wag value of a lathe

[bedwards]

Just for starters, I know absolutely nothing about lathes except I want to learn how to use one. My neighbor has what I think is a Sheldon quick change 10"XL 56" bed length. The only distinguishing info I can find is a serial #87789 on the bed and what looks like another number S.F.W.Q.M. I have searched the internet for two days and have a Dept of Army Technical Manual TM9-3416-223-12 that appears to have this very lathe covered.
The owners husband has been dead for 10 years which is about how long it has been since its been used. It has been sitting in a shed for all this time. It is covered in dust and some rust and muskrat feces but appears to have all the parts and tools listed in the army manual including a metric gear set. There also appears to be an extra gear box? The lathe runs but needs a new belt to run for long.
I can get pics if needed. Just want a wag on a value before I jump in with both feet.
Also, can you recommend a book to learn how to operate a lathe?

thanks
be

[HeavyMetal]

One of the Brother that originally made up the Southbend Lathe company wrote a book on use of a Lathe. Long out of production copies sometimes surface on the auction sites suggest you search for one it is still the difinative book on lathe use.

As to Value? Let you consiunce be your guide. I would bracket a price range of $500 to $1500 depending on age, condtion ( I would not pay extra for Muskrat skat) and how hard it was gonna be to move it from it current resting place.

Belt might be an issue to, or not. I will say make a move pronto if your friend want it gone she will tell others!

[Char-Gar]

Sheldon made good lathes. Jump with both feet..it is only money.

[PatMarlin]

I would check for wear and see how tight it is, then if it doesn't look out jump on it. Doubt be worth more than $500 in this market. Lathes have come way down.

One thing you don't want to do is buy a worn out machine. Freind of mine bought a SB that looked good from an old timer, only to find out it was worn to New York and back. Not beat mind you -but taken care of and worn out.

[bedwards]

Well...... I'm still waiting on the owner to make up her mind what she wants for it. :-(

[38-55]

Bedwards,
Do a search for "in praise of klunkers"... If you decide the lathe is worth it ( Sheldon made a nice machine ) get a copy of "how to run a lathe".. lindsey books has it for around 9 bucks..
Stay safe
Calvin

[EKO]

Make sure all the parts are there, Sheldon parts are pretty scarce. I would not go much above $350 max for a barn find.

[3006guns]

Having purchased 10 lathes in as many years, there's one thing I've learned.....no old lathe is worth as much as the owner thinks. Reasons: It's NOT new anymore. Is it still accurate? Without proper setup and tests, niether one of you knows for sure. Anything broken or inoperative? Again, without a running test you don't know. Make her a reasonable offer based on the fact that you want a machine that can be cleaned up, oiled and run (after installing a new belt). Kinda like buying that car that "ran when it was parked".......yeah, 30 years ago. Frankly, from what you've described, an offer of $500.00 to $700.00 max. Sheldon made good machines, but it's used.

If you buy it, HIRE A FORKLIFT or wrecker truck to help you load. Don't think you can "skid it up some ramps" on to a trailer. Use heavy straps, not chains. Chains scar and break lathes. Lathes are notoriously top heavy and if it goes, it goes. Trying to stop a tipping 1800 lb. machine will get you hurt.

Once it's home and safely unloaded, use the most accurate level you can find and level the machine at all points until it's dead on. Now clean it up, make repairs and turn a piece of metal between centers. If it mics the same diameter at each end, you're in! Treasure it.:p

[scrapcan]

Check very closely for bearing wear. you can do a crude test by chicking a bar and putting and pulling up on it by hand. if you feel slop it will need new bearigns ro new spindle. Did someone say the parts are hard to find, let that be your guide.

You will have to tear it down and clean it up and relube just so you know where you are starting from

I am in this boat with a South Bend Heavy 10.

[Houndog]

I am in this boat with a South Bend Heavy 10.

The good thing about a SB H10 is that it is still being built and parts are available, but they are EXPENSIVE!!!!! you can find many good old lathes like a Sheldon, Rockwell. Atlas, Clausing and others, but parts are getting REAL hard to get.

