshooter]

Then what was the 50 cal MG loaded with? I pulled one down sometime ago that my belly turret gunner uncle brought home with him from gunnery school. It sat live in my grandma's knicknack cabinet for 60 years. Talk about dry powder! The inside of the case had apparently pulled all the moisture out of the powder as it was all green and the powder was very dry sticks along with quite a bit that had turned to dust.

NEVERMIND, I JUST REMEMBERED THE US MILITARY STUFF IN THE BACK OF COW. 5010

[gnoahhh]

Yes, I too went through a huge pile of surplus 4831 back in the 60's. We loaded .30/06 cartridges by sizing, re-capping and then dipping the case in a small cardboard drum of 4831, strike off the excess level with the case mouth, and seat/crunch a 150 gr. bullet. Worked like a charm. We were under the impression that one couldn't get enough of that surplus 4831 in an '06 case to go overboard in pressure. Seemed ok back then, don't know if the modern cannister grades are so forgiving.My dad and I must have fired thousands of those loads in various Springfields. Darned accurate, and killed more than a few deer.

[wiljen]

Then what was the 50 cal MG loaded with? I pulled one down sometime ago that my belly turret gunner uncle brought home with him from gunnery school. It sat live in my grandma's knicknack cabinet for 60 years. Talk about dry powder! The inside of the case had apparently pulled all the moisture out of the powder as it was all green and the powder was very dry sticks along with quite a bit that had turned to dust.

NEVERMIND, I JUST REMEMBERED THE US MILITARY STUFF IN THE BACK OF COW. 5010

IMR 5010 during wwII later with wcc860,870,871,872 as well.

[Ricochet]

In about the 1977-9 era I saw an article in the American Rifleman about DuPont introducing newly manufactured IMR 4831. It said the original application was WWII 20mm guns. Differences in the burn rates of the new stuff and the old surplus Hodgdon 4831 were noted and explained as due to changes in the burn rate of the old stuff from aging.

[AKtinman]

Here is a photo of an Oerlikon 20mm aboard the first Coast Guard cutter I was stationed on in 1966.

http://www.fototime.com/29DE2903A2FC254/standard.jpg

The cartridges were lubed by hand with vaseline and loaded into the drum magazine and then a special wrench was used to apply pressure to the magazine spring for proper feeding.

Not a high rate of fire, but lots of fun.

I was stationed on the same ship again in 1972, and the 20mm’s had been replaced by the .50 BMG.

The local gun shop sold 4831 in paper bags for $1.00 per pound, though they preferred you bring in your empty can for refill. The lawyers would have a field day with that one today!

[451whitworth]

my father bought alot of that surplus 4831 powder back in the day. i still have two Hodgdon cans of it from him and it shoots just fine.

[Bad Water Bill]

$65.00 shipped 2 cardboard cylinders of 4831 to my front door back then. But back then that was also a few days pay.

[DLCTEX]

I bought 23 pounds of it from a widow last year for $50. She said her husband had used it for years and he had been gone for 25 years (the original cardboard container said 50 lbs.). It works great in 257 Wby. , 7mm mag., 300 Win. and more. Another guy was going to give her $50 until he found out it was old. Good deal for me.

[76 WARLOCK]

I used to buy it in unlabeled 1 gallon cans in the 60's. Also, I used the 57mm recoilless rifle in the late 60's that had a powder that sure looked like 4831. The 57mm round was a brass shell that was perforated with about 1/2" holes all over it and the powder was inside a plastic bag inside the brass.

[oksmle]

Last deer season I used the last of my Grandad's 1950 era surplus 4831. Managed to load 20 cases of .30-30 with 33.0 grs of 4831 behind a Lyman #311284 FP @ 210 grs. They move out about 1850 fps. Got 3 deer & have 17 cartridges left for this year. I remember as a kid when my Uncle & Grandad bought 5 or 6 25 lb containers for about .25 cents a pound. They used nothing but cast boolits in their rifles & pistols & believed if you couldn't work up a load with either 4831 or Unique it wasn't worth messing with. It took me almost 60 years of shooting 'til I realised they were more right than wrong....
oksmle

[NoDakJak]

In 1963 or 64 I split a hundred pound keg of 4831 with two other lads. Most of my share was shot in a 243. If I remember correctly the load was 47 grains behind a Sierra 85 gr HPBT and was a pretty stiff load. We were jump shooting Jackrabbits. There were so many that in eighteen months my barrel looked like a piece of sewer pipe. I also dip charged many hundreds of 3006 rounds and seated 150 grain Sierra flatnosed 30-30 bullets for use on Jackrabbits. I can't remember where we got the load data but it was probably Hodgdon. It stated that with the max amount of 4831 that could be loaded into a 30-06 case that the pressure behind a 150 grain jacketed slug was only 38,000 psi. The max that I could get into my cases was slightly more than two grains less than their charge so it must have been a safe load. It wasn't particularily accurate im my Springfield sporter but it certainly was effective on those rabbits. I still have about a half a pound of that batch left and also an unopened can of 5010. Neil

[Char-Gar]

Back in the late 50's an early 60's I used allot of Hodgdon powder because it was cheap. He also sold WWII surplus 4895 which was used to load the 30-06 Garand round, and the original Ball C and I am not certain who the govt. used that for, but I sure burned allot of it.

