Hard, White Oxidation on pure lead cores?

[Jim_Fleming]

Folks, I have a question, I think I know what I should do, but I'd like confirmation...

I have about 30 pounds of pure lead cores, that I had intended to convert into Jacked HP Bullets, or perhaps Jacketed SWC bullets, no matter about the style of copper pills...

These cores have been sitting for at least ten years. During that time about 1/2 of them have formed a seemingly hard, seemingly gritty, white oxidation on them. I didn't try scraping down to the lead. (See the attached photos.)

The question I have is simple. Should I go ahead and re-swage them into the jackets, or perhaps simple, DEWC's, or whatever...? This is perhaps the quicker way to go, but those cores .have been. waiting for me for ten years... ugh! [smilie=b:

Or should I not take the risk of damaging my swaging equipment and just remelt everything? This of course would be the safe course, because swaging dies sure as all get out aren't cheap.

Sorry about the lousy photography, it's late, and I've been breaking tail trying to get reassembled...

Thanks Gents,

[buckshot&brass]

I wonder if they would clean up in vinegar or soda water?
Just a thought.

[Caveape]

Jim,
You might try tumbling the oxide off in some worn out media that you're getting ready to throw out anyway. I can't say I would tumble it in my fresh media. However, then you have EXCESS lead dust as a result, but that's why I'd use the worn out media.

When finished with that step, I'd weigh several lots of it to see if there was any significant or inconsistent loss of weight. If so, you could just dial down your core swage by a grain or two and have cores that are like new.

I've never done it, but it just might work.

I too have been sitting on several thousand cores for my 22 jacket setup for almost 5 years now. Hope I don't run into the same problem.

Let us know what you decide to do and how well it worked.

Caveape

[Houndog]

Wash them in white vinegar and use them! That oxidation is a GOOD thing! It gives the cores the "tooth" to stay put in the jackets.

[Red River Rick]

Or should I not take the risk of damaging my swaging equipment and just remelt everything? This of course would be the safe course, because swaging dies sure as all get out aren't cheap.


Jim:

Take your own advise......................save your tooling. I wouldn't/don't run any oxidized lead cores in my dies. Melt them down.


RRR

[bohica2xo]

The white stuff is Lead Carbonate. Other oxides of lead are dark red (sometimes called litharge) brown or black.

Oxides and carbonates of lead are typically 2 to 2.5 on the Mohs scale - about as hard as a fingernail.

How were the cores stored? Carbonates take some time to form without a lot of help.

If you want to know if the cores are safe to run, polish up a piece of soft steel, and see if you can scratch the poilshed surface with one of the cores.

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

Bohica, the cores were stored in a three pound coffee can, inside of a wooden crate. Never exposed to moisture, at all. However the crates have always been stored in unheated/non-airconditioned storage.

The idea of scratching a piece of polished soft steel is excellent! I'm darn glad I posted this question, cuz thirty (30) or forty (40) heads and opinions are much better than one (1) fo' sho'!

Guy's you've all helped a lot, I feel a lot better now, because you've all helped me decide that the best thing is to simply melt them, (watching out for the fumes, of course!) and recast them.

Not to worry about the fumes too much, I'll be doing my casting out in my barn area. Very likely the smelting will be outside, since I'll be using a 150,000 BTU propane torch set up.



The white stuff is Lead Carbonate. Other oxides of lead are dark red (sometimes called litharge) brown or black.

Oxides and carbonates of lead are typically 2 to 2.5 on the Mohs scale - about as hard as a fingernail.

How were the cores stored? Carbonates take some time to form without a lot of help.

If you want to know if the cores are safe to run, polish up a piece of soft steel, and see if you can scratch the poilshed surface with one of the cores.

B.

[deltaenterprizes]

The lead carbonate was used in Dutch Boy white lead grease to lube dead centers in lathes for years before lead was considered"bad".
Benchrest shooters I know that make thier own bullets was their cores in dish detergent to for that oxide to get better bonding with the core.
I would not think that a component of a lubricant will harm your dies.

