Help for .45 ACP revolver for Bullseye shooting

[Mr. Smith]

I have a S&W Model 25-2 revolver in .45 ACP, the "Model of 1955." I am trying to get it to shoot decent groups at 25 and 50 yards for Bullseye competition.

My standard cast bullets for the 1911, a hard cast, bevel base, 200 gr SWC in front of 4.2 grains of Titegroup or 452AA gives me 4 to 5 inch groups at 25 yards from a Ransom Rest in this revolver. Factory jacketed 185 grain match bullets are no better. My wad gun shoots these loads very accurately.

The throats seem to be normal and not oversized. A .452" cast bullet passes through the throats with some resistance. The barrel and crown are fine; there is no leading, etc.

Any advice? I cast my own bullets and have no problems obtaining match grade accuracy in any number of .38 Special revolvers. This .45 is giving me fits.

I've read about Babe Magnum, who advocated a 220 grain blunt bullet with a fairly stiff charge of Green Dot. Not sure what bullet that was.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. I'm looking for 3" or less at 50 yards, and bearable recoil levels for the 25 yard timed and rapid fire stages.

My current thought it to cast some flat base bullets and use softer lube. All my commerical cast bullets for the 1911 have beveled bases and that hard blue wax for a lube. These 1911 bullets are also cast very hard, so I'm thinking a softer alloy might be better in the revolver.

[HWooldridge]

Might try fire lapping for 50-80 shots and see if that improves anything. You might have a constriction that is hard to see visually but still affects groups.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have the same pistol and have shot strictly target with it for many years. I cast with straight WW... semi-wads namely H&G #'s 68 and 130, but have occasionally used RCBS's 225 RN and H&G # 34. I started out using IMR 4756, but got better results with Bullseye and Red Dot using 3.5 -4.0 with the Bullseye and 4.1 grains of Red Dot with the round nose bullets. WW metal is not hard...perhaps 9-13 BHN and none of my molds listed above are bevel base; they are all plain bases. I know that there is some controversy as to which base shoots better, but my experience is only with the PB's. My 25-2 has consistently shot 1-1.5 inches at 25 yards with the semi wads and 2-3 inches at 50 yards. This is all two-hand hold- off the bench. My eyes are too old now and I'll never do better than that. With the RN's I've gotten 2-3 inches at 25 yards and 4-5 inches at 50 yards. Again I'll never do any better because of age and probably coordination is slowly slipping away. IMHO there is some relationship between what kind of powder is being used, how much of it, the velocity and the recoil. Good target revolvers and pistols are extremely fussy. My Gold cup. M-52 and 952 have driven me crazy at times. Even .22 target guns act differently with different brands of ammo. Getting back to the M25, I would suggest trying a different powder starting with Alliant Bullseye, Red Dot, Green Dot or some other choices in that burning rate zone. Going lower in MV down to 700-750fps may improve grouping. It did for me and it might be worth a try. I'm not trying to be philosophical, but guns sometimes seem to have personalities and trying to outstubborn one can prove frustrating (kinda like wimmen)...so if it isn't working then its time to stop and try something else or different. Hard lube isn't really necessary. I used 50/50 beeswax/vaseline for a long time and then NRA 50/50 Alox/beeswax; neither is hard. I have always sized at .451 and used only a taper crimp of .471"; I set the TC die to do that consistently. Hard alloy bullets tend not to obturate as well as softer ones and that may be a contributing factor in your case. I have never had this issue altho it is worth mentioning and that is the length of 45ACP cases; it is more critical in the autos than in the revolvers as one can use "moonies" to take up the slack if the cases are getting too short. No one needs more variables to play with, but that issue is of concern to some shooters. I hope that this discussion has been of some help to you in solving any or all of the problem you have. Good shooting. LLS

[GSM]

"I've read about Babe Magnum, who advocated a 220 grain blunt bullet with a fairly stiff charge of Green Dot. Not sure what bullet that was."

The article is out on the web - somewhere. I think the bullet was a modified H&G #78, straight linotype.

You are lucky if your cylinders are running 0.452". Mine are a little over - 0.455" to 0.456".

It might be that a 0.453" sized bullet would heal up the problem.

Are you using moonclips or AR brass?

Someday I'll get back to figuring out my 25.....

