Range Report

[Hubertus]

Gentlemen, with the help of you all I can provide you with my first range report.
There are a lot of knowledgeable friendly people writing good tips and tricks here; it is always enjoyable to read, thank you.

The range visit had its highs and lows.
First off, I have to admit that I am not as a good shot as I though I am. OK, it was only the second time ever shooting this rifle and shooting with such a type of open sights. I am used to a scope. Anyway there is a lot more range time needed!
Second, I wanted to do all my testing on the 50 meter range. I wanted to be sure to have all shots on paper. The range belongs to a club and there are only three 100 m lanes and one 50 m lane open. The fee is very low, but one cannot reserve a range you just go there and arrange with the guys. You take a few shots and while your barrel cools down somebody else steps to the line and you take turns. That usually works well, except this time. Well I won’t go into details… In the end I could start on the 50 m but later on had to move to 100 m, therefore the results are not totally consistent. Still, in my opinion a trend was visible.


This first pic shows the “contestants”. From left to right
LEE457_340FP p/p with typewriter copy paper (average diameter .461”)
LEE457_340FP lubed with my special Felix lube derivate
LEE457_340FP p/p with cigarette paper (average diameter a bit over .459”)
H&N459_350 copper plated lead bullet
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/Range_report/Icontestants.jpg

I used the Federal factory 300 grain Hot Core as a reference, but this is not shown in the picture (I was afraid showing J-bullets here).
50 meters are 54 yd and 2.04 ', whereas 100 meters are 109 yd and 1.08 '

I know 5 shot groups are better, but with the first probe I usually take three shot groups and then if I have a sweet area I go up to 5 sometimes 10 changing the charge in small amounts.
Here are the best results I could yield with three shot groups:

Factory @ 50 meters
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/Range_report/44744e76.jpg

LEE457_340FP lubed @ 50 meters (47.5 grains)
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/Range_report/cc855126.jpg

H&N459_350 copper plated @ 50 meters (50 grains)
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/Range_report/ad27ed02.jpg

LEE457_340FP p/p with cigarette paper @ 100 meters (47.5 grains)
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/Range_report/27b66a4a.jpg

LEE457_340FP p/p with typewriter copy paper @ 100 meters (46.5 grains)
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/Range_report/56925e6d.jpg


IMR3031
WW cases
CCI200 primers
Pedersoli Rolling Block .45-70 rested on front and rear sand bags
Loads from Hogdon online cross checked with the Lyman 48th and Lee. (385 grain boolit weight data to be on the save side)
Target: reduced BPCR long range 800 yard target for 100 yard usage (courtesy of LongRangeBPCR.com)



Procedure:
The shooting was done sitting with the rifle rested on front and rear sand bags.
The sequence was first the copper plated then the lubed then the p/p.
After every 3 shot group I ran a dry patch with a way undersized patch holder through the bore. I did not want to remove or clean anything except shove out any loose particles of powder or residue to be able to inspect the bore. The copper plated showed no problems and every time the inspection showed NO leading or at least not noticeable (see cleaning).
After the factory, plated and lubed I had to move to the 100 meter lane.
At the end of the shooting day I showed the barrel to a fellow shooter and he stated:” It looks like it has not been fired”.

http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/roller.jpg
http://i823.photobucket.com/albums/zz157/Hubertus_album/roller_close.jpg

Results:
Loading for the .30-06 with J-bullets I have had best results with 85% to 95% of the max load. Following this habit I started in the upper section of the Trapdoor loads by Hogdon for the .45-70. But here the results showed that the 350 H&N likes the slightly hotter loads a bit better, whereas the LEE340 always liked the softer loadings better. Given that the range I used is quite narrow I might have to spread the area to determine other reasonable loading ranges.

For the H&N I started with 49.5 grains and went up to 51.0 grains in 0.5 grain increments, 50 grains yielded the best result – although it already started to get a little noticeable on the shoulder. The Rolling block has a brass butt plate.
Consistently the starting loads I used with the LEE340 grouped better than the subsequent ones. Unfortunately I might have started too high. For the cig pp and lubed ones I started with 47.5 grains going in increments of 0.5 grains up to 49.0. For the typewriter copy paper pp I started with 46.5 going up to 47.5. My thinking was that the thicker diameter would produce higher pressure, that’s why I reduced the charge.

It might have been a bit too enthusiastic to use the LongRangeBPCR reduced target. Fifty meters was not the issue. But it is really small going to 100 meters using the Vernier together with the front blade. My hat is off to the BP long range guys.

At 50 meters the Federal factory showed a 1” grouping. The H&N slightly larger (1” and 3/16) whereas the lubed LEE340 slightly smaller (14/16 of an inch). I am quite happy with that. The pp at 100 meters 3” for the onion skin and 3,5” for the cigarette paper is not too bad as a start but I hope I can improve on that. Again I would account the results partly to my holding and aiming capabilities or the lack of it. We will see whether this improves over time.

