Sharps brass question - found a crack in a 45-120 case

[mnzrxer]

When cleaning brass after my last shooting session I found this piece of brass (pictured below) that had a crack from just ahead of the rim up the case about 1". This case has been fired 4 times. It has been cleaned in dish soap and water right after shooting and full length sized in RCBS dies. There was no sign of a failure when shooting and the crack is barely noticeable.

My guess is the full length sizing is helping to work harden the brass and it finally just gave up. The crack is in the thickest part of the case where the brass will experience the greatest stress when it stretches to meet the chamber walls during firing and gets squeezed back into shape during resizing.

I have seen "neck" sizer dies for the "straight" wall cartridges and think this would help prolong my brass life. Has anyone here used "neck" sizing only? I have never had any extraction issues and the fired cases slip into the chamber fine, so I think I could "neck" size most of the time and only full length size as needed.

Should I be annealing the brass at some point? I have yet to crack a neck and have never seen any mention of annealing an entire case. How many firings should I expect to get out of one case?

Here is the pic

[NickSS]

Your brass probably was defective to split in that area so fast. From what you say you seam to be using black powder so pressures are low and being in the thickest part of the case it is actually least likely to fail. I have seen such failures in poor quality brass from time to time but not too often. It is possible that you got a bad batch. Neck sizing will extend brass life as will annealing the case mouth every third or fourth reloading. This will only stop neck cracking though.

[Boz330]

I only neck size. My 40-65 brass was formed from 45-70 brass in 1991 and I've only thrown away maybe 10 cases out of the initial 250 since then. I would dump the full length resizing and anneal every so often. Some guys anneal every loading, but that is way to much fun everytime. I believe there is a machine to do it with which would take some of the work out of it, not to mention wear and tear on my fingers.

Bob

[Lead pot]

When I saw the Pedersoli rifle come out in the Cabela catalog back in the 90's? I thought I really needed that rifle:roll: well I got it and picked up 100 rounds of Bertram brass and started loading some up with 120 grains of 1f and down to the range I went.
Well after 3 loadings I had one split like your case and two more loadings I had three cases split the same way.
The first thing I do is anneal the case necks even before I fire the first shot through them.
Annealing wont help you when the case splits down by the case head and I don't think it would be good to anneal the brass down in the head area and also in the middle so I put all the brass I had left in the odd and end brass and range pick up's to melt down some day for a brass canon:roll: and replaced the brass with Bell .45 basis and never had that problem splits in the head again.
I don't know what your using for brass but you might think about getting a different brand.

Lp.

[Ringer]

I would't be too concerned about one case
I purchased a box of factory Federal 45-70 jacketed rounds to break in a new Badger barrel as recommended, and the first round of brass cracked full length upon firing. Scared me, as I wondered if I had a bad chamber. Have not cracked a piece of brass since. I do not anneal my brass, 38-55 or 45-70. FWIW,
Ringer

[1874Sharps]

MNZRXER,

The above posts give sound advice. If you are shooting smokeless, full-length sizing is not necessary and probably will serve no advantage. Bullet pull (neck tension on the boolit) is important but can be attained with neck sizing only. If you are shooting black powder, you likely can get by with no sizing at all! If the powder/wad column height is such that your boolit touches the leade, then even if the boolit is on the loose side in the case, it will not matter. Of course, a taper crimp can hold the boolit in the mouth of the case if need be (as in a hunting scenario in the field).

When brass is drawn in the case forming process it must be annealed (sometimes many times, depending on the case). The neck turns out much softer than the head/rim, which is just the way it should be. If the annealing is not sufficient a crack can develop near the rim, as happened to you. If you anneal your cases be sure to protect the head and a bit above them from the heat or else the primer pockets will enlarge upon firing (this has happened to me before and it ruins the case). I wish I had a "cigar cartridge" shooting rifle, but the 45-70 will do. Can one really have too many guns, after all?!!

[montana_charlie]

I have seen "neck" sizer dies for the "straight" wall cartridges and think this would help prolong my brass life. Has anyone here used "neck" sizing only?
Back your full-length sizer out of the press about five turns. See if that gets the neck small enough to suit you...without sizing the case in the head area at all.

If you're lucky, you'll find a place where your expansion of the case mouth can be kept to a minimum, too.
CM

[mnzrxer]

Thanks for all the quick responses. This place is a great resource for sure! Shooting only BP in this cartridge. Overall length is set so the boolit is touching the leade. I will have to try seating a boolit in a fired case to see just how loose it might be. I was a little worried that if I didn't size all the way to the rim it would leave a step in the case that might cause problems, so I haven't tried backing off the die any. If I don't have to resize (or only have to do it rarely) that would be nice since this long case can get pretty tight in the sizing die. I haven't stuck one in there, but it has been close. Which leads me to another question.