[Leadsmith]

I've taken to storing my lead in plastic bags. I think that wood and cardboard containers tend to accelerate (if not cause) the oxidation. Keeps jackets looking very shiney for many years, too.

Bob

[bohica2xo]

Jim:

Without knowing the actual composition, a quick comparison test like that is an easy answer. That is in fact the basis of a Mohs hardness test. If it will scratch Talc, it is a "1". You can carve talc with your fingernail, which is between 2 & 2.5 on the Mohs scale.

White lead is indeed a good EP lubricant, as is Litharge. Both were used on dead centers for a long time. Without knowing what exactly formed on the bullets, it is hard to be sure how it happened. A slightly acidic condition with plenty of C02 is the best way to form lead carbonate. Perhaps the wood was treated with something. Was the crate stored someplace that could pool C0 / C02?

B.

[Jim_Fleming]

This oxidation is MUCH harder than my thumbnail... Which is what brought me to abuse the good nature of you "Bullet Swaging Rascals!" :-P

That very hardness is what has made me 'gunshy' about putting the cores into my swaging equipment.

Re: Slightly acidic environments... I do know that the air in those storage rooms that I kept my stuff in for several years changed only when I would open the door to the storage rooms as needed. The Crates the cores were stored. were almost never, in the last 9-10 years, opened, if the crates had CO2 in them, it's very possible the CO2 gases were on the cores when I took them out day before yesterday.

Re: Treated Wood... The wooden crates were/are made from OSB... I'm absolutely sure that OSB is treated with a lot of chemistry, Goodness only knows what all it's treated with.

Re: Pooling CO2.... The crates had lead, lots of lead in them, they were heavy... They were always kept on the floor, they were too heavy to pick up and set on tables or anything... Some of those crates had to weigh 200 plus pounds, I know for a fact a couple of them required two strong men both hands to carry them around. If there was CO2 in the Storage Room(s) the crates very likely were filled with it.

When deltaenterprizes mentioned, good old white lead, he reminded me of where I used to use it. When I was a Pup, and had just joined the USN, (I was all of a dripping wet behind the ears 18 years old.) Down in the Engineering Compartments, we used to use White Lead on gasket material that was to be sealed between heavy valve flanges. The White Lead prevented the gaskets from sealing and sticking, becoming nearly impossible to remove. The White Lead kept the gasket material pliable and helped seal the flanges that much better.

After my tour in the Navy, and as I was taking my Apprenticeship Correspondence Courses, they mentioned using White Lead on Dead and Live Centers, to keep the tips from burning off. But they also mentioned by that time that White Lead had fallen from favor and use due to the toxicity of using lead...





Jim:

Without knowing the actual composition, a quick comparison test like that is an easy answer. That is in fact the basis of a Mohs hardness test. If it will scratch Talc, it is a "1". You can carve talc with your fingernail, which is between 2 & 2.5 on the Mohs scale.

White lead is indeed a good EP lubricant, as is Litharge. Both were used on dead centers for a long time. Without knowing what exactly formed on the bullets, it is hard to be sure how it happened. A slightly acidic condition with plenty of C02 is the best way to form lead carbonate. Perhaps the wood was treated with something. Was the crate stored someplace that could pool C0 / C02?

B.

[canyon-ghost]

Guys, I'm a welder in an idustrial shop. Anyone need any dessicant packs for storing stuff? I get them from wire-feed electrode boxes, have plenty.

Just PM me a mailing address and they're yours.

[Jim_Fleming]

That. Sir, is one helluva nice offer!!!

This is yet another reason why I fell in love with these three boards... No one can tell me, that we don't have the best damn buncha gun loving, reloading addicts, boolit casting, wackos on the whole planet!!! :killingpc :holysheep [smilie=l:




Guys, I'm a welder in an idustrial shop. Anyone need any dessicant packs for storing stuff? I get them from wire-feed electrode boxes, have plenty.

Just PM me a mailing address and they're yours.

[mold maker]

Your druggist throws away bunches of small plastic cylinders of desiccant, from the bulk med containers.
They work especially well in small air tight boxes of boolits, primers, etc. Just ask him to save them in a sealed container for you.
They can be recharged several times, at med temps, in the oven, for reuse.