Making an ideal cast boolet rifle

[Piedmont]

I would like input from the members concerning a rifle I am thinking of building.

It will be a bolt action and at least originally a .30-30 meaning a Rem 788 or Savage 340 (& maybe 840). This is to keep it cheap. Really I would like a custom Highwall. Rifles of this base case are chosen for two reasons: the capacity is low and obturation of the thin cases is easy.

Actually it just occurred to me that a single shot bolt action might be possible on any rifle chambered for the .308 or .30-06 head size. Anybody know how much work that would entail on the bolt face?

So starting with this case I could 1) keep it factory, 2) rebarrel to another cartridge based on this case head, or 3) rebarrel to .30-30 with a 1 in 14 twist and deep cut rifling just to have a perfect cast bullet rifle.

I would especially like a discussion of the cartridges and would consider anything from the standard .25-35 up but don't want an improved cartridge or a 7-30 Waters because it is an improved type.

The purpose of this rifle isn't hunting though it may in the future be used for that. The purpose is fun cast boolet shooting with a small capacity agreeable case. I'm only considering bolt actions (no levers) for easy accuracy, scope mounting, and potential for a good trigger.

[bohica2xo]

I would like input from the members concerning a rifle I am thinking of building.

It will be a bolt action and at least originally a .30-30 meaning a Rem 788 or Savage 340 (& maybe 840). This is to keep it cheap. Really I would like a custom Highwall. Rifles of this base case are chosen for two reasons: the capacity is low and obturation of the thin cases is easy.

Ok, I own a 340, and I can say it meets the "cheap" part of your criteria - but not anything else. A 788 chambered in 30-30 will not be easy to find anymore, but would be better for accuracy, scope mounting, trigger... The list of the 340's shortcomings is long.



Actually it just occurred to me that a single shot bolt action might be possible on any rifle chambered for the .308 or .30-06 head size. Anybody know how much work that would entail on the bolt face?

Now you are on the right track - sort of. The only part of the case that needs to obturate is the neck, and the quicker the better. Thin, annealed necks & shoulders do the job well. There are plenty of great rifles in the 30-06 range that will cost less. A Savage 110, any kind of '9x mauser, etc.



So starting with this case I could 1) keep it factory, 2) rebarrel to another cartridge based on this case head, or 3) rebarrel to .30-30 with a 1 in 14 twist and deep cut rifling just to have a perfect cast bullet rifle.

The 110 Savage and it's sucessors are simple to re-barrel. A mauser is not much harder. The 340 is a lot like a 110 on the re-barrel job.



I would especially like a discussion of the cartridges and would consider anything from the standard .25-35 up but don't want an improved cartridge or a 7-30 Waters because it is an improved type.

Ok. Are you stuck on .30 cal? Big lead is always more fun, and the increase in bore size opens up more cases as the bore area to capacity ratio shifts. A 308x1.5 makes a good lead cartridge, but a 358 win is better. A 308 opened up to .375 is a lot of fun too. I have a wildcat called a 10x51 - it is a 308w opened up to 10mm A great lead flinger.

If you go with a 110 Savage you are wide open. Swap the standard bolt head with a magnum, and chamber a barrel in .458x2". Or go the other way, and run a 7TCU barrel & the little bolt head...



The purpose of this rifle isn't hunting though it may in the future be used for that. The purpose is fun cast boolet shooting with a small capacity agreeable case. I'm only considering bolt actions (no levers) for easy accuracy, scope mounting, and potential for a good trigger.

Scope mounting on a 340 is a crappy side mount, and the action is as stiff as a wet noodle with that big slot on top. Good trigger? I worked a long time on the 340 trigger, and any 10/22 still has a better trigger.

B.

[Piedmont]

Bohica, Actually I may have a line on the 788. Yes I am pretty much wedded to the .30-30 case instead of something like a shortened .308. If I wanted big and powerful I think I would just do a .358 off of any short action.

The .35/30 is a possibility but I think I vaguely remember Ed Harris writing there were some magazine problems when the neck was that large (he owned one, I think).