What do you guys use to lube the cases for sizing? I picked up some spray lube because it was handy, but I don't really like the way it works. Hard to tell if the case is properly coated (which leads to difficult sizing), and leaves a slimy residue that needs to be cleaned off. I have seen the pads that you roll the cases over and a powder that is applied by dipping the case in coated ceramic beads (from Redding, I think). Does the pad method use liquid lube as well?

Hopefully this was just a bad case as it seems you guys get a lot of use from good brass. Or maybe I just found out why Cabela's was selling this stuff so cheap!

[mnzrxer]

By the way, I'm using Norma brass. Not too many options out there for this cartridge, but maybe you get what you pay for, eh?

[martinibelgian]

When you only necksize, you won't even notice the case going into the die... And it's maybe called a straight case, but if you measure it, you will note it has a taper to it.

[Hip's Ax]

My BPCTR shooting buddy and I never resize, we just slip fit (we shoot only BP). Works awesome and we get up to 30 firings on some batches of cases. I'm shooting 45-70 and 45-90, not 45-120 though.

[mnzrxer]

Did some testing today (more info in another thread) and checked boolit fit in the fired cases. Case mouths measured 0.463" on the ID and I have been sizing to 0.459". Needless to say the boolit fell right to the bottom of the case. With this load I have about 0.060" of compression on the powder and could crimp the boolit in place, but it seems 4 thou of slop between the case and projectile is a bit much.

Based on Montana Charlie's suggestion I backed off the sizer until a sized case would just hold the boolit in the neck (a lot more than 5 turns, by the way). I think I will try loading some up this way to see what happens. Might be a couple weeks before I can shoot 'em though.

[R.C. Hatter]

:violin:Since the main part of your question seems to be answered already, I'll direct my remarks to your sizing lube question. A bit of lube is required, even for neck sizing. I've found the Lee Resizing Lube in the tube works very well, as does common Crisco. You don't have to use much of either one, and the case is readily cleaned with alcohol on a rag.

[montana_charlie]

Case mouths measured 0.463" on the ID and I have been sizing to 0.459".
What prompted you to size to .459"?
If your fired cases have a mouth ID of .463", you may not need to size bullets at all. What is your as-cast bullet diameter?

And...if you are using a Lyman sizing die, those bullets may actually be .458" after sizing.
CM

[mnzrxer]

The boolits are dropping from the mould between 0.459 and 0.460" and the barrel grooves measure 0.458". I have measured the sized bullets with a mic and they are 0.4592" +/- .0002. So until I work on the mould a bit I am stuck with the 0.459" size.

I am using a Lyman Lubrisizer for the convenience of applying lube without a mess. I've been reading about pan lubing and lube recipes here and if I can get my mould to drop bigger boolits I will likely be trying those methods. Right now I am doing only small quantities at a time so the Lubrisizer works well enough.

[montana_charlie]

The boolits are dropping from the mould between 0.459 and 0.460" and the barrel grooves measure 0.458". I have measured the sized bullets with a mic and they are 0.4592" +/- .0002.
In that case, I don't suppose you need to change anything regarding bullet size...

CM

[Pathfinder1cav]

mnzrxr,
I have several Pedersoli's that I compete with.. They ALL like .460" bullets! (W/W)
I don't size & just finger seat.. works fine in .45-70s & 90s.. doubt that it would be much different in a .45-120.

[BPCR Bill]

By the way, I'm using Norma brass. Not too many options out there for this cartridge, but maybe you get what you pay for, eh?

Norma brass is of excellent quality, and your cracked case is probably an anamoly. I've got Norma, Winchester, Remington, BELL, you name it. Once in a great while a case will split as you described, I don't care who makes them. Lathe turned cases will split like that much more frequently than drawn cases. I know this from experience. 20 years ago when I bought my first 45-110, I bought "Red Willow Armory" cartridge cases from Dixie. The were made in Stevensville, MT. and I believe Red Willow is out of buisness. They were lathe turned and not of very good quality, quite a few cracking out of the 60 rounds I bought. Just keep on loading and shooting what you have.

Regards,
Bill

[mnzrxer]

Loaded up a dozen rounds to do more primer testing. I sized with the dies set as I described a few posts above. I like being able to seat the boolit most of the way by hand. Much easier to get into the press and the boolit doesn't want to fall out of the case mouth. Now I just have to go shoot 'em!

[mnzrxer]

mnzrxr,
I have several Pedersoli's that I compete with.. They ALL like .460" bullets! (W/W)
I don't size & just finger seat.. works fine in .45-70s & 90s.. doubt that it would be much different in a .45-120.

Do you use a crimp? I wonder if the shorter brass has a thicker neck. As I mentioned before my fired cases are 0.463" ID so even a 0.460" boolit fall right out of the case.