lubing PP

[Beekeeper]

As I have already stated a couple of times I am a complete newbe clutz when it comes to PP.
I am learning tho!
Now I need everyones advice on lubing the PP boolit.
Paul Mathews in his book the paper jacket recommends using bees wax and soaking the boolits until the boolit comes up to the wax temp (about 15 minutes).
Does any one do it? Pro or Conn accepted.


Jim

[303Guy]

Interesting!
... and soaking the boolits until the boolit comes up to the wax temp ...I have tried something similar with my 'waxy-lube' and cig paper patches. That 'glued' the sig paper onto the core. But then again, I found that when dismantling cig paper patches, it seemed to be 'glued' to the core anyway (not as much though). I have been reading that soaking the patch is bad ju-ju but that may be refering to sizing after soaking. What I do though is dip the base potion of the patched boolit into molten 'waxy-lube' before seating as this holds the boolit firm, seals the case, lubes the bore and provides a waxy deposit to the interior of the suppressor.

In low velocity 'test tube' testing, I recall that 'waxy-lube' soaked notepad paper patches do not come off the boolit as readily as dry patches.

Patching over a lubed boolit resulted in the patch staying on the boolit in the catch medium.

[1874Sharps]

Beekeeper,

Welcome to the world of paper patching, new"bee"! Paul Matthews book is great and helped me get up to speed about five years ago when I started to PP my boolits. I imagine there are a million ways to do things when it comes to lubing PP boolits, and as long as a given method works, then it is great. I have used Lee Liquid Alox to great effect with smokeless loads with the 45-70 (before I turned exclusively to the Darkside). I seated a 0.060" wad about 1/4" into the case mouth, then dripped in three drops of LLA, then placed another 0.060" and seated the boolit to depth. I did not wait for the LLA to dry.

[223tenx]

I borrowed Mathew's book from a friend and have since returned it so I can't verify my thoughts, but didn't he soak the patches to waterproof and protect them? I seem to remember he used a 50/50 vaseline/ b'swax for lubing. The 50/50 I made is a semi hard lube and I just rub it on the patched boolit before sizing. Makes it size and seat a lot easier.

[Heavy]

Just put alittle axle or lithuem grease on your finger tip and thumb and rub on the paper is all that you need when you are ready to size and dump powder and seat. Been doing it that way since the mid seventies. Dont need much just enough to make it slick to go thru lee sizer then into the case. These have had a shelf life for up to 15 years so far with out any bad results. With 2400 and 4895 powder.

[JeffinNZ]

I use Neatsfoot oil. It 'dries' onto the patch nicely. Seems to work rather well.

[303Guy]

Jeff, what is Neatsfoot oil?

[Beekeeper]

223tenX,
You are right, it is his way of waterproofing the patch, my mistake
He does use beeswax/vasailne , 50/50 as a patch lube.
Sorry for the misleading post but that is what happens when I try to gain too much from a book without a little hands on to go with it.
Thanks for the correction , How else are you supposed to learn if you don't get feedback pro or con.

Thanks everyone for your input.

Jim

[barrabruce]

Neatsfoot oil is suposed to be made from the bones of cattle.
Used for keeping leather soft.
Apparrently it could be made from pure lard now or other oils with petroleum oils added.

Did a Wiki search :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neatsfoot_oil
Bara

[303Guy]

Thanks Barra. (I never thought of just looking it up on the 'net!):oops:

Something that was mentioned; oil is not compressable but paper is so if the paper is soaked with oil (grease or wax) it becomes incompressable so the compression of sizing compresses the core, loosening the patch, right? Well, wouldn't that be desireable when the boolit is 'swaged' in the bore on firing to assist in the patch coming off at the muzzle? (Assuming the patched boolit is not sized before firing).

[303Guy]

Right! I came across a test I did a while back. I was testing glue on paper patches. The glue I used was some paper glue or other I found at my local shop. I diluted the glue, wet the casting in it and rolled on a cig paper patch. I hot dipped the boolit nose in 'waxy-lube' and gave it a test in my 'test tube'. I do not recall the powder charge but it would have been fairly mild.

The loaded, hot dipped boolit.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-860F.jpg

Recovered pieces of patch.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-863F.jpg

Seems to me that the glue makes the paper impervious to waxy lubes and actually facilitates the patch coming of the casting. (Paper glue does not adhere to lead). This is something I may have to 're-visit'.:roll:

[leftiye]

303, What is "paper glue" What is your "waxy-lube?" (Seemed like a good time to ask.)

[303Guy]

'Paper glue' - the stuff school kids use. The one I am using probably is PVA but it is formulated to not leave a heavy residue. The one I wanted to use comes in a bottle and has a rubber applicator nozzle on the bottle.