[hydraulic]

I still have a steel lined wooden box that an old friend bought from Hogdon, years ago. He used it until he passed away in 2001. I bought it from the widow when it still had about 6 or 8 inches of 4831 in the bottom. I'm down to about 6 lbs, now, and I load 41 grs. under the Lee 200 gr bullet in my M1. It's dark out now or I'd go take a picture. Can't remember what it says--I took a flashlight out to the garage and read the print on the box. "150 lbs 4814 for (indistinct) calibre AP and tracer ammo." Dated 1941. I don't know what 4814 was, but it was bought as 4831. Maybe Hogdon used surplus boxes of any description for shipping.

[buck1]

Dad told me years agoit was used in the BIG guns on the WWII era ships.

[kgoodrich]

ok being as you guys have an idea about the old powders do any of you have any clue to the reload data for m1 garand 30-06 with imr1185 ive been serching and serching for a long time and cant find anything at all on it.

[Echo]

The Oerlikon/Hispano was the standard 20mm on both sides, used on surface ships and tank-busting airplanes.

(And the Bofors 40mm was the standard on both sides, too)

[pdawg_shooter]

I burnt many, many lbs. of the old H4831 back in the day. It had a distinctive smell when burnt that I came to identify with shooting. The new stuff does NOT have the same smell, darn it.

[azcruiser]

During 1943 just one plant produced 206.700.000 rounds of 30-06 per month .That used 1.476.430 pounds of powder or one 50.000lb railroad freight car per day . Another plant the smallest in operation made 1.2000.000 rounds of 50 bmg daily or 43.000 lbs of powder per day
The pulp used to make powder was called Purayonier it came in 500 to 600 lbs rolls. Guess when the war stopped there became a surplus of powder pretty fast

[MakeMineA10mm]

ok being as you guys have an idea about the old powders do any of you have any clue to the reload data for m1 garand 30-06 with imr1185 ive been serching and serching for a long time and cant find anything at all on it.

I had not heard of IMR-1185 until you posted your question here, so I googled it, and found the following information from various sites (many of which are no longer in existence, but that Google has conveniently cached for us...):


Post subject: Re: Which rifle powder is closest to the powder used in WW1 for30-06?

A little further info, mostly in regards to .30-06 match ammo. Pyro DG powder was used thru 1919. In 1920, IMR 17 1/2 was used. In 1921, IMR 1076. From 1922 to 1924, HiVel 2 powder. From 1925 to 1927, IMR 1147. In 1928, IMR 1185 was used. In 1929 and 1930, IMR 1186 was used. In 1931 they switched back to IMR 1185, and stayed with it thru 1940 when it was replaced with IMR 4895. The pre-war Palma and International ammo sometimes used a different powder than regular match ammo. Alot of precision load development was taking place in the 20's and 30's. The first year that a 172gr 9 degree BT bullet was used in match ammo (later designated M72) was 1925. -- Don

From US Army Ordnance School text, January, 1942:

Cal. .30propellants. - IMR 1185 (Improved Military Rifle). - This powder is no longer standard for loading cal. .30 ammunition. It is found in the cartridges, ball, M1; A.P., M1; and in early lots of tracer M1. It is a nitrocellulose powder containing powdered tin or tin salts and coated with graphite which gives it a black, shiny appearance. The powder is cylindrical in form and has a single perforation through its long axis.

From what I could gather (which included no reloading data), 1185 sounds like it was not hugely agreeable with the M1 Garand. Sounds like it was one of the early IMR powders that the Ordnance Corps switched to in the mid-20s through the 30s, but then dumped in 1940 when 4895 came along. I know I've read somewhere about the reason the military disliked the early IMRs (although they were apparently better than the prior "smokeless" powders, such as Pyro D.G.), but I can't remember where right now.

You might want to look in old Handloader magazines and in Hatcher's Book of the Garand for more info. Those two sources are jumping out in my memory.

Couple things we know for sure:
1) If you have a usable quantity of that powder, be wary of it's age, because it looks like none of it has been made since the 1930s.

2) The Garand was not in wide-spread issuance while 1185 was being loaded, so it looks more like it's an '03 Springfield powder than an M1 Garand powder (though it should work in the Garand, if you could just find the right load...).

Lastly, those tin salts bother me. Anytime I see the word salts, I think corrosive. Not in the traditional sense, but more in the "if you don't clean it quick after firing, the salts deposited in the bore will attract moisture, which then can corrode your barrel."

[atr]

when I started reloading in high school I bought a 20 lb keg of 4831 for next to nothing..
used it for loading my 30-06 bolt action,,,,,great stuff ! wish I had another keg at that price !

[leadman]

Info I have gathered from reading the old (1930-1970) American Rifleman magazines is the tin had a tendency to coat the bore and cause accuracy problems. This along with the cupro-nickel bullets led to the use of ammonia to clean the bores. Unless I had a very large amount of 1185 I think I would turn it into fertilizer.

