Marlin lever owners please help

[geoff rodger]

Hi guys, I have A marlin cowboy in 357 which I shoot lee 158156 cowboy casts in at only about 1100fps using 4gr of titegroup. 3/4 groups at 50yards and cheaper to shoot than a .22 .
Because of this it is fast becoming my favourite rabbit varmint fun gun. But I feel I have to have a hollow point . so I going to send new Lyman mold to ERIK at hollow point mold service to hp for me . but I cant decide between a Lyman 358566 cowboy mold or A Lyman 358156 one to hollow point. Has anyone shot or had one of these hp . Which one do you think will be more accurate in the marlin at around 1100fps.
Can I even expect A large hp to open up at round 1100fps
Thanks in advance for any info.

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_3149.jpg This is a HP Lyman at just 850 fps. from a 1-7/8" snubnose S&W. The alloy is 50/50 Wheelweights to pure lead, (by volume). This is a plain base boolit, I'm guessing you might need a gas check at much higher speeds. These lead at 900+ from the same gun. A slower powder in the long Marlin barrel might help in this respect though.

[geoff rodger]

great photo. I,m casting mine out of Lyman L2 but I have a cupboard full of pure lead and wheel weight in my basement. I,ll melt some down tomorrow for a softer mix to see how I go.
thanks for the reply.

[GrizzLeeBear]

What do you want the HP for? A 158 gr. SWC at 1100 fps should be instant death for any small game. A HP might prove to have to much meat destruction and they take much longer to cast. Just try the softer alloy. Not saying HP aren't usefull, but I think they are overkill on small critters you want to eat. Varmints, of course, are another story.

[qajaq59]

I'd try the 50/50 and see how it mushrooms before buying another mold. A Lyman 311041 mushrooms to .570, and retains it's weight in my 30-30.

[PA Shootist]

I have considered the same; my Marlin 1894 has also become a favorite walk-about and small game gun. Only problem with my cast 358429 in .38 Special case, which has proven to be instant lights out for groundhogs and bunnies, is over-penetration, and ricochet. That boolit barely slows down through the critter, even though the flat meplat, cutting edge of driving band, and weight still give great performance on game. I suspect it would be great on our not-too-large whitetails, but haven't yet used it. An expanding hollow-pouint which performs like the pictured above might be way better in that regard, as well as enhanced killing. But the one-at-a-time hollow point process versus my 4-cavity mold is a big deal. I have only one hollow-point Lyman single-cavity mold, and I haven't used it in many, many years, just too tediously slow, and it takes too long to get good fillout around the HP.

[AnthonyB]

I have several 358156 Hp's and think it is probably the most versatile boolit available for the 35 caliber. I prefer the 358429HP for most applications, but the 358156 is more generally useful. I'd go with it, and have Erik make it a cramer style HP if you worry about casting speed. Most of my HPs are converted two cavities, and there isn't much difference in my casting speed. Tony

[truckmsl]

Maybe try 3.5 grains for less penetration before going to a hollow point. That would be an even quieter load but likely still accurate at the distance you need. I've used this load in my marlin behind 148 grain wadcutters, which feed well in .38 or .357 if loaded a bit outside of the case mouth. No ear protection required and dead on accurate at 50 yards. Should work just as well with the cowboy boolit.

[brian]

Lyman makes a "devastator" 125 gr. HP mould already. cast it soft and it should open up. with the lighter weight, should penetrate less, thus reducing ominous richocetts. or try driving a 148 gr. swaged HBWC backwards with 2 to 3 gr. of a pistol powder. long range stability will be a problem, but for short range should be good.
have fun
Brian

[Leftoverdj]

We're talking rabbits here, maybe 3 pounds. I would not expect anything except maybe reversed HBWC to expand at c. 1000 fps on that little resistance.

I use standard .38 Special wadcutter loads for this sort of stuff. Don't expect to shoot much over 50 yards, and they work great within that range. Ricochets are always a possibility, but a low probability, and the danger zone has to be rather short after the bullet has shed at least some velocity on impact and been deformed and destabilized in the process.

[35remington]

"Only problem with my cast 358429 in .38 Special case, which has proven to be instant lights out for groundhogs and bunnies, is over-penetration, and ricochet."

If you're actually expecting a hollow point of around 158 grains in weight travelling at 1000+ fps to not overpenetrate on small game or ricochet as opposed to a standard SWC, well, you're being a bit optimistic.