'Waxy-lube' is my own secret formula. It's made from candle wax, STP and Alox. Equal amounts of STP and Alox and as much wax to get the desired consistancy. The main thing about it is its hardness. I was using it to 'glue' my hornet bullets in the case mouth with a paper cup. The paper cup would soak up the molten 'waxy-lube'. I was keeping the gun in a cool damp place throughout the winter and I never cleaned or oiled or anythinged the bore and it did not rust. (I monitored it daily at first). Now I use it to lube my 303 Brit and 303-25 bullets by dipping the bases into it. I am also trying it to 'glue' and seal my patched boolits in the case necks. I used it as a surface lube on my cast boolits.

[windrider919]

I had been planning to make a post that Neatsfoot oil was extracted by distilling the feet of the Neat, which is an insect found in the Western US desert region that looks like a cross between a scorpion and a centipede. Found only at night, trained foot pullers catch the Neat and remove the multiple legs and then release the Neat to go grow some more. Then they............

Ah well.

As for lubed patches, most BP shooters will tell you you lose accuracy doing that. But with smokeless I found that SOMEtimes lube works. The guys that are sizing their PP bullets have to lube but I got into PP as a way to eliminate steps. I do NOT size either my core bullet or the patched bullet. I just make them the right size to begin with. Of course that required a custom bullet mould! After a lot of testing i found that I did get fair accuracy with dry patches but I had a problem with patches getting wet from sweat in my shirt pocket while hunting or even starting to unpeal on the bench at the range in high humidity here on the Texas Gulf Coast. So I experimented with various glues like 303guy does but in my experience the accuracy suffered. And a lot of the oiley lubes softened the patch so much that coming out of the magazine into the chamber the patch would catch and bunch up or tear on one side.

Then Rooster patch and tumble lube was recommended. I tried it and now I use it on every patch. It is a water based/soluble wax emulsion that dries to a waterproof wax. I wet the patch, roll it on the bullet and let dry. It waterproofs the cartridge and toughens the patch just enough to carry and chamber well but still lets the patch tear apart at the muzzle. And I got my best accuracy using it.

[303Guy]

windrider919, for some reason, that was the funniest post I have ever read!:mrgreen:
Maybe it was the beer or maybe it was the clever wit - all I know I know is that it was so funny my eyes watered! (I couldn't read the rest of your post but I will now).

[303Guy]

Right, I have tried a few auto wax polises and didn't like them. There is avaiable a wood wax but only comes in two litre containers (I think) and is not exactly cheap! But if Rooster works, then I need to get some!

[Beekeeper]

Where do you get rooster patch and tumble lube?

jim

[windrider919]

Rooster Jacket Bullet Film Lube from Rooster Laboratories
www.roosterlabs.com

or:
Buffalo Arms Co
http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,3448.html

I also found that Buffalo usually stocks 25% and !00% cotton rag paper which works well for patches too.
Several of the senior staff are dedicated PP long range BPCR shooters who will give their opinion if asked.

Note: one technique Rooster recommends is wetting the paper patch and letting it dry, then wrapping the bullet. I tried that but found that wetting the patch and wrapping the bullet right then and letting it dry worked best for smokeless high velocity loads.

[303Guy]

Some paper shrinks if wetted and allowed to dry. Such paper could be applied dry then wetted and allowed to dry. Using an emulsion wax would fit the bill just fine - wets and waxes! In fact, why not use the wax emulsion to wet the patch before wrapping?

[mleeber]

So I went to the local Publix to get some BeesWax and Vaseline to make Paul's lube and they only had beeswax mixed into women's beauty products. I picked up some GulfWax, how does that compare to beeswax???? Why is there always one ingredient that is just not on every shelf???

[docone31]

Gulf wax is NOT beeswax! It is parafin based.
First off, why are we going to lube paper patch bullets?
The paper is the jacket, it polishes going down the bore. If any lube is used, it is to weather proof it, rather than make a lubricating medium for firing. The paper is the lubricating medium.
I use Auto Wax on final sizeing. I dab very slightly on my patched loads, then run them through the sizer for final size.
There is some auto wax polished on the patch, but not much. It makes a very stable patch.
If we are going to the trouble of getting a final size, why muck it up with a lube?
You shouldn't need lube for patched loads.
Beeswax is found at Ace Hardware, Tru Value, most any hardware stores. If it is found in any other stores, it is found in 1 oz cakes. I went on line and got 5lbs for a song. 5lbs goes a long way, that is for sure. I made my pan lube, and black powder lube. Both seperate lubes.
Paper patching. Not lubeing.
A dab of wax for sizeing, not fireing.
A little lube for weather proofing. Not much, a little.