[grumpy one]

A couple of very simple checks might help a bit. Wipe down the ways (slides) and look for strange marks or serious dents/chips. See if the longitudinal and cross slides move smoothly, and how much backlash there is in the cross slide both in the center of its movement and at the ends. If it is slack in the center but tight at the ends, the cross-screw is worn out, and probably hard to replace. If it is uniformly slack, it just needs a new nut - which you can make yourself for an exercise. Inspect the lead-screw visually, looking for visible wear in the last 15" at the left-hand end of the screw (the part that gets all the use). Turn the spindle by hand, then with the back-gear engaged, then with the feed engaged, listening for horrible sounds of broken things inside. Then a simple test that requires some thought: checking for slack in the headstock bearing at the chuck end of the spindle. I've personally never seen one that would fail manleyjt's test, but you can make it much more sensitive by clamping something to a stationary part of the lathe right above the chuck, measuring how far apart they are with feeler gauges, lifting the spindle with a lever and checking it again with the spindle lifted. Any measurable slack makes the lathe close to useless until the front bearing is repaired.

The most important check is trying to assess wear or damage to the longitudinal way. The 'strange marks' I mentioned are wear marks; you can tolerate some dings or scratches, but not wear. You can make a crude check after you've cleaned the ways properly, by chucking a piece of bar, clamping a piece of metal in the tool-holder, and checking the distance between the two with feeler guages as you move the carriage longitudinally. You have to use some imagination to do that test. A smooth, one-directional change in the dimension might be due to the chuck being imperfect (they all are) or some slack in the spindle bearing. If the dimension varies up and down, though, you are crossing a worn spot in the lathe bed.

[PatMarlin]

I bought an old 1955 Hardinge Chucker manual lathe for $500 and the ways had some scratches on it, but the carridge only got slightly tight as you cranked it all the way back to the very back longitudinal end. X-slide felt good on both ends.

The splindle bearings moved with perpetual motion by hand and felt real good, but I could tell there was bed wear, and had been used but no obvious abuse. Since my work for it was going to all be very short stock, and the price consideration I jumped on it.

Now the lathe laughs at wear and is scary accurate for what I'm doing with it.

I cringe to think I almost passed on it ...:mrgreen:

[kywoodwrkr]

If you buy it, HIRE A FORKLIFT or wrecker truck to help you load. Don't think you can "skid it up some ramps" on to a trailer. Use heavy straps, not chains. Chains scar and break lathes. Lathes are notoriously top heavy and if it goes, it goes. Trying to stop a tipping 1800 lb. machine will get you hurt.

Once it's home and safely unloaded, use the most accurate level you can find and level the machine at all points until it's dead on. Now clean it up, make repairs and turn a piece of metal between centers. If it mics the same diameter at each end, you're in! Treasure it.:p

Another reason to frequent these halls!:coffeecom
I have a 15" LaBlond to get home.
Very pertinent information for which I thank you!:drinks:
bedwards,
I'm currently enrolled in a local vocational school learning some of the things I need to know to use the lathe. They have day and night classes.

[bedwards]

ok, its the weekend and she still hasn't told me what she wants for it. I hate to make her an offer.
:-<
be

[HWooldridge]

I've owned a 10x36 Sheldon for about 20 years - I paid $1500 for it then and never regretted the decision. It came with a steady rest, 3-jaw, 4-jaw and collet chucks; and a little bit of tooling. Of course, I use mine frequently to make a bit of coin so a hobby machine might fetch less.

They are great small lathes and easily the equal of a SB, Logan, Atlas or any of the other myriad numbers of American made models no longer made. One good thing about Sheldons is that a lot of standard gears and bearings were used on them so you aren't always stuck with OEM parts if something breaks. I managed to break the main apron gear in mine many years ago and replaced it with a cataloged Browning gear that cost $40. The same gear from a Sheldon parts dealer was $250 - so it pays to shop around.