As mentioned, we're talking about 2 to maybe 10-11 pound critters when speaking of rabbits to groundhogs. Hollowpoints will overpenetrate most certainly as well, and no cast hollowpoint of this size, cast in whatever alloy you want, would be retained in the body of a critter that small. Given the relatively light resistance, even hollowpoints don't expand that much at these low speeds on a skinny little cottontail.

A standard cast bullet of fairly wide meplat will do certain damage on small game and will kill quickly. As far as ricochet goes, if the shot is likely to ricochet, don't shoot. A hollowpoint of this size and low velocity, while slightly lowering the danger of a ricochet since the bullet is more likely to be deformed on impact, is no guarantee it won't ricochet. Most cast hollowpoints may, not will, shed or deform some part of the nose upon impact with a reasonably hard surface, usually leaving most of the bullet intact, with ricochets still a likely occurrence, especially at these mild velocities.

The .22 long rifle hollowpoints still readily ricochet upon striking the earth, despite going a bit faster, being much lighter in weight and more fragile, and being comprised of a softer alloy than most cast hollowpoints, especially .358 cast hollowpoints that weight 4X as much as a long rifle bullet. It's the relatively low velocity these .358" bullets are travelling and the relatively rugged construction of these bullets that keeps them mostly intact despite the fact that they have hollow points.

A hollowpoint will lessen the danger zone IF it deforms upon striking the ground, but oftentimes the hollowpoint will plug and act like a solid upon striking the earth, and zipping away fully intact is quite probable, too.

I would certainly have no quarrel with a guy who chooses a hollowpoint wanting to reduce ricochet likelihood, but he should not count on it occurring, nor should he take a shot likely to ricochet in the hopes the hollowpoint will break up. Due to the low velocity, that ain't gonna happen, and often most of the time.

[PA Shootist]

I understood from the beginning the point, small furry target, large heavy bullet at modest velocity, will go right on through. The point is that the penetration and remaining energy is very noticeable, and truly formidable. I just wanted to bring that idea to the forefront. If a hollowpoint would help, well OK, but as said one can't expect night and day difference just because of a hollowpoint. As much as I like my Marlin as a trail gun, I keep the scenario in mind and select targets and the backstop and/or beyonds very carefully. My personal experiences of 40 plus years of hunting and shooting puts the .22 HP in a completely different category than the 150-170 grain lead boolit of the .38 Spl./ .357 Magnum, as far as excess penetration and remaining lethality.

I'll stick to my point about the slow and arduous process of casting hollowpoint boolits, with perhaps little benefit in this case. Unless one just has lots of time on one's hands, and I typically never have quite enough for all my hobbies and pursuits, I can't bring myself to cast the hollowpoints. To each his own...

I also went through some experimentation with reliable every-time, all-the-time, feeding of a cast bullet with my rifle, and came to the 358429 in .38 Special cases through that process. I never had much luck with full wadcutters.

I also enjoy the old-time idea of complete interchangeability of the same ammo in rifle and revolvers, and my choice of boolit and load has served me admirably in that respect. Your mileage may vary!

[StarMetal]

You have yourself fooled into thinking you're loading those cheaper then a box of 22's. Just the cost of the primer and powder alone exceed what you can buy a box of 22 hollowpoints for. That's not counting your alloy cost, time, lube, and electricity to make those cast bullets.

35remingting is quite correct. Better served with a 22 rimfire. For that fact a quality break action pellet rifle would do.

Joe

[crabo]

I'd try the Lee 125 rnfp. If you need to try some, I'll send you some.

[woody1]

You have yourself fooled into thinking you're loading those cheaper then a box of 22's. Just the cost of the primer and powder alone exceed what you can buy a box of 22 hollowpoints for. That's not counting your alloy cost, time, lube, and electricity to make those cast bullets.

35remingting is quite correct. Better served with a 22 rimfire. For that fact a quality break action pellet rifle would do.