[mleeber]

Maybe I am on the wrong path here. I have taken some .459 bullets (cast from the Lyman 457122 330gr Gould HP mold using WW and 50/50 bar solder to get Lyman #2 alloy). These were sized and lubed at .459 (they are barely .459) and then I sized them down to .452 to patch them. I have a double wrap of 9# onion skin and I was going to skip the resizing after the patch because I am shooting them out of a Marlin Guide gun. I am concerned that .459 is a little small for the GG and nobody makes a .460 or .461 for the Lyman or RCBS style lube sizers. Additionally I am concerned that resizing in a .459 die that has lube residue in it will make the patch stick to the bullet. So, per Paul's book I was going to lube the outside of of the patch with 55% beeswax and 45% vaseline to ensure that the patch does not tear when seating into the new Starline brass. I am also thinking that seating these in the brass should do some amount of sizing (it will at least compress the paper a little). I am using the Lee powder die to flare the case mouth and unlike the Lyman it does not really expand the case below the first 8th of an inch. I am only running 43grs of 3031 in these loads which is well below max and I may even put some dacron under the bullet to make sure everything stays put (although there is no more than 3/16th of an inch of empty space in this load). I have ordered a BP Mold that throws a .454 475gr bullet (Lyman 457121PH) that I think is more promising but I thought I would test 10 rounds of the Gould bullet paper patched just for fun.

The Gould bullet sized to .459 and fired without the patch gives me a 4-6 inch group at 100 and I am looking for no more than half that and would prefer an MOA gun at 100 which I am sure the gun and cartridge are capable of once I find the right combination of bullet and powder (lots of powders on the shelf but 3031 seems to be the only one popular in 45/70). I am guessing that I will also have to invest in a custom .460 or .461 sizer and find a mold that drops something .462 if I am going to be successful in this endeavor with unpatched bullets. With the number of Marlin 45/70s out there you would think a .460 sizing die would be a popular product.

By the way sights are factory irons front and Williams receiver mounted peep rear.

Thanks!
Mark

[mleeber]

Oh, I forgot to mention that this is a Stainless GG. Not sure if it makes any difference. Ballard rifling too, not Micro Groove.

[303Guy]

If I may answer docone31's question with a question - if the paper is the lubricant, then why lube it (even just lightly) for sizing? I have tried sizing lubed and dry and it doesn't work dry. Conditions during firing are a bit different. Still, I can't help thinking that a little lube on the patch is going to reduce friction between bore and patch. And the fibrous nature of paper makes it an ideal lube carrier and lubricant. I know that some folks do not lube their patches at all but aren't these folks black powder shooters who clean the bore after each shot? That would be applying a form of lubricating film to the bore. I get the impression that light lubing of the patch is a good thing. I have not done tests so I can't say. I just like lubing the bore - I live in a cool and wet place - so I shall be attempting to get my patched boolits to work with lubed patches (lightly lubed).

[yeahbub]

I once thought it important to get a "lube star" on the muzzle and carried that over to my PP efforts with the usual card wad/lube cookie which got very good results on target, though some calibers/rifles liked it better than others. Some (.357 and .44 mag) have done distinctly better with a lubed patch minus the card wad/lube cookie. More case volume that way too. I'm in favor of the "fewer steps" idea mentioned by others, so my patch lubing consists of putting 30-50 patched boolits in a sour cream tub with 5-10 or so drops of Lee Liquid Alox and an equal volume of Johnson Paste Wax, shaken, not stirred, and set out to dry. It seems like an unusually small amount, but the porosity of the paper can't hold much more than the thin film visible when they are shaken and evenly coated. After coating, they look like they have a thin but smooth coat of varnish. They're ready to size when dry and the paper will have a waxy feel to it afterward. It definitely helps with the sizing, seating and the trip down the bore. The carbauba in the JPW keeps the LLA from being too sticky during handling and leaving gummy debris on the sizing dies/cases/fingers, etc. I have yet to try White Label Lube Co. Carnauba Red dissolved in a bit of mineral spirits to achieve the same ends. I was thinking it may avoid the tackiness issue altogether but still waterfroof the patch.

BTW, if anyone's interested, I may have discovered a couple of possible thin wrapping papers that show good "mechanical" strength and hold together well when wet. One is the "vegetable parchment" used to grab donuts/baked goods with at a local BP/convenience mart. It's .0012, sometines as thin as .001, dense and takes ink well, so it's not waxed. I was checking it out for use as air mail stationary to elderly relatives in the Old Country and the PP light came on. A half-dozen sheets or so could be free and may be an answer for those who prefer minimum sizing. The other is the large sheet used to wrap sandwiches at Subway sandwich shops and other places. Dense, tough, and consistently .002 on the money. I'm sure a few could be had for the asking. I don't know if there's any rag content, but I have to wonder given their resistance to tearing even when saturated with food goop. My $.02 for the day.

[303Guy]

Our local KFC uses a paper to line their food cartons. It looks like thin tracing paper. I tried it for wrapping - it didn't seem to expand when wet. It dries to form a smooth patch. It unwraps unless a dab of paper glue is used under the trailing corner.