[Lloyd Smale]

hate to rain on your parade but ive had 4 of them and still have one and its the most accurate one ive owned and its not capable of shooting 3 inch groups at 50 with its best loads. Couple hints for you though. They tend to shoot best with harder bullets and the ones i had tended to like heavier bullets. They tend to have shallow rifling and my guess is softer alloys tend to strip through the rifliing. If i had to get you started toward finding the most accurate load in your gun id say to cast a few differnt 250-255 grain swcs that were designed for the 45 colt. Cast them with the hardest alloy you have. If your throats are right. (3 out of 4 i had were) size them to 452 and 453 to see which your gun likes best. Lube them with a soft lube and use a powder that is midrange in burning propertys. Something like 231 hp38 aa2 or even something as slow as unique or power pistol. Lots of guys claim ar brass helps accuacy but ive not found that to be the case. Mine have shot just as well with acp brass. Make sure though that you are not using mixed brass as acp brass can vary alot. Make sure your not over crimping your bullets. A light taper crimp is all it takes. Anymore and your headspace can vary. Id recomend fed primers if shooting da. Harder primers may go off but the relitively light hammer strike on a hard primer can cause inconsistancy in velocitys. Once you get a load that is exceptable. Which like i said is doubtfull at the level your looking for you can fine tune the seating dept to see what your gun likes the best. When its all said and done if you find a load that actually shoots that well please keep me in mind if you decide to sell that gun in the future. Its kind of a holy grail to me to finally find one thats a tack driver. There such a fun gun to shoot that i live with its few idiosyncracys. Me i usually shoot mine with a round nose 230 and some bullseye and live with the 2 to 3 inch 25 yard groups.

[ChuckS1]

I have an older 5 screw version and it's, hands down, the most accurate revolver I own. Unlike Lloyd's expereince, this one will shoot one hole groups at 25 yards and sub-3" groups at 50 yards with the same H&G68 loads I use in my Les Baer wadgun. I use 3.6 grains of Bullseye and WW alloy to cast my Ballisti-cast version of the H&G68 with a taper crimp. I use ACP cases with no moonclips; I just use a pencil to push the fired cases out. though the M1917 were designed form 230 grain ball ammo, these an shoot cast bullets with no problem if you keep velocity in a reasonable range, like I expect you would want to for conventional pistol. Even with my occassional forays into the Elmer Keith velecities with the 452423, I've yet to have leading in this revolver.

[Bret4207]

Fit, you need to start with the basics and that's fit. I'm not a fan of BB boolits, but people report good shooting with them. Regardless, it sounds to me like whatever size you're using now is wrong for the Smith. If your current boolits are .452 then I'd try for .453 if they'll chamber. If your gun has the shallow rifling like my S+W 1917 then you may need a slightly harder than WW boolit too. "Hardcast" tells us nothing really. Are these commercial or homecast?

[HeavyMetal]

AS Brett said please define "hardcast" for us in your case.

Fit is king in wheel guns! However alloy hardness runs second, and velocity, in target rounds, third.

So go .453 diameter, use an alloy that is in the correct BHN range ( 7 to 8 BHN), my preffered charge of 452AA has been 4.0 grains make sure you are not using a hot / magnum primer 452 hates them, If your using standard 45 auto brass get some moon or half moon clips to controll headspace and lets see what she does.

[GSM]

Mr. Smith:

See if the link works:
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/may96circle.html

Take a look at the load links on that page as well.

A piece of the article:

"Marty “Babe” Magnan of Leominster, Massachusetts, prides himself on shooting revolvers in Bullseye competition and with good cause. He was the first man to break 2,600 with a revolver in the National Championships at Camp Perry. He also was the first person to shoot above 2,650 with a revolver, a feat he has achieve four times."

That's how you do it (probably with iron sights too).

[shotman]

drop the titegroup on the wheel gun I have not done good with it till an 8 in barrel. Try bullseye or w 231. see if that dont help. I have a 610 and it will do 10" with titegroup and 2" with bullseye

[Dale53]

LoneWolf;
It is almost scary how close our experience is. I also shoot the H&G #130 (original 4 cavity mould) and the #68 H&G (mine is really a clone - a custom six cavity mould identical to an original H&G bullet). I am currently using two 625's (a 4" JM Special and a 5" standard). However, I have 100,000 rounds through a couple of 1911's with the #68. I have successfully used Saeco's #68 but it is somewhat different in profile to the H&G (I have a couple of four cavity moulds for the Saeco bullet).

The Saeco is a bevel base and both H&G's are flat base. I prefer flat base as they seem a bit more consistent.

My 625's shoot well under 1" at 25 yards and will do 2.0-2.5" at fifty yards (from a rest, of course). I have done a lot of work with a Ransom Rest. The 625's do NOT seem to be ammo sensitive. As a test, a few months ago, I shot three different bullets and two different powder charges at one target (timed fire target, standing, at 25 yards) and scored a 100x100 with 6 "x's" (who wudda thunk it:veryconfu, but it did!).. My favorite load of powder is 4.5 grs of 5066. Unfortunately, I only have about an ounce left. So, my next batch will be Clays or Red Dot (both work very well for me) and I will match up the velocity to the original load of 4.5 grs of 5066 (I expect 4.0 grs of Red Dot will do it).