Joe

Not to beat a dead horse here, Joe, but you might be surprised if you run the numbers. Let's pick what we know would be a cheap load:
Alliant Promo powder and you pick the primer; 158 gr. SWC PB - primers at $30 and Alliant Promo powder at $90 per 8#. At 5 gr. Promo the cost of Powder and primer is $0.038. My spreadsheet tells me that if I'm lucky enough that my boolits cost me $0.50 per pound, it costs me just under $0.05 a shot or about $2.50 a box of 50. Boolits at $1 per lb. raise the cost per box to about $3. Winchester Power Point HP's are about $3.35 per box bought by the brick. YNMV Regards, Woody

[geoff rodger]

Kind of you to offer Crabo to post some casts to try , But I live in New Zealand. I just brought A Lyman mold cowboy 358566. to be hp. will let you know how I get on . I will even post A few pics of my first casts. The reson I say I can load it cheaper than A rimfire is that A 1lb powder is 7410grain and my loads is only 4grains . thats a hell of lot of shooting out of A 1lb . then there is just my primers. case last for ever. I have so much lead I,ll never use it.

[armyrat1970]

I have a Marlin Model 1894 in 357. From all that I have read it shoots better with heavier boolits. I have tried 125gr. and 158gr. jacketed and the 158 does seem to be a little more accurate. Just starting to cast and load with the Lee 358-158-RF mold and haven't actually fired any yet but I feel they will function and fire with good results. Hope so anyway. I have a couple hundred cast and just need to find the time to load and shoot them. Other projects with 8mm and 45 are getting in the way right now.

[35remington]

Primer 3 cents a shot, powder about a penny, restoration cost on the brass, at least one cent a shot amortized over time, let's say a half cent for the bullet considering cost of the pot, electricity and what not amortized over time, which is plenty generous on the low side.

Yep, I'd agree five cents a shot is reasonably reasonable. I'd put it at five point five or six cents as more accurate. Let's say I agree with three dollars a box as more representative for centerfire reloading on the cheap.

Problem is, comparing your "budget" cast bullet ammo to high dollar long rifles won't wash. Federal 510 or Winchester Wildcat ("budget" long rifles are best to compare to) is considerably less than that, not to mention the "bulk pack" long rifles.

You can fool yourself that you're reloading cheaper than a long rifle, but you're really not, apples to apples.

Truth.

[Leadforbrains]

This has got my attention because of the apparent versatility of the .357 cartridge in a carbine.
I'm thinkin I am needin a new Marlin.

I have a model 39 for hunting small game, but I'm thinkin' one rifle to do it all down in the southeastern swamps. That is if I am limited to only one rifle.

[qajaq59]

I have a model 39 for hunting small game, but I,m thinkin' one rifle to do it all down in the southeastern swamps. If your swamps in SC are anything like the ones here in southern Florida, I don't think that a ricochet is going to be much of a worry.

[Leadforbrains]

If your swamps in SC are anything like the ones here in southern Florida, I don't think that a ricochet is going to be much of a worry.

I'm not too worried about pass throughs and riccochets where I hunt and camp at, but maybe I need to consider retiring down there . I can put up with the mocasins, skeeters and gators to get some breathin room from humanity.:drinks:

[Leftoverdj]

Primer 3 cents a shot, powder about a penny, restoration cost on the brass, at least one cent a shot amortized over time, let's say a half cent for the bullet considering cost of the pot, electricity and what not amortized over time, which is plenty generous on the low side.

Yep, I'd agree five cents a shot is reasonably reasonable. I'd put it at five point five or six cents as more accurate. Let's say I agree with three dollars a box as more representative for centerfire reloading on the cheap.

Problem is, comparing your "budget" cast bullet ammo to high dollar long rifles won't wash. Federal 510 or Winchester Wildcat ("budget" long rifles are best to compare to) is considerably less than that, not to mention the "bulk pack" long rifles.

You can fool yourself that you're reloading cheaper than a long rifle, but you're really not, apples to apples.

Truth.

Your prices are at least double mine. I stocked up well before this nonsense started with $5 a pound powder, $12-15 a thousand primers, $12 a thousand cases, and lead at under a dime a pound. Exact costs are irrelevant. Whatever they are, they are negligible for small game hunting. I've got the stuff to load and might as well use it.

Now some of you may be a cross between Nimrod, Natty Bumpo, and Kit Carson, but I ain't. Not being able to hit a mosquito in the left eye on the wing at a hundred yards, I take my hits where I can get them, and want that to be enough to anchor them.

IME, the 22 lr ain't enough to anchor anything without an exact hit. For those with a taste for Brunswick stew, and without the patience of Job, something a mite heavier will fill the pot a lot faster.

