Some Things To Consider [Archive]

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Zeek

09-10-2009, 07:19 PM

Here are a few things that, if you factor them into your calculations/loads, might help you as much as they have helped me, at least I hope so.

Most paper-patch-type papers will compress by ~50% before the patch becomes "harder than lead alloy" (any more sizing down and the CORE is what gets smaller). So, unless you WANT your core to be smaller (e.g., to save sizing it first, then once again after wrapping the patch on), then size the dried patch by no more than half of the diameter added by the patch.

The paper "jacket" will act more like a real jacket if it is sized down to full hardness and the over-the-sized-patch diameter is groove diameter or 0.001" larger. So, if your patch is just over bore diameter without any sizing-down, then you are relying upon one heck of a lot of obturation of the core until it is large enough to crush the patch from the inside, at which point the patch will FINALLY be strong enough to take the torque of winding your bullet up to 100K+ rpm. That may be several inches down the bore. Why wait?! Set the boolit's jacket to have real strength right from the first.

Liquid is not compressible. So, if your just-dried patch gets its pores filled with liquid lube, then the patch will size VERY poorly, although its O.D. will go down. What you get, in that case, is a lube-wet hardly-compressed patch that is LOOSE over a sized-down boolit core. THAT is how a tight patch can become loose after sizing. I use a VERY light coating of SPG (BPCR lube) after the patch dries-on-tight to the core. That little bit of thick lube tends to stay on the paper's surface, so does not prevent the paper from crushing during sizing. It is also all the lube needed for shooting. The resulting jacket is glossy/waxy, very hard & tough, and is nearly waterproof.

On two-diameter rifle bullets, it can be handy to have the patch extend forward onto the boolit's (smaller-diameter) nose, so long as it does not extend so far forward that it hinders chambering the round (e.g., works on 8mm Mauser {it can extend almost all the way to just behind the point, usually}, but not on the short-throated 308 Winchester). When sizing such a boolit, the drive band section gets the majority of the sizing-down. The nose's patch-extension gets far less sizing-down, but that nose patch will get one hell of a clamp-down as the boolit enters the rifling (when fired), so that little bit of patch on the nose will act to prevent a side-ways nose slump/crash of the boolit nose (into a rifling groove, just before the muzzle) that is slightly too small to get the necessary across-the-land-top support for a well-centered stable ride down the barrel.
Regards, Zeek

docone31

09-10-2009, 08:56 PM

Zeek,
That might explain it. When I down size with my wraps, I get very stable paper jackets.
The compressibility of the paper I use I believe I am a determining factor.
Good explanation.

barrabruce

09-11-2009, 09:09 AM

Thanks Zeek very interesting reading. thankyou

Barra

leftiye

09-11-2009, 01:38 PM

Doc, IIRC you use lined notebook paper?

Hubertus

09-11-2009, 03:49 PM

Thanks, that was a good read.
Hubertus

Nrut

09-11-2009, 04:54 PM

docone31

09-11-2009, 04:59 PM

I use either lined notebook paper, or computer printer paper.
Both are at least .004, and wrap nicely. They size down nicely also.

6.5 mike

09-11-2009, 05:00 PM

1874Sharps

09-11-2009, 05:43 PM

Zeek,

A most thought provoking post, indeed! On my high velocity 30 caliber rifle loads I run the patched boolits dry with no lube through a Lee sizer. This gives a very slicked up patch using vellum paper and if the patch was a little on the loose side it tears and is thus culled out. My boolit casts with a little recess above the gas check which gives the paper jacket a place to go which helps prevent tearing on loading. This ring also gives a place for lube to go when run through a sizer that is +0.001" larger than the aforementioned Lee sizer. That is all the lube that is required (and maybe it is more than enough). My friend is going hunting bear in the great NW this weekend with this boolit in 308 Winchester and said he would send photos of the post mortem if he gets one, which I will post. (I went hunting bear once but I got so cold I wore clothes the next time). Well, so much for the corny jokes.

Zeek

09-11-2009, 07:11 PM

Excellent read Zeek.....
What kind of paper do you use?
I am using Staedtler "Mars Vellum" 100% Rag...Makes a nice shinny patched boolit...