[jhrosier]

Piedmont,

I made my cast boolit rifle a 30-221 (.300 Whisper)

I have not been able to use it due to an injury, but I finally got to cast some more boolits and it will be going to the rangge again this coming weekend.:bigsmyl2:

Here is the thread that I started back then with some info on the gun.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=55952


Jack

[Dale53]

I have been active in the American Single Shot Rifle Ass'n for several years. The winning guns are .30 - .32 with an occasional .25 moving in. The capacity for the .32 is the .32 Miller Short or the similar .32/.357 Dell. The rules demand a plain base bullet only. Recoil is slight and the accuracy in a good platform (I have a Peregrine actioned rifle in the .32/.357 Dell). My rifle is a genuine half minute rifle at 200 yards. Oh, by the way, those are ten shot groups.

Jim Borton has been setting the range afire with a DeHaas-Miller action rifle chambered for the .32 Miller Short. Here is his first famous target (he has since beaten this several times in registered competition):

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/JimBortonsTarget.jpg

You can get a bolt action to shoot as well. However, I would suggest a shorter cartridge than the 30/30 if you want to extract the most from your rifle.

The "sweet spot" in velocity with a plain base bullet seems to be 1400-1500 fps. Powder charges are relatively light (13.0-14.0 grs of H110, WC820 or AA #9). These are wonderful rifles to shoot. They DO require a real rifleman to dope the wind and mirage but that is where the fun lies...

Dale53

[bohica2xo]

If you have a line on a 788, and will only consider the 30-30 - then you are all set.

If you want to persue the smaller side of things as Dale53 has posted, you should consider something like a 7TCU, 300Whisper etc. in a bolt action. Dies, reamers etc. all off the shelf.

I don't really consider the 10x51 to be "big & powerful" - the first one I built was in an XP-100. Now the 50 Beowulf in the AR, that is a bit more grunt. Basically a 7 pound semi-auto 45/70.

B.

[Piedmont]

Guys, Thanks for your comments. Those little cases would be lots of fun, but again, because of the platform (.30-30 M788) it would be by far simplest to base this off the .30-30 case. It doesn't have to be a .30-30 though, nd that was where I was hoping this discussion would go--to things like .25-35, .32 Special, maybe even something exotic in the wildcat line like what Forrest (a poster here) did over 20 years ago with a .30 Herrett long neck.

But I don't want to breach seat and I want it to be based off a .30-30 case. If I can get the 788 I want the cartridges to work through the magazine. I'm also thinking this will be a gas check rifle even if my velocities won't always be high, just because I think accuracy will come more easily that way. Maybe I'll get one of those gas check tools and that would be likely if this turned into something like a .25 caliber.

[Char-Gar]

Browning made one of their Winchester High Wall clones in 30-30 a few years back and called it "Traidtional Hunter". It has a pretty heavy barrel. It comes with a tank sight, but is D@T for a scope as well. The quality is excellent and the barrel is of good quality and has the 1-12 twist.

I have one and it is no trouble to get MOA groups with cast bullets. I don't know what the pure accuracy potential of this rifle is with cast bullet, but it will be sub-moa.

You could find one of these on the used market and it would not cost any more, probably less, than building a good 30-30 bolt gun.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
That term IDEAL is the catch..... I personally would not consider a caliber 30 IDEAL. I have & shoot several and DO agree caliber 30 is good BUT to me IDEAL goes beyond popping holes in paper whick I also enjoy.
I would go with the Savage 110 Rifle system system to start with. You want cheap... that is it. SWAP barrels bolts and you have it all. The 788's are not cheap anymore and rebarreling is a project... BUT the 788 has that nice FAST locktime IF that really does matter.
BUT caliber... I am a hunter 1st and IDEAL means at least a .35 and .375+ is far better. I am nearing 59. Looking under leaf bottoms and crawling on my knees to see stained grass blades no longer facinates me. I happily shoot a fatter bore which can be VERY accurate also... and let the younger eyes try to see the small little holes at 200 yards or track out that critter on a damp day over hill and dale.
Caliber 30 makes a fine rifle.... but I am more convinced BIG holes are better for my needs.

[FAsmus]

Piedmont;

I just drifted in here and there you were with a long memory about the very rifle I was going to ask the membership about!