[Clark]

Finding an old minty condition lathe is possible, like finding an old minty condition car.

I have really tried.
But all the machines I bought had 4 layers of paint, and were too much trouble.
It is like most of the 50 year old cars are not a practical thing to buy to get to work.

But I gave up and sold most of my old American Iron.
I got a Chinese lathe with DRO a couple months ago.
I have cut two 7mmMag chambers in the last 24 hours.

[Trifocals]

The first thing I would recommend is to ask a skilled machinist to look at the lathe. He will be able to ascertain any problems the machine has. Try to have him look at the machine without the owner hovering over you. Get the machinist to give you his opinion of the lathes condition, his estimate to restore it, and his estimate of it's value. Buy him lunch for his time and advice. It's a small price to pay for expert advice. Don't discuss the condition, faults or value of the machine with the machinist in the presence of the owner. Should you make the decision to try to purchase the machine based on the info you have received from the machinist, go to the owner with a low offer and tell (her) your offer is based on the expert advice/opinion of the skilled machinist you had look the machine over. A low offer if accepted will allow you a cushion for unforseen repairs that may pop up. It's easier to raise an offer than to try to lower it. LOL

[PatMarlin]

A guy down south last week was moving, went bankrupt and was selling a Monarch 10EE for $1300. The machine looked real good in the pics. Love to have that lathe.

I just suffer with used stuff. I think it's a curse and old girl friend put on me or sumpthin'. Mom always said they'd get me back.. :mrgreen:

[Char-Gar]

Pat.. a Monarch is 50K new. A good used one is worth, far, far more than $1,300. I would buy it and resell it for a big profit is nothing else.

Caveat: If he went through formal bankruptcy, that lathe should be been listed on his schedule of assets. If so, he should not sell it unless under court order. If he did not schedule the lathe, a creditor might smell it out and you could be left holding the bag with no lathe.

[PatMarlin]

I agree Charles, but I couldn'd affort to tie up money in right now anyway,. Plus that would be a special surprise loosing the thing after buying it.

[bedwards]

Ok, just an update. I got the machine and tools for $600. Sppsd to move it with a boom truck and straps next week. Its really going just 50 yards or less, across the street and into my shop. Thanks for all the advice.

be

[Char-Gar]

Keep us posted on how it turns out. I love old lathes.

[bedwards]

Finally got it home today! :drinks: What a job. Also got "The Care and Operation of a Lathe" to read. I'll try to get some before and aft pics up. Now all I need to do is learn how to use it.

be

[PatMarlin]

Congrats ...:drinks:

Pics please....!

[MtGun44]

I have the same model lathe at a friend's house right now. Need to move it to my
new shop. Kinda dreading the process.

Bill

[bedwards]

Is there a sticky on how to post pics as my pics are too large to upload?

BE

[HeavyMetal]

Well done!

Glad to hear you got it home in one piece to.

Found my Southbend mounted on a piece of 1/4 inch aluminum and bolted to a solid door.

With Blankets the BIL and I managed to get it in the back of his pick up. At home I had a heavy duty rolling work table and it slid right on to that from the truck.

In the garage set it up with blocks under the table nice and steady with thw wheels off the ground and leveled. If I need to move it I just jack it up and roll!

Glad it's not a bigger lathe I'd have some trouble moving.

[bedwards]

Here's my first try at pics. They show it as found, and then cleaned up and home. Ha, it worked!!!

be

[HeavyMetal]

For a second there I didn't think ya got a tail stock for it then checked the right hand photo enlarged and there it was in the upper center of the picture along with a whole bunch of other neat stuff.

Nice deal for 600!

Take care of it and it will last at least two life times!