I am having major problems feeding PP boolits in my Brno 8X57...What mold would you suggest using?..I am looking for a heavy boolit (around 220grs) as the throat is quite long...
Thanks,
Mic

I keep a stock of (and use) 16# notebook paper, plus regular (non-fancy) paper in 20#, 24#, and 28#, that have a (respective) added diameter per wrap of 0.005", 0.006", 0.007", and 0.008". With those options, I can get just about anything I want. I also use (20# but not labled as such) 3-row square-corner adhesive address labels for permanent (stay-on) patches of 1X, 2X, and 3X (the 1X overlaps the start a bit, the others are have butt-contact with the start, and all have a rectangular shape . . . no end-of-patch spiral).

Your challenge with the 8x57 may well be because of that chambering's poor throating design. The "step" connecting the chamberneck to the shallow-angle leade cone is 80 degrees per side (damn near sharp) and has a nominal I.D. of 0.327". Thus, if you have a big-groove-diameter barrel (e.g., 0.326" rather than 0.324" or so), you will have one hell of a time getting paper-patched boolits to either feed or even work. In fact you may have to switch to regular jacketed to get around the issue. One way to get around that is to hand-twist (after bottoming-it-out in the chamber) a custom 1.5-degrees-per-side throating reamer that starts (largest diameter of the cone) at ~0.335" (won't scratch your chamberneck, but will eliminate that way-nasty "mean little corner"). Once you get rid of the damn little sharp corner, there is nothing for the patch to catch on.

If you have a bunch of buddies with 8x57s, you can pitch in on such a throat reamer. It would just take a few twists of the wrist to remove that bad-boy sharp step in each of yours and your friends' rifles.

One other option is to have the front end of your paper patch dive into (terminate within) a groove on the boolit. That "hides" the delicate front end of the paper patch from the sharp edge, which then ends up NOT snagging it during chambering. However, this options limits you to whatever grooves your boolit has. Are we having fun yet? If it ain't one cotton-pick'n thaaaaang, its another!
Regards, Zeek

yondering

09-11-2009, 07:23 PM

Zeek

09-11-2009, 08:35 PM

Zeek, a very good & timely read. I just tried sizing some lee 200 gr boolits I had wrapped awhile back to see if I could get the body down without to much springback.
These drop small on the nose but correct on the body. I rolled them on my old, well use lube pad, almost dry to the touch, 1 pass through a lee .309 sizer, mic .310. The nose did drop .001 from the as rolled size. These went from .304/314 to .303/.310 with no loosening of the patch. Very slick & still tight.
These are for a hiwall in 30-40 Krag, it's bore is .301/.307. I'm trying to get the nose dia. up with out changing the mold. This is with meade tracing paper. Thanks

Here is a trick you can use in your Krag because: 1) it has a very gentle 12 degree basic (one side) transition angle from chamberneck to throating; and 2) its throating is a long leade-cone (1 degree Basic). This combo will allow you to do a Zeek trick of patching the rear end of the boolit's nose-cylinder with a 1X square-ended adhesive-label patch. The standard 1"x3" square-ended labels will be perfrect for this if cut crosswise, given that they will go around a 0.300" nose and then overlap the start end by ~50 thousandths. Without this small overlap, a 1X adhesive-label patch will tend to come off.

Remove a label from the sheet, hold it long-ways-across your front, then snip off a piece by cutting across the 1" width. Cut a piece that is as wide as your boolit's cylindrical nose portion is long, then wrap it on, free-handed (start it square-by-your-eye, then wrap it around until it overlaps the start). This is your test-nose-patch boolit. Now, let's see, in just one trial, how to get to final patch width (i.e., answer the question: How far forward of the boolit's front drive band should the nose-patch extend?).

Cut yourself a 3" long piece of 5/16" wooden dowel square on both ends (DAMN but that will prove a valuable tool to you, as you'll see). Drop the boolit point-first down into the chamber, then follow it up with your 3" long dowel section and push it home with your rifle's bolt (as if the dowel section were a cartridge). Use no more than 3-5 pounds of push-force on that bolt handle. Bear with me, now.

Clip & file the pricker-point off of a cleaner jag (so it has a flat face on the end), attach it to your cleaning rod, and run it down your barrel until it GENTLY meets the point of your boolit and stops. Using a sharp pencil, mark the muzzle location on the cleaning rod by turning the rod against the end of the pencil you are holding at the muzzle (get as close to the crown as you can). Now knock out the boolit and remove both it and the handy 3"-long push-stick, then close the action (rifle is cocked), and lower your cleaning rod down until it touches the bolt face. Lastly, mark the muzzle's new location on the cleaning rod in the same way as previously.