[docone31]

.303 Guy.
Paper is less abrasive if it is not held into place by something. In other words, if there is no lube on a patch, other than just enough for the sizeing, then when it is fired, there is little added friction.
The paper itself is pretty stable. The only part that makes the most friction is the first penetration into the rifleing. After that, the projectile is stable. The paper acting as a cushion as well as a protective medium between the bore and the projectile itself.
Lube, especially lube that will continue to exude, will hold the paper to the bore, increasing the friction as it passes.
At the yardage I fire at with my .303, I did notice a difference in lubed and unlubed. The lubed had larger groups than the unlubed!
It is not like a casting that has lube lands. The lube acts as a gasket as well as friction detractor. The paper fills the voids, during firing. The leading edge acts as a scraper, as well as a nose, or bow. It breaks the entry.
A little wax during sizeing, just to break the resistance. After that, no wax. The paper is already waxed under pressure.
A little dab will do ya.

[yeahbub]

303Guy, I've noticed that stuff and it looks very much like the donut paper. How thick is it? I never got a piece that was without fryer grease and I didn't want the salt in my bore. A poor excuse - I could have just asked for a few had I been thinking of it, but I was more distrated by the gorgeous babe at the drive-thru window who obviously doesn't eat there. . . . . . . . . Oh, uh, I use glue as well. In the interest of simplifying the PP'ing, I've gotten in the habit of using a patch that goes from half way up the ogive to .080-.100 below the heel on a flat base and gluing the end of the patch to itself with a little dab of carpenters glue. Someone mentioned starch as an adhesive and said it wouldn't stick to lead, which would be a plus. No possibility of gluing the patch to the boolit - yeehaa. This was first a paper-saving move, but it's simpler to not have to deal with tail-twisting/trimming and the patch stays on/works/gets blasted off just as nicely. Is it tough enough to run through a lever action or are they better for single shot use?

On a gas check design, I notice the patch need only extend onto the GC shank to some extent, since the full diameter portion will pinch the paper at that corner when sizing and drag it into the sizer with the boolit. I haven't shot enough of them to form an opinion of their performance yet.

[223tenx]

IIRC 50/50 parafin and vaseline is DARR lube. I have some of this and it's harder than the 50/50 B'swax/vaseline lube and doesn't melt with hand warmth like the Matthews.

[303Guy]

docone31, that makes sense to me. Now I wonder how good of an idea it is to lube the base end of the boolit which leaves a light film of lube in the bore. Hopefully it is too little to cause a problem. Unfortunately, it is impossible to capture a full tilt boolit or its patch for examination! for now I shall go with my regular 'roll on the lube pad' which applies a tiny amount of lube to the patch, and just see how it works (I'm not sizing the patched boolit but when I did, the same treatment seemed to work) then move to another method and see again. In the end it will be range results that count! Right now I am still developing molds and boolit shape. (The great thing about chatting to you folks out there is I am not worried about failure 'cause I know something else will work for me eventually! I just like to try stuff that I expect not to work - but hope will).

yeahbub, I don't remember the thickness of that paper. I did ask for a sheet so I had a clean sample. I think it was the same thickness as lined notepad paper.

[Beekeeper]

Docone 31, 303 guy,
Bask to the original question.
I know I mistakenly read Paul Mathews book!!
But his soaking the patched boolit in molten beeswax and then drying them for waterproofing is the same as lubing the patch,is it not?
The impregnated wax in the patch forms a waterproof cover I agree but it also would provide lubrication as it went down the barrel.
It simply doesn't go away as soon as the round is chambered.unless there is some kind of magic I don't understand!
So doing the same thing or using something like JPW would give excellent lube capabilities as well as waterproofing.
I'm not saying it's the cats meow but it doesn't hurt to check it out and to have it as a backup .


Jim

[windrider919]

beekeeper - That has always been my question to the BPCR guys who scream about 'lubed' patches not working.

And I tried JPW but, at least for me, it softened and loosened the paper patch (swells up a little) when applied but the patch does not tighten up as much after it dries. And JPW treated bullets patches tore more on seating.

But with Rooster bullet lube, wet the patch, roll it on, let it dry to a hard wax n load.

[303Guy]

I'm with Beekeeper. I have not done trials but I can't help thinking that the right amount of an appropriate lube will indeed improve the lubricity of paper down the bore. Remember that the boolit is being driven under pressure all the way and therefore it will be trying to deform against the bore. Too much sticky lube could cause the patch to 'wipe away' and none might do the same.

Tests I have done show better results with a small amount of lube than dry but that is at low velocity.

I tried Turtle Wax and it softened and swelled the patch.

[rhead]

Try some of each. One will almost certainly work better than the other in your rifle.