[qajaq59]

I'm not too worried about pass throughs and riccochets where I hunt and camp at, but maybe I need to consider retiring down there . I can put up with the mocasins, skeeters and gators to get some breathin room from humanity Well, come on down. When you go 50 miles east, south, or west from my house and you're not going to see much more then orange groves and cattle ranches. If you go north though you'll have a little city 25 miles away. :drinks:

[Leadforbrains]

Lots of different schools of thought here. I have no problem anchoring anything edible where I hunt with a .22 rimfire in a survival situation. Im just an average shooter that likes to hunt and shoot.
There is indeed plenty of rimfire ammunition available and that would indeed be my preference for small game. The .357 carbine just plain appeals to me as a better over all meat provider than a .22 because you could also reliably use it for medium sized game such as deer.

[Leadforbrains]

Well, come on down. When you go 50 miles east, south, or west from my house and you're not going to see much more then orange groves and cattle ranches. If you north though you'll have a little city 25 miles away. :drinks:

Thank you for the hospitality.
see you soon:drinks:

[35remington]

Emmett, your costs for components are now long gone. For my actual costs, I've got to go with what it's going to cost me when my small stash of primers has run out, and $30.00 per 1K is now the norm.

Everyone will be in that same boat soon if not already.

Cases are nowhere near 12 bucks a thousand.....more like 12-24 bucks a hundred in many calibers.....and powder's running about 20 dollars a pound, and even $12 or more in large volume per pound using the eight pound jugs of "shotgun" powders. Promo's about as cheap as it gets, and even here we're running near a penny a shot in small doses, caliber dependent.

I've run out of large pistol primers and had to restock, and finding some lately has been easier than in the past.

Sure, I've stocked up on long rifle "plinker" Wildcats when they were going for eight dollars a carton of 500 and still have six cartons left......so if you can use "pre panic" component prices, I can use "pre panic" long rifle prices. That runs to 1.6 cents a shot or a little more with tax, and ain't no way reloaded ammo, even pre panic components, are gonna compete with that, everything included.

Long rifle's still cheaper. Primers are mostly responsible for that, but everything's going up.

I'm not too down on the long rifle, having a first year production 880SQ with the true match chamber and a Rifle Basix trigger that pulls eighteen ounces and groups around .4-.5 inch at fifty with CCI subsonic hollowpoints; it's a small game killing machine.

The long rifle is overmatched for anything above about 10 - 15 lbs or so and then exact placement is needed for certain. Treed coons readily shrug off ribcage hits with the long rifle for a short time before falling out of the tree.

Which is why I'm so fond of my 25-20, and that sees small game use the majority of the time.

Now for small game hunting costs don't enter into it.

I was just commenting on the fantasy that suggests that people can reload cheaper than they can buy long rifles. They can't. Primers alone throw that right out the winda.

[armyrat1970]

Your prices are at least double mine. I stocked up well before this nonsense started with $5 a pound powder, $12-15 a thousand primers, $12 a thousand cases, and lead at under a dime a pound. Exact costs are irrelevant. Whatever they are, they are negligible for small game hunting. I've got the stuff to load and might as well use it.

Now some of you may be a cross between Nimrod, Natty Bumpo, and Kit Carson, but I ain't. Not being able to hit a mosquito in the left eye on the wing at a hundred yards, I take my hits where I can get them, and want that to be enough to anchor them.

IME, the 22 lr ain't enough to anchor anything without an exact hit. For those with a taste for Brunswick stew, and without the patience of Job, something a mite heavier will fill the pot a lot faster.

Well from personal experience here. Laying behind a log on one side of a pond in the evening with a scoped 22 with Remington 22LRHP. I was waiting for a deer that I had seen the tracks of coming down to the pond to drink around dusk. Sure enough it walked over the berm and walked down to the edge of the pond. It looked around a little and then dropped it's head to have a drink. I put the crosshairs in the center of the head at around 75yrds. and pulled the trigger. Watching through the scope the front legs buckled and it kicked over with it's hind legs. The deer flipped into the pond and it's legs kicked about twice. 22LR at around 75yrds. One shot, one quick kill on a whitetail. Shot one in the neck one time with a 30-30 at a distance of no more than 30yrds. hoping to break it's neck. Had to walk up and shoot it in the head with my Ruger 357 to put the final kill shot as it did break the neck but the animal was twisting around in circles.
Now I know of another whitetail that was shot, not by me, through the lungs with a 22LR. The boolit went in one side and out the other. The deer ran for around 100yrds. before it dropped, but it dropped.
Don't underestimate the killing power of the 22LR cartridge. To Me it is the best all around survival cartridge. If I had to pick just one it would be the 22LR with my scoped Ruger 10/22 and my old H&R revolver. You can carry a lot of rounds in a backpack. Of course a good shotgun is always welcomed.:redneck:

[qajaq59]

You can hunt deer in LA with a .22lr?