[swshooter]

I had been lurking on here for a long time but this post caught my interest. I am currently in research mode on learning lathe and milling machine operations. I think I can scare up some reference links. Looks like you got a great deal.
SB Lathe How To Run A Lathe is available for download here :
http://www.wswells.com/index.html
Lots of good reference and basic explanations:
http://www.jjjtrain.com/vms/library.html
Machine shop courses from the US Army:
http://opensourcemachine.org/us-army-courses
U.S. Army "Fundamentals of Machine Tools" :
http://metalwebnews.com/machine-tools/fmt.html

I will post more ( I know I have them somewhere) as soon as I can find them.
God Bless,
Dan

[bedwards]

I've been reading about them for a while trying to learn and that SBL wswells sight is as good as it gets.

Thanks for the post
be

[swshooter]

http://techtv.mit.edu/genres/24-how-to/videos/142-machine-shop-1
The MIT machine shop videos online. Not bad from what I have watched so far.

[bedwards]

one final pic before I get it dirty again, thanks again for your help

[Ernest]

What a treasure! you will have lots an lots of fun with that

[Buckshot]

..............bedwards, you should go to Pep Boys or Napa and get one of those 'drip pans' they sell to place under cars, like in a garage for drippers :-) They're light and have a small rolled up lip on'em. Place it under your lathe. I assume your lathe is bolted down? You'll need to punch holes in the pan for the bolts. After that put some silicone caulk around the feet of the bed to seal it. I'll be 100 times easier cleaning up swarf and catching oil then a wooden bench.

...............Buckshot

[bedwards]

That's a cool idea. All it came with are 2 hospital bedpans to catch junk in. The lathe is bolted to the bench, but not to the concrete. Do I need to bolt it down? It wasn't in the shed it came from. The widow's husband I bought it from used to own a marina and he used it to make shafts and other parts for Correct Craft boats. Thanks for any ideas as I'm really in the learning phase. The paint has taken days to set, but I think I can make some chips with it this weekend. My first project is to make a brass hammer as I have some brass and don't have a brass hammer!

Gee Buckshot, your on here at 2AM?
Bryan

[Char-Gar]

Shoot... I bought a large cookie pan with upturned edges at the supermarket to catch the chips and oil. I take it to the garbage can and use a paper towel to clean it into the can. Works like a champ.

I have my Logan bolted to a benchtop (32 X 72) that is made from laminated 2 x 4 stranding on edge. The frame is made from 2 x 6s. I store my lead on the bottom shelf. That puppy doesn't move when I turn on the lathe and no vibration. It is not bolted to the floor.

[ANeat]

Gee Buckshot, your on here at 2AM?
Bryan

He's in CA, they like to stay up late [smilie=1:

[bedwards]

first ever screw threads

[Buckshot]

.................Well you'd have to get the camara a bit closer to the work for me to see the threads. I do see you have a taper attachement, keeno!

..............Buckshot

[bedwards]

The threads were not a smooth as I would like. It's going to take a lot of practice. I was just happy they were threads and the nut fit! It took me 3 hours to get to that point! I know a lot more now though. The Lathe has a taper attachment, QC gears, collet attachement (just one collet though). It came with a pretty good bit of tooling too. Who would you order collets, bits and the like from?

thanks for viewing
BE

[Char-Gar]

There are two large mail/internet industrial supply houses.. MSC and Enco. Open up an account with one or both, you will need it.

[PatMarlin]

I have a very nice tailstock turret attactment for sale if anyone is interested.

I buy mostly from Enco, good prices but mainly for the free shipping on orders over $25. I do a net search every month for the latest promo code which someone always posts.

Never paid a dime of shipping yet.

[Dutchman]

The threads were not a smooth as I would like.

Unsupported stock may extend out from the chuck 2 1/2 times the diameter... or 2.5D. Half inch stock = 1.5" extended. If you centerdrill and support with a live center in the tailstock you can extend to the sunset and beyond.

Rough thread can be caused from:

- unsupported work

- tool bit below the centerline. You can use the center point in the tailstock to set your tool height.

- tool bit and/or tool holder extended too far so's there's excess vibration at the tip of the tool bit.

- poor tool bit geometry (bad grinding). excessive side & end rake.

- lathe speed too fast... or too slow. Until you get better you should be cutting threads in backgear, one of the very slow speeds. Think of a pipe threader.