Here's the trick: the distance between these two marks on the cleaning rod is the exact cartricge length-over-all (LOA) that this 1X nose-patch will give, for a 3-to-5 pound chambering force. If that LOA is, say, 0.15" SHORT of your rifle's max allowable LOA (to let your cartridge function through the magazine), then all you need to do to make your nose-patched cartridges work is to shorten their width (= their cut width, as measured along the axis of the boolit's nose) of the sample nose-patch by 0.15". Your cartridges can then be loaded to the rifle's max allowable LOA (the cleaning-rod-indicated LOA minus 0.015") and you will get that slight chambering resistance (from the nose-patch's pushing into the leade cone). Thus, you get a two-variable simultaneous solution in just one quick measurement. [HINT: the Krag's max LOA is 3.089".]

Now that you have your correct (narrower) nose-patch width and the cartridge LOA to match it, mark your cross-cut locations along each 3" long piece of adhesive label, then cut and apply each in turn to the rear end of each boolit's nose cylinder. Place the adhesive-nose-patched boolits in your kitchen oven at 200F for an hour, or a bit longer, and your labels will be "cooked on" and will not tend to come off. Lubrisize your boolits as usual then load to that max LOA (cartridge length).

When you chamber a round, you will feel that slight resistance as the nose-patch settles into the leade cone, and, at the same time, your cartridges have the boolit sticking out as far as your action will allow for functioning through your rifle's magazine. I LOVE IT when that happens! The 1X nose-patch, when crushed by the land-tops, as the bullet moves forward into the rifling, will add a bit over 0.002" to the nose diameter, making it a nice way-tight fit across the land tops. The remaining un-patched forward portion of the nose will not be long enough to cause any trouble, even if it IS a bit too small in diameter for a good across-the-land-tops fit.

Because your Krag's chamberneck-to-throating transition cone is so gentle, it will never give you trouble by snagging your nose-patch during chambering. Likewise, its gentler-than-usual 1-degree-per-side leade cone will allow quite a long 1X nose patch before the patch gets so long that it inhibits chambering the round. Sooooo, THAT lovely combo means that you can put on a longish nose-patch and reap the benefits thereof. Give it a try. It can really take care of them too-small-a-nose-diameter blues, and the 1X nose patch is very quick to apply too.

As with any Krag, be DAMN sure to verify that there are no cracks at the base of its single lug, where it meets the bolt. That lug is the ONLY thing preventing that bolt from slamming back through your head, an event which would prove MOST irritating, albeit only for a short period of time ~~~> a.k.a., "Every silver lining has a cloud!"
Regards, Zeek

Zeek

09-11-2009, 08:45 PM

Good info Zeek. I patch full diameter boolits for my 35 Whelen and 30-06, and size them down. I like the hard compressed paper jacket that results from this method, and feel it leaves the paper less prone to tearing in the chamber. I use a very light smear of Hornady case sizing wax (similar to Imperial) on the paper, before sizing in the Lee push thru sizer.

FYI, the large font makes your posts really long and harder to read. It would be nice to see them in the standard font size. If that's too small for you to read, you can adjust the resolution on your monitor to make everything look bigger for you. 800x600 dpi or something like that. Just a tip.

I agree with you entirely. You are getting: 1) full-paper-patch-crush to make it into a fully-hardened wax-polished jacket; and 2) sizing down the core's diameter to suit, all in the same stroke. Thus, your boolit's hard-paper-shell-jacket resists damage and the boolit fits the barrel without even the slightest obturation's being needed beforehand. Likewise, your hard-lube-lightly-applied (prior to sizing) leaves the patch full of air, which is compressed and expelled during the sizing stroke, rather than having the patch-crush-down inhibited by trapped liquid lube. That is called, "Using your head for something besides growing hair!"

Thanks for the font-size tip, too,
Zeek

Nrut

09-12-2009, 01:54 AM

6.5 mike

09-12-2009, 11:33 AM

Zeek, good info for a springfield krag. This one is an uberti hiwall. I have the patches wrapped long on the nose, figuring to seat to the lenght I use for the 185s & trim the patch back from there. The 185 nose just engraves the riflings as it is set up now. I'm not sure if this chamber has the same lead angle as a 1898 or not. I'ld have to go check my dummy rounds to see if max col is the same as an 1898 or not, did'nt think about it before just made a dummy for each.
I've used your cleaning rod trick to figure col before. I've also used the long loaded dummy round & carefully closing the action, run a cleaning rod down bore when opening with gentle pressure on bullet to keep it in the case. Never had more difference then .001/.002 between them. Mark the bullet with a black marker where it joins the neck, if it does pull out, just reseat to mark, then measure. Should do this a couple times to ensure measurments are the same.
You've got some really good info, this is great for the people just getting started & wondering how some of these things get done. Keep it rolling, may turn into a " how to" thread.