[Newtire]

I went hunting squirrels one time with some .30 carbine fmj loaded into a .30-06 on top of 16 gr. Unique and they did less damage to the meat than the .22 LR hollow points my buddy was using in his 10/22. I wouldn't use those again because of the ricochet factor though. It's gonna be tough to eliminate a ricochet in any case, just be careful where you shoot.

[cajun shooter]

After reading the story about the deer kill I just had to post this. I'm not sure about what school I was in when it was told this by an instructor. The class that day had to do with ballistics and the effect on the human body. One thing that cops learn real fast is that a lot of people are killed with the 22lr. The instructor told us of a Indian woman in Canada that had a single shot 22lr. She would sneak up on a moose that was feeding and shoot it in the lung area. She would then track the moose, sometimes for more than a day. The moose would finally bleed out and go down and she had meat for her family.It was not a knock you up in the air impact but it did work with the proper shot placement.

[qajaq59]

proper shot placement That's usually the rub......

[Leadforbrains]

You can hunt deer in LA with a .22lr?

Well you really aint suppose to.:bigsmyl2:

[35remington]

Hope this isn't a hijack, but at some point something more than a long rifle is needed. I know it supposedly kills everything, but I would feel a lot more comfortable on a lot of game I hunt with something a little bigger, and I do carry what I think is the best solution.

I know I wouldn't have had any confidence that a head shot attempt on a deer at 75 yards with a long rifle would come out okay. That's stretching things.

Shot an '06 for awhile with a hard cast C113F on a fair amount of small game and I thought a lot of that combination. It was a little noisy at 1550 fps w/231 but accurate.

Really like those long rifle CCI subsonics. Good small game round.

I've had poor luck with the 225438 at long rifle velocities. I'm not all that sold on .22's and cast at low speed. Maybe the Bator will change things.

I actually started my squirrel hunting career shooting them with long rifle Winchester Wildcats, because they were cheap and what I had. I found that the high velocity swaged bullets upset some and killed them well. The pointy target velocity rounds were not so good with body shots.

[Leftoverdj]

Naw, my costs for components ain't changed and ain't gonna change. I just might possibly live long enough to need more primers, but everything else I got.

I know all about people killing grizzlies with .22 lr, but I also know about squirrels getting away after solid chest hits with .22 high velocity hollow points. I'm with 35 Remington on one thing, though. The .25-20 is a superb small game cartridge.

[armyrat1970]

You can hunt deer in LA with a .22lr?

Not to my knowledge but the incident I was talking about was when I lived in Southwest Texas during the mid to late '80s. Can you hunt deer in Southwest Texas with a 22? Don't think so, but I was hungry for meat at the time and it proved to be a good one shot kill. Many may be sceptical about the results but since I am the one that pulled the trigger, I have no doubts.
Newtire and 35remington, I have hunted many squrriel, and 'bits and ducks. Shot a squrriel at less than 10ft. before with a 20guage and knocked it out of the tree. When it hit the ground it took off running. I shot it again and it started crawling away. I finally smashed it's head with the butt of the shotgun. It had a hole around the size of a quarter in it's side but it did not hardly slow it down. Squrriels are much tougher than 'bits. You can hit a 'bit with just a few pellets and drop it. Ducks are another story. My best day I fired 13 shots. Knocked 11 ducks out of the sky and brought 9 back to the camp. All with an old Remington 410 semiauto. Dropped a large Canvasback that was flying so high I didn't even think I would hit it. Thought twice before I took the shot but it went back to the camp with me. No brag. Just fact. Shot placement in everything is the single most important key factor.