FWIW
Dale53

[Larry Gibson]

As suggested by others; go to a harder cast PB'd swc of 200 to 230 gr and use 4-5 gr of Bullseye. I have been shooting M25s and M1917s since '68 and have always gotten excellent accuracy with the above combination. I've always favored a FP 200-205 gr swc cast of any alloy equal or harder than #2 (16-18 BHN), sized at .452-.453, lubed with Javelina and loaded over 4.5 gr of Bullseye (Herc or Alli) in either ACP or AR cases with no crimp. Some revolvers have wanted 5 gr of Bulseye for best accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[20nickels]

I don't own one, but my gunsmith has owned several M-25's. He says it was hit and miss if you got one with shallow rifling. Tumble lube some unsized boolits and I'll bet those groups tighten up.

[Mr. Smith]

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions.

The bullets I've been using so far are commercial cast bullet, bevel base. They are extremely hard, far harder than the wheel weight alloy I typically use for cast .38 bullets.

Does anyone know where I could find an H&G # 78 mold, or a close analog? That appears to be the mold that Magnun used with great success.

thanks again!

[ChuckS1]

Ballisti-Cast bought out H&G when Wayne Gibbs retired. I'm looking at their catalog now as I type this. The H&G 78 is catalogued as #678 (Ballist-Cast added "600" to the old H&G numbers, so H&G 78 is Ballisti-Cast #678). They also have a web site (www.ballisti-cast.com) . The price for a double cavity mold is $115. Handles are extra.

I have their #668 which is an exact clone of the H&G #68 (unlike MiHec's, which is not, BTW, but still a good mold, nonetheless). It is, without a doubt, the best mold I have. When I ordered from Ballisti-Cast, I spent 20 minutes on the phone discussing which alloy I was using, the weight I wanted, and the diameter. Two weeks later I had the mold. $115 may seem like a lot, but it's not that much more than an RCBS or Lyman mold and competitive with our group buys.

[376Steyr]

Try using 45 AR cases instead of 45 ACP. My 1955 6" shoots great with AR brass, but doesn't like the same load in 45 ACP cases and full moon clips. Mine also prefers "hard" commercial cast 200 SWCs over "soft" swaged ones.

[SHOOTER IN EXILE]

I have an older 5 screw version and it's, hands down, the most accurate revolver I own. Unlike Lloyd's expereince, this one will shoot one hole groups at 25 yards and sub-3" groups at 50 yards with the same H&G68 loads I use in my Les Baer wadgun. I use 3.6 grains of Bullseye and WW alloy to cast my Ballisti-cast version of the H&G68 with a taper crimp. I use ACP cases with no moonclips; I just use a pencil to push the fired cases out. though the M1917 were designed form 230 grain ball ammo, these an shoot cast bullets with no problem if you keep velocity in a reasonable range, like I expect you would want to for conventional pistol. Even with my occassional forays into the Elmer Keith velecities with the 452423, I've yet to have leading in this revolver.

I had the idea that my 45 ACP, 625 S&W would present some problems like for example, misfires if I don't use the full moon clips. I reload using 200 gr. round nose lead bullets and 4.5 to 5 grs. bullseye with a light crimp and did not worry about the case chambering. Sometimes, especially when testing a round I would like to load without the clips. What do You think? I don't mind to use a pencil to push out the fired case.

[44man]

Dump the bevel base first. Lead distorts when not contained and the BB is a nightmare because it can distort off center. Plays hob at the crown.
The BB is an abortion! :shock:

[StrawHat]

I have two N frames in 45 ACP. I am using the SAECO mold #453 ( 230 grain full wadcutter) and loading it over Red Dot. I had success with 4.5 grains and Mike Venturino has recommended 4.7 grains. (He also listed loads with 231 and Titegroup) If you can find that mold, or boolits , you might consider trying them. I believe a group buy for full wadcutter 45 caliber mold has been run but I do not know what weight was specified.

[Bass Ackward]

I have a S&W Model 25-2 revolver in .45 ACP, the "Model of 1955." I am trying to get it to shoot decent groups at 25 and 50 yards for Bullseye competition.

The throats seem to be normal and not oversized. A .452" cast bullet passes through the throats with some resistance. The barrel and crown are fine; there is no leading, etc.

Any advice? I cast my own bullets and have no problems obtaining match grade accuracy in any number of .38 Special revolvers. This .45 is giving me fits.

Any thoughts or suggestions are appreciated. I'm looking for 3" or less at 50 yards, and bearable recoil levels for the 25 yard timed and rapid fire stages.