- insufficient cutting oil.

- trying to thread material that's heattreated with a combination of some or all of the above.

Make sure your feed rod/leadscrew is clean and the half-nut is clean and free of chips and lubricated with oil. Same with the bed ways.



It's going to take a lot of practice. I was just happy they were threads and the nut fit! It took me 3 hours to get to that point! I know a lot more now though.

First threads I cut in 1979 on the antique Von Wyck lathe looked nice. Went to thread a nut on the shaft and it wouldn't go. Stood there and looked at it for the longest time and realized.....
I cut a left-hand thread. Dohhhh!



Who would you order collets, bits and the like from?

MSC (Manhatten Supply Co.) owns Enco. MSC has much higher prices. MSC also has a much larger catalog. I use Enco for nearly everything. With Enco being in Fernly, Neveda I can, on a good day with a waxing moon, get things the next day as I seem to live next to a worm hole (Interstate 5). I also, like Pat, order only when I have $100 worth of stuff so shipping is free. I've cost Enco more money than you can imagine :). I can spend hundred dollar bills like they were 5 dollar bills.

Enco owns SPI - Swiss Precision Instruments (better quality Chinese.. ). I've bought a couple SPI items and they are a cut above the norm.

A home machinist can't afford NOT to buy Chinese so get used to the idea.
Same goes for ebay. Sellers on ebay I've had multiple successful purchases from:

800watt (first choise)
http://shop.ebay.com/800watt/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

aztool-jerry
http://shop.ebay.com/aztool-jerry/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

LATHEMASTER AUCTION SPECIALS (I've not bought from him but wouldn't hesistate)
http://shop.ebay.com/bobbrla/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

Discount Machine
http://shop.ebay.com/discount_machine/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

drillandreamerstore
http://shop.ebay.com/drillandreamerstore/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

Equipment Sales and Surplus (mostly Jet surplus stuff.. cheap)
http://shop.ebay.com/eqss1/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

lakesidetool
http://shop.ebay.com/lakesidetool/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

pits_online
http://shop.ebay.com/pits_online/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

tapsandmore
http://shop.ebay.com/tapsandmore/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

weldfabulous
http://shop.ebay.com/weldfabulous/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_from=&_ipg=25

Dutch

[bedwards]

That was 1/2 stock unsupported at least 2.5 inches, so... that's probably most of it. I noticed a lot of flex when I was cutting the threads. I have a tailstock, but what is a live center?

be

[Char-Gar]

I take it ou know what a tailstock center is and what it is for. They come in two types...dead and live.

A dead center is just a piece of hardned tool steel ground to a 60 degree angle with a morse taper on the end that fits into the tail stock. In use ,you put some grease on this and the work in the lathe is held centered and it spins on the greased dead center. The end of the work generates allot of heat and it doesn't take much heat to burn the dead center. They are however cheap.

A live center does the same thing except the front part that engages the work spins on bearings with the work. They can be used at much higher speeds and last much much longer. They do however cost a bunch more money. You can get them from $30 to $300. A guy like you and me can get by with a live center in the $75.00 to $100.00 range.

You need to be advised this lathe thing can become addictive and you can spend a small fortune in tooling. My little Logan 9" came with all of the tooling available back in the 50's and 60's. However time marches on and I have now spent twice what I payed for the lathe on new tooling.

The original tooling was plenty good for the learning curve, but there comes a time when you want to get out of the next and fly. It is very frustrating to want to do something and not have the needed tooling. I am getting that fixed pronto. Beware oh beware!!! The lathe monster is alive and living inside every old lathe we pick up.

[bedwards]

I wanted to take machine shop years ago, but never got to. I guess its silly, but I couldn't explain to my wife how neat it was to try to make something out of metal.