Zeek

09-12-2009, 01:46 PM

Zeek..
Thanks for your reply on the 8X57...
I am thinking Lymans 323471 Loverin design would fit the bill as their 311407 Loverin feeds well in my .308's and I tuck the leading edge of the paper in the groove just behind the top driving band...
Now the hunt is on for a 323471 as Lyman doesn't make then any more..

Good idea (a Loverin in the 8x57). I think they still make their #323470, and the only 30cal Loverin currently listed is their #311466. One approach with either the 71 or the 70 Loverin would be to size down it to 0.320" then giving a 2X wrap of 20# (standard Xeroxing weight) paper (as-patched diameter = 0.330") and then sizing to final at 0.325" = get ALL the air out of the paper AND have it end up at the desired final diameter.

I don't know if the following would work, but, if it did, it would save work to just patch (2X using 20# paper) the as-cast (dry over-the-patch diameter = 0.335", assuming and as-cast diameter of 0.325") and then size down to 0.325". The paper would crush fully, become "harder than lead alloy," then the core would size down within the patch until the O.D. (over the patch) is 0.325". One of the beauties of the Loverin design is that "there is someplace for the leade to GO" when you size it down >>>> the bands just become a little fatter by taking up more of the room that the lube grooves used to have.

Another existing Loverin-style design, but one that would cast the desired diameter right off the bat would be NEI's .318-175-GC (cherry #86B). It would have an as-cast at 0.318" to 0.320", which is PERFECT. To give a fully-hard-as-sized-to-0.325"-diameter jacket, the 0.318" diameter would need a 2X patch of 20# paper, whereas a 0.320"-as-cast would need a 2X patch of 16# notebook paper. The blessings on THIS approach is that you only size it ONCE, and the core is left at its as-cast diameter. Added several hours later: Wow! I talked myself into it. Just ordered a two-cavity of that very mould from Joel at NEI. I may be able to wrap extra-thick to provide my 8mm Steyr with its preferred 0.331" diameter bullets, then use thinner paper for my other 8mm military pieces.

Yet another blessing from Loverin-style boolits is that they provide an EXCELLENT opportunity to "hide the front patch edge" by turning it down into one of the boolit's grooves (use your thumbnail to force it down into the groove as you turn the finish-wrapped boolit). When the turned-down-front-end patch dries and the immediately-adjacent expose patch is then sized to 0.325", it is likely to be "stong"enough, upon chambering, to even overcome the 8X57's horrible "mean little corner" chamberneck-to-throating transition step. For long-lead-cone military and similar older civilian chamberings (e.g., 6.5X55 Swedish, 7X64 Brenneke, 7X65R, 7.62X54R Russian, 7.65X53 Mauser, .303 Brit, Krag, 8X57 Mauser, 8X68S Magnum, 8mm Siamese {I have two of these} and 8mm Steyr/Hungarian), I believe it would be very hard to beat the Loverin style as the most ideal PP-boolit core ~~~> it wraps easily, and its full-diameter nose, once patched-up, fills the long leade-cone to give guidance and initial sealing.

Speaking of which, I have had only modest accuracy with the fast-twist 6.5 Swede with either normal or paper-patched cast boolits. That fast torque appears to apply quite a limitation. I am not DONE with it, but am afraid that the fast twist is inimical to desirable outcomes (for loads having useful MVs = over 1900 fps) absent a really tough metal jacket. Please make me wrong on that, if you can.
Regards, Zeek

6.5 mike

09-12-2009, 03:18 PM

Zeek, went & checked my dummys for the krags, didn't need to measure them ray charles could see the differance. Guess that's the differance between one made recently & one that's pushing 109 years old ( dec 1900).
I loaded the 5 patched boolits, tryed them in the Krag,cycled & chambered like greased glass. These would not chamber in the hiwall without trimming the patch back. Got out my little borescope, & as you pointed out, old Krag has a very long leade with a long taper. Hiwall does not, it looks more like a modren .30 cal taper. Food for thought on newer guns made in the older styles.
The patch is trimmed just enough to chamber, & catch the start of the leade. Hopefully this will be enough to support the nose. We'll see the next time at the range.