For the record, the rifle I used for the 30 Herrett LN was/is a M70, standard in all respects with the typical glass bedding job and a 26 inch Douglas Premium. In 30 Herrett it was certainly a single shot, with the magazine blocked off with a suitably carved piece of wood.

I got around the difference in head size between the 30/30 head size and 30'06 by making a simple mandrel and cutting the rims down to 0.472. This change worked perfectly - allowing plenty of rim for extraction and normal functioning on the firing line.

I used the rifle as a Herrett for a few years and then rechambered back to 30'06, which is how it stands in my gun safe today.

My question for the membeership today is this: I shoot typically long range targets here in Wyoming, right out out to 834 yards. My load is standard stuff; RCBS 30-180-SP over 21 grains 4759, easily capible of staying on our silhouettes all the way out .. provided the wind isn't so strong as to exceed the travel of the sights that is.

Today the wind was pretty much that strong; I was out of windage by the time we got to the 500 meter Buffalo and the 570 yard Big Diamond was off the scale.

In the use of the load given above I have always seen remarkable consistency from day to day for elevations ~ until today that is. This time, the wind strong from the right all my recorded sight settings were too high and not by just a few minutes but by as much as 7 to 8 minutes at 440 yards.

What I'd like to see is feed-back from the membership about how much a right-hand twist bullet will "climb" a right-hand wind over extended range. The wind today for example was about 12 -18 mph directly from the right of the firing line.

Any ideas?

Good evening;
Forrest

[Frank46]

Actually there was a gent on the graybeard forums who modified a savage 110 for the 30-30. Bolt face was opened up. But you have to get more of the case into the barrel and that wasn't possible using a standard flat faced breech. His breech was machined into a cone like on some bench rest rifles. No problems and he's shooting 30-30 in a savage bolt action. Winchester did there installment slightly different on the win model 54 in 30-30. They left a lip on part of the chamber that was not covered by the extractor. Feeds great. Frank

[PatMarlin]

I have been active in the American Single Shot Rifle Ass'n for several years. The winning guns are .30 - .32 with an occasional .25 moving in. The capacity for the .32 is the .32 Miller Short or the similar .32/.357 Dell. The rules demand a plain base bullet only. Recoil is slight and the accuracy in a good platform (I have a Peregrine actioned rifle in the .32/.357 Dell). My rifle is a genuine half minute rifle at 200 yards. Oh, by the way, those are ten shot groups.

Jim Borton has been setting the range afire with a DeHaas-Miller action rifle chambered for the .32 Miller Short. Here is his first famous target (he has since beaten this several times in registered competition):


Dale53


Wow- very cool Dale. This is a type of cast boolit shooting I've never even heard about.

[Piedmont]

Well I was able to buy it today. Three hundred and fifty dollars with a cheap scope. Definitely a used rifle but the bore looks good and is soaking as we speak. Hmmm....wonder how a .25-35 barrel would shoot on this and I wonder whether the standard 1 in 8 twist would be best, or something slower.

[Bret4207]

Piedmont- the 25-35 is a wonderful cartridge and one I admire greatly. But- the boolit selection is limited. The best boolit I've found is a Cramer design (I forget the model #) of around 100 grs. Very nice boolit in the 25-35, 250-Sav, 257 Roberts. The lighter 25-20 boolits work fine but they lack something in the larger cases. Finding a good mould may be an issue. There's also the casting itself. Some folks have a problem getting really good boolits in the smaller calibers, so if you don't want to put the time into getting the knack of it then stay with the 30 or larger.

You have the rifle, and at a very good price too. I'd see how it shoots and go from there. No reason you can't go with a 25 or the 7x30 Waters or 35/30-30. You have all sorts of options. Now you just need time and money.

BTW- Brownells now lists an adjustable trigger for the 788. Should be a much nicer than the factory job.

[lind0001]

Great discussion so far. I would like to chime in with some of my own thoughts. I have a 788 in 30-30. I did get a new Timney trigger for it, a must-have compared to the original. Ordered straight from Timney and set by them to 1.5 lbs. Very sweet trigger and well worth the price. I have an on-going argument with the throat in the barrel of the 788--very short. Heavier bullets need to be seated deep to chamber. I do tend to single-load only, and let the cases fall down through the empty magazine well.