I am going to approach this a little differently since you are shooting from a machine rest and won't think I am criticising your shooting. Also because you are setting a competitive standard.

Anytime I have a handgun that is shooting larger than 3" groups with cast at 25 yards, there is something fundamentally wrong. By that I mean that an essential element for shooting lead is not being full filled. All can be traced to alignment or not maintaining seal. After all, a smooth bore is capable of 3" at 25 yards.

There can be many reasons for this of which one post is not going to cover. In the end, some problems are un ..... correctable. Some simply take time. (a round count or fire lapping which is the same thing just different abrasive action) A harder bullet or a different design may fight and improve the problem where you assume that you have reached the best the gun is capable of, but a harder slug that will not deform or require less lubrication often masks the real problem.

When I have the most of my problems with cast, or jacketed for that matter, is when I ignore the problem and simply try different bullets, primers, loads or what ever logic my mind leads me to attempt out of frustration.

I would try two things.

First is some jacketed to set the standard. (Sorry, I reread the post and see that you tried this already.) If you are getting 5" with jacketed, I feel for you.

Next try a chronograph and see if you are getting low ES for what you are currently shooting. If not, then each chamber is subjecting the slug to something different.

If the jacketed met your standard and ES is .... normal, then what they are telling you to do or try may eventually be worth it but seldom to a 2 to 3" standard at 50 without a LOT of shooting. (wear)

The journey is the fun or the curse depending on your temperment / view. The expense is your time and components.

[Freischütz]

The S&W forum has had many discussions about oversized cylinder throats. I'd measure them and see where you stand.

[twildman]

When Babe Mangan broke 2600, the American Rifleman had a nice writeup on him (I wish I could remember the year...). His biggest single asset that he attributed his success to was a .454 bullet. Remembering that article saved me frustration when I acquired my 1950 .45 (aka Model 26) a couple of years back.

[sagamore-one]

I tried to fine tune loads for the 1955 Target S&W for several years.Tried almost any boolit you can mention. Tried almost every powder , primer combination imaginable. I even had a new barrel and cylinder installed.
Best results for me were ;
H&G 68 bb in Lyman #2 alloy, sized .452, lubed with NRA formula 50/50 over 6 gr of 231. Followed closely by the H&G 78, sized .452, same alloy and lube,4.5 Bullseye.
Both loads group under 2 inches at 35 yards. The 78 sized at .454 would not group well at all.

[OBXPilgrim]

When Babe Mangan broke 2600, the American Rifleman had a nice writeup on him (I wish I could remember the year...). His biggest single asset that he attributed his success to was a .454 bullet. Remembering that article saved me frustration when I acquired my 1950 .45 (aka Model 26) a couple of years back.

It's very funny that you mention .454" diameter.

I got one of Miha's fine 200gr .452 HP molds and cast up quite a few when I first got it. Long story short, I didn't get to the range for almost 6 weeks after loading them up. The ammo would not chamber in my 1911 - they did when loaded though!! But, they shot great in my 625 4" - probably the best single load I've ever fired in it. I checked some of the loose boolits when I got home, my .452" sized boolits grew to .4545" and were now 18 BHN. I'd thown a little lino in the pot and I think it's more like monotype, and then again, maybe a put a little more than I shoulda.

[Char-Gar]

Mr. Smith... Welcome to the wonderful world of 45 ACP DA sixguns. I have about a half dozen or so of them including two Smith 1955 Target Models and have owned that many more.

First of all, let me start by saying, take whatever you have learned about the 45 ACP round in the auto-pistol and set that somewhere with the label "auto-pistol" on it. The sixguns in the same round play by a different set of rules.

If you will measure your cylinder throats you will find they measure .455 to .456. Way to large for a "hard cast" bevel base bullet of .452 or .451 diameter to do good work. Commercial hard cast, BB bullet will give you nothing but frustration.

It will take a plain base cast bullet of soft to medium hardness and sized .454 -.455 to do the trick really well. Most 45 ACP molds cast bullet too small. So, it is time to think 45 Colt molds and big ones at that. a few 45 ACP designs, particularly those with a long bearing surface will do well if they are large enough. Lyman 452460 is one such design. From my mold, these drop .4535 from wheel weight. I run them through a .454 sizer just to lube them and they do OK.

At the end of the day, good old .452423 sized .454 or .455 will deliver the goods. I use Bullseye and Unique powders. I have never found that AR cases deliver better accuracy than ACP cases in clips and vise versa.

[Dframe]

My best luck with mine, is with a H&G #78, cast of WW, over bullseye. Shoots far better than I can hold, OR see with my old eyes. The most accurate revolver I've ever owned.