[qajaq59]

We used .22s for squirrels rabbits and racoons, but for anything like a big old hog I want something bigger. Squirrels may bite but they wont kill you. lol

[35remington]

My faith in the long rifle isn't high enough to be shooting over 10-15 lb critters with it. I know the difficult shot can sometimes be pulled off with it, but sometimes isn't certain enough for me.

army, I think with good selection of ammo a long rifle can work well even on tough fox squirrels and have proven that to myself, but (and alluding to the previous post) the raccoon is overmatching the long rifle.

Many's the time I've heard the round go plunk and the critter just keeps on moving. The hole it makes through vital tissue is just not enough to bleed them out very fast, and after a few such episodes I knew I needed more gun. I know many guys believe in head shooting everything with the long rifle but like leftoverdj I'm not one of those guys. I get a reasonable shot, I take it, whatever the angle. Waiting for a chancy head shot with the long rifle when it's already marginal would lose me too much game.

If the critter you're hunting can only be killed cleanly with the long rifle by shooting it precisely in the head, well, then, the wrong gun is being used.

With the 25-20, I found "more gun." With either cast or jacketed it can kill like nobody's business, and depending upon how you load it there can be plenty of pelt left with virtually no damage aside from a small hole, or it can destroy a lot of critter with the 60 grain softpoints at high speed.

For me, that gun does it all, small game to called coyote. So I'm certainly sympathetic to the usefulness of a 158 grain .358 bullet at around 1100 fps for hunting, and I'm the type that would be trying to develop such a load myself. A fellow will have to watch out for the high angle shots, though.

[qajaq59]

35 Remington, we not only used .22 lr for the racoons, we did it in the dark with pistols. And we did shoot them in the head because all we could see was the reflection of the eyes. And they never got away. To this day the sights on my Ruger are still painted white.

[35remington]

Thank goodness the Ruger has a quick repeat fire capability and that the raccoons were cornered relatively stationary in a tree, is all I can say.

I'm sure you needed the spare rounds in the magazine as a long rifle chambered pistol is not exactly the last word in killing power, and from my own knowledge of shooting a pistol the rounds are often not placed as exactly as they must be (in the head) to cause the long rifle to kill coon quickly. I know exactly what a long rifle (even from a pistol) does to a body shot coon, and it ain't much. Any shot that misses the head to strike the body becomes a slowly killing one with the long rifle. I have no doubt that shooting in the dark at the small head of a coon frequently called for backup shots to be used.

I've two Ruger Mk II's myself, one iron sighted and one red dot.

My 25-20 is a single shot, and a single shot is all that is needed when the body's the target, as it's both easy to hit and the round has ample power. A single shot long rifle used on raccoon at night would leave me feeling decidedly underprepared.

If you were forced to shoot coon in the body, as I am, I know you'd agree. Oftentimes the head is a poor target, and I carry a gun that allows body shots to work.

The long rifle flunks that essential test for me, quite badly.

[qajaq59]

If you say so who am I to argue? -40-

[beagle]

Getting back to the original question. I have a M1894 .357 Marlin as well and use it in leiu of a .22 LR. I use a 358477HP or even better feeding is the RCBS 38-158-CM HP. Erik can do either for you. Makes a great little shooter with hot .38 Specials.

At the old primer/powder costs, you're right, they are cheaper to shoot than a .22 LR but maybe not now.

You're thinking is right on though and that's a good mould modification. Stay away from the 358156 because of the GC cost unless you plan to remove the GC shank which works pretty good too./beagle

[armyrat1970]

I am in no way saying the 22LR is a caliber of choice for deer but it is a round that is underestimated by many. For a brush gun I would rather a 357, 41 or 44, or 30-30 lever. For open long range shots the 308, 30-06 or 270. Of course there are other calibers that work just as well.

[PA Shootist]

The cost of the .22 LR ammo versus the cast boolit loads in my Marlin 1894 just isn't the point at all, for me. I just enjoy more, shooting game with my home-brewed ammo and boolits. When I was a kid I shot a lot of groundhogs with the .22 LR; hit reasonably they probably all died. Many though didn't die right away, running down the hole to perish slowly. I never liked that, I have always felt we as sportsmen owe a quick and merciful death to our quarry. So cost matters only a little; slap-em-down effectiveness, and the satisfaction of using ammo I made myself, and the neat little versatile rifle, all add up to a better experience, for me. To each his own! And my rifle does pretty well with the 358429, heavy, effective flat-nose shape, very penetrating, etc., for targets, game, varmints.