On another topic related to the "Ideal" cast bullet cartridge, I have a few ideas: I have thought of turning the rim of the 30-30 down to .470 and then chambering in any short-action ba rifle. I am activley looking for a Rem 700 SA.

Another design is to take the 6.8 SPC case, push the shoulder back .150 to .200, open the neck to 30 caliber, and one will have a reduced capacity, long-neck .30 caliber cast bullet cartridge. As soon as The Montana Rifle Company comes out with their short action 1999 with the .420 bolt face, I am getting one to make a rifle in just such a wildcat. Yes, reamers and dies are all needed, but it looks good on paper.

So, those are some ideas.

[smokemjoe]

I once made up a 30X30 by 1 -1/2 long case, Ran the reamer in about 1/2 way and polished the chamber up to fit the case, Cut the dies down to fit the chamber, Was good shooter in a Hoch. Joe

[roadie]

I once made up a 30X30 by 1 -1/2 long case, Ran the reamer in about 1/2 way and polished the chamber up to fit the case, Cut the dies down to fit the chamber, Was good shooter in a Hoch. Joe

I have the same idea but cutting a 30-06 chamber to where it will accept a shortened .303 British without a lot of polishing. It will come out much like JeffnNZ's .303 Pygmy.

On topic tho, is there a lot of case stretching with the 788 being it's a rear locker?

roadie

[Piedmont]

Bret4207, Thanks for the .25 advice. Keeping it as-is for a while makes sense, especially considering I have lots of .30 moulds and no .25 moulds. I didn't know that adjustable trigger was on the market either.

Lind0001, Good to hear the trigger worked so well. That little 6.8 would be fun in the standard version too, and Remington made at least a few. Lots of 7.62x39s on the market and that would be another good one in a bolt action.

Remingtons of this vintage sure had large bore dimensions. This one slugged .3045/.308. No bore ride design will be riding those short lands!

[lind0001]

Guys:

My 788 has a nice chamber. I neck size only in a Redding bushing die, and the cases show no signs of stretching. I have even fired some hot j-word loads in it, really way over 30-30 pressure levels, but the cases fall from the chamber and re-chamber without a hitch. I'd say that the action is tight and the cases, once fire-formed to fit the chamber, perform perfectly by not showing any idications of stretching. As to headspace, it is very tight, as well. I once had a used case that, among all the others, was loaded with a CB. But that one case would not chamber fully, meaning the bolt just would not go down all the way. Turns out that there was the tiniest burr on the rim of the case, where the extractor of the gun the case was fired in nicked the rim. That burr could not have been more than .001" high, a testament to the stiff action and tight headspace of the 788.

I have not slugged the barrel yet. That sounds like something I should do. The bore-riding nose of a 311299, at .301, will not enter the muzzle of the barrel, and only will enter upon being tapped with a piece of wood.

[HORNET]

roadie, The 788s a rear locker, but it's a VERY stiff rear locker. If you have problems with things stretching, you're running pressures WAY too high.
BTW, Piedmont, take a .30-30 case, run it into a 6.8 SPC sizing die. Reduced capacity, long case neck. Look at RCBS 27-150-SP published ballistic coefficient, go Hummmm???

[Houndog]

Not trying to hijack this thread and I know the OP was wanting something on a 30-30 case, but have any of you thought about something like a 30 Remington Benchrest for a cast bullet rifle, or maybe the same case bumped up to 35? The case capacity runs about 33-34 Gr. which should be slightly less than a 30-30 and it's one of the short, fat case configurations with a standard bolt face. I've got a 700 SA, a Jewell trigger and a Kelby's graphite stock I'm just itchin to barrell up for a cast bullet rifle. Opinions?

[HORNET]

Houndog, the .30 BR, usually in something around a 17" twist, is quite popular in CBA benchrest competition and the .35 version has a few followers. They seem to do very well. I'm slightly surprised that they don't get more competitors running the 7 BR but the assortment of molds and gas check availability probably enter into consideration there.
The OP could also consider one of the Wasp variants. The 6mm Wasp made a brief resurgence in J-word BR competition a couple of decades ago and would probably work with cast even with more case capacity than needed.