[rintinglen]

4831 was the first powder I ever loaded! A friend's Dad showed me how to reload on his Pacific C press, and of course it was a 30-06, and in 1970 surplus 4831 was still widely used, he had a green metal (?) drum that might have been about 3 gallon-sized, about half full of it.

[Char-Gar]

Info I have gathered from reading the old (1930-1970) American Rifleman magazines is the tin had a tendency to coat the bore and cause accuracy problems. This along with the cupro-nickel bullets led to the use of ammonia to clean the bores. Unless I had a very large amount of 1185 I think I would turn it into fertilizer.

In the mid-20s, Frankford Arsenal took to tin plating the bullets for National Match ammo. Several times the tin soldered the bullet into the case, causing some blow ups. They quit that tin plating nonsense pretty damn quick, you betcha!

[Blacksmith]

Check Hatcher's Notebook for information about adding Tin to powder. At the moment I can't remember why but remember him explaining it in some detail.

Blacksmith

[dualsport]

I scored a few pounds of the old 4831 20 years ago. I use it sparingly, it gives very good accuracy in a variety of cartridges.

[frnkeore]

I found it (1185) in Sharpe's "Complete Guild To Handloading". It gives a breaf disciption of it's use with the 172 gr bullet but, no loading data. It gives me the impression that it's like 3031. If I were to use it, I'd start at 10% below 3031 starting loads and work from there.

It said that NRA members, in those days (maybe '28-'30) could buy it as a bulk powder. There maybe more in Hatchers book but, you'll have to look completely through it to find out. There is a huge section on reloading the '06 with both corrosive and noncorrosive primers but, no 1185 loads.

Frank

[frnkeore]

I did fine one load for 1185 in "Hatchers Notebook". This one load makes it look more like 4064.

172 gr BT
49.4 gr 1185
2589 fps
ES 48
45,335 CUP

Frank

[MakeMineA10mm]

I did fine one load for 1185 in "Hatchers Notebook". This one load makes it look more like 4064.

172 gr BT
49.4 gr 1185
2589 fps
ES 48
45,335 CUP

Frank

Yes, but keep in mind that back in those days the pressure-measurement and velocity-measurement equipment wasn't as accurate as today. (A factor I believe has a lot to do with the toning-down of loads in modern manuals.) This isn't even taking into consideration the lot-to-lot variations in powders which we still deal with today, but which had a tendancy to be bigger back in those days as well...

All-in-all, combined with the age issue, I'd go very slow, if I went there at all. I might think about using it with some ultra-low-pressure cast boolit loads in something like a 303 Brit or 30-40 Krag rather than test a Garand's gas system with it.

I noted in doing a lot of research over the last year that most of the old information on loads for the Garand from Hatcher or the Ordnance Dept., always tended to gravitate around 50.0grs, regardless of powder. (I learned that the Garand's gas system was designed to work around VOLUME of gas more than pressure - although the pressure still has to be right around 9000-10,000psi at the port ideally - and 48.0-50.0grs is ideal, which means most "Garand-appropriate" powders will load at that level.) The invariability in velocities and loads made me distrust these old data sources as fallible, so I disregarded them. Now, using that powder for low-pressure, bolt-gun, cast-boolit loads seems more reasonable to me, FWIW.

If you have a lot of it to make the work worth it, I wish you luck! If you only have a pound or two, I'd make fertilizer out of it... Do you still have original commercial cans? If so, it'd be awesome to have a pic!

[frnkeore]

This data is most likely from the late 20's, before the Garand was even designed and was done with corrosive primers. There is also a a warning in Sharpes book saying that you need to reduce noncorrosive primer by 5% to get equal pressures. I believe that CUP presure units were the same as used in the late 20's and the reading is taken with a micrometer so, I don't see how it would be less accurate than current readings of CUP. The powder could deteriorate after all this time but, kept in air tight metal cans, I would think not. There is still lots of old 4831 running around that's still good. I would look at it, look for rust in the can and that it hasn't begun to crumple and make sure it still has the distint acetone type smell. If it passes thoughs tests, I'd try it with low end 4064 or 3031 loads and work up. I found nothing to say it has any tin in it but, it still could have. If it's still in good shape, I think it would be a good powder (I like 4064). There is only one way to tell but, be cautious.

Frank

[Big Dave]

Fiddled with the stuff a little back in the early 60s. Seemed to give pretty erratic performance in 30-40 Krag and 8x57 Mauser but worked well in a friend's 264 Win mag so let him have it and went back to 4064 and 4320.

[358 Win]

A friend of mine did some electrical work for a widow and asked him if he would like to take some gun powder her late husband had. He kept it in a refrigerator by the bench. He gave
me 2 full pounds of surplus H4831. Said he would not try it due to the age. This was 3 years
ago. It was in the red paper cans marked "military surplus". It smelled wonderful and no brown dust what so ever. I worked up some loads in one of my .270 Win rifles to see if I could safely get to the 60gr charge of it behind the HDY 130gr Interlok bullet. When I reached
60gr the velocity was 3150fps out of my 22" bbl. Accuracy was steller also. 358 Win

[MtGun44]

WW2 4831 was for 20mm, I have been told many times.

Bill