I may be wrong, but I felt if I could make threads, that the rest of it wouldn't be that hard to learn.

be

[ricksplace]

The first thing I would recommend is to ask a skilled machinist to look at the lathe. He will be able to ascertain any problems the machine has. Try to have him look at the machine without the owner hovering over you. Get the machinist to give you his opinion of the lathes condition, his estimate to restore it, and his estimate of it's value. Buy him lunch for his time and advice. It's a small price to pay for expert advice. Don't discuss the condition, faults or value of the machine with the machinist in the presence of the owner. Should you make the decision to try to purchase the machine based on the info you have received from the machinist, go to the owner with a low offer and tell (her) your offer is based on the expert advice/opinion of the skilled machinist you had look the machine over. A low offer if accepted will allow you a cushion for unforseen repairs that may pop up. It's easier to raise an offer than to try to lower it. LOL

Best advice. I did this 20 years ago. The machinist told me if I didn't buy it, he would. I bought it and have never looked back.

[MtGun44]

Look into a modern tool post.

Try this to drool over. Unfortunatley they range up to well above what you paid for the
lathe, but the Chinese stuff and at a good online deal . . . .

eBay 310228816959

Looks good to me, no expert. I have used the old rocker type and then used a friends
with this style quick change post - boy is that NICE.

Bill

[deltaenterprizes]

Frank at CDCO has a similar quick change tool post for $78. His prices are hard to beat!

[PatMarlin]

Phase II is a good chicom quick tool system.

[arclight]

Nice find! For a lathe, it's best to have it bolted down to something that doesn't flex or move with humidity/etc. I would recommend either building a sturdy bench from glued-together, varnished wood or better yet, weld up a bench from 2x2" square tubing. Put levelers on each of the feet. For bonus points, fill the frame with concrete for maximum rigidity. I found that this helped a lot with chatter on my small lathe.

The thing you are trying to accomplish with bolting it down, leveling, etc is to keep the bed from being twisted. And a level machine gives you an easy plane of reference for setting things up.

If you build a new stand for it, consider putting shelves in for all of your tooling. Big things can be hung on metal pins or placed on a peg board. Also, be sure to change the oil in the crank case, lube everything and get some way oil for the bed. Chain saw bar oil will work for this in a pinch, and 30W non-detergent oil can get you started for the gears/etc unless the manual says otherwise.

Good luck!

Arclight


That's a cool idea. All it came with are 2 hospital bedpans to catch junk in. The lathe is bolted to the bench, but not to the concrete. Do I need to bolt it down? It wasn't in the shed it came from. The widow's husband I bought it from used to own a marina and he used it to make shafts and other parts for Correct Craft boats. Thanks for any ideas as I'm really in the learning phase. The paint has taken days to set, but I think I can make some chips with it this weekend. My first project is to make a brass hammer as I have some brass and don't have a brass hammer!

Gee Buckshot, your on here at 2AM?
Bryan

[arclight]

For "good but not too expensive" collets, I buy Lyndex. They are made in Poland, I think. You can order these from MSC Industrial, or wherever fine machine tools are sold. Do you have the draw bar for tightening up the collets from the back?

Do yourself a favor, and never buy cheap Chinese-made drill bits, end mills or taps. Try to get American, Swiss, Japanese, etc drills made from HSS (High Speed Steel). You can buy inexpensive 3/8" HSS blanks and grind your own lathe tool bits using a bench grinder.

You will also need a boring bar if you want to turn the insides of things. Do you have one? Oh, and order a couple of center drills.

Arclight


The threads were not a smooth as I would like. It's going to take a lot of practice. I was just happy they were threads and the nut fit! It took me 3 hours to get to that point! I know a lot more now though. The Lathe has a taper attachment, QC gears, collet attachement (just one collet though). It came with a pretty good bit of tooling too. Who would you order collets, bits and the like from?

thanks for viewing
BE

[PatMarlin]

The widow's husband I bought it from used to own a marina and he used it to make shafts and other parts for Correct Craft boats. Bryan


Lordy Correct Craft. Haven't heard that name in awhile. My parents also had a marina on the Sacramento River. I grew up there and learned to ski behind vintage Correct Craft ski boats that were built in the 50's and 60's. I was vintage then too. Those were the best times of my childhood.