Now the most important thing: I’ve seen confetti!!!
I always wondered a bit about the discussions going on here how to loose the patch at the muzzle. Well it seems that I found the right spot to patch up to the nose with the cigarette paper. The first shot that I took left me smiling while I looked at a thousand small bits of cigarette paper slowly falling to the ground. The following ones did the same. Nice!
Since I patched up a little bit further with the typewriter copy paper (onion skin) it did not have the same effect. I suppose the patch is a few meters down range. But unfortunately I could not recover it, since they wouldn’t stop the whole bunch of guys shooting for a crazy one looking for a bit of paper. :rolleyes:
I thought with the thicker paper it might be safer to go a little bit up the nose not to shed it in the chamber, but rather have it being gripped by the rifling. Next time I will have it up to the same length as the cig paper and see what happens.


Cleaning:
Cleaning was over in 5 minutes. I sprayed a composite cleaning fluid into the bore past the chamber (with a nozzle, not to get too much into the chamber). Let it sit. It took 10 patches. The 10th came out white. The bore is shiny as a new dime.

Next:
I will have to load some more with lower charges. Following Lyman 48th it should be safe to go down to 43 grains and even a little bit further with the 340 grain boolit (43 grains is listed for the 330 grain boolit).
It might be better to get a front sight with inserts to improve the aiming.



Range report over, I am open for comments, as always.

Hubertus

[leftiye]

Paper patched with smokeless often shoots better at higher velocities/pressures. - Something you may not be able to do with a rolling block. But seeing that the other boolits shot well with loads in that range, maybe use a little more 3031? Paper patched does produce lower pressures than even cast GG boolits does. Also, if you've got some room in there after the powder charge is in place, maybe use a tuft of dacron to hold the powder to the rear.

[303Guy]

Great stuff!:drinks:

First off, great pics! Beautiful rifle! :Fire:

Your results mirror mine in a way. Cig paper - :( . I have been stripping the remaing cig patches off and it is actually hard to remove. I have had a test cig patch boolit with a patch of paper still on the boolit int the catch medium. Personally, I would not persue cig paper.

My findings with tracing paper leads me to think it is too strong for the loadings you are using. (Muzzle velocity too low to fragment it).

My favourite paper is lined notepad paper. For my rolling method, I use a dab of paper glue under the bottem corner to keep it from unraveling once dried. (The glue 'disappears' by the time the paper has dried). Test have shown no effect on the paper coming off at the muzzle. Printer paper does not need the glue but it is also too thick for my needs. Glue is not needed with notepad paper if the tail is folded while wet. Notepad paper seems to come off at the muzzle with quite low charges and muzzle velocity. It does come off better when the boolit is a tight fit in the bore. (My preference of paper type has a lot to do with the caliber and boolit style I am patching for). :castmine:

Just a thought, someone on this site lube-sizes his patched boolits (after patching). I don't know is thats good or bad but I would think that as long as the lube does not soak into the paper it will be fine. (Lube that soaks into the paper has the effect of 'glueing' the paper to the boolit).

I'll be looking forward to your next round of tests!:drinks:

[Hubertus]

leftiye, thanks for the tips. I was originally thinking to go down with the charge and see what it brings. But maybe I should try a few in the higher area too. You are right the plated bullets shot quite well, so maybe the little push could help with the PP too.




Your results mirror mine in a way. Cig paper - :( . I have been stripping the remaing cig patches off and it is actually hard to remove. I have had a test cig patch boolit with a patch of paper still on the boolit int the catch medium. Personally, I would not persue cig paper.

OK, it doesn't look too good now. But I am not giving up yet. 8-)
Maybe I am stubborn but I'll try one more time. I do have some heavier boolits that are bigger in diameter and I will try those as well.
The patches seemed to come off quite well, given the confetti I've seen.



My findings with tracing paper leads me to think it is too strong for the loadings you are using. (Muzzle velocity too low to fragment it).

My favourite paper is lined notepad paper. For my rolling method, I use a dab of paper glue under the bottem corner to keep it from unraveling once dried. (The glue 'disappears' by the time the paper has dried). Test have shown no effect on the paper coming off at the muzzle. Printer paper does not need the glue but it is also too thick for my needs. Glue is not needed with notepad paper if the tail is folded while wet. Notepad paper seems to come off at the muzzle with quite low charges and muzzle velocity. It does come off better when the boolit is a tight fit in the bore. (My preference of paper type has a lot to do with the caliber and boolit style I am patching for). :castmine:

I will take some notebook paper and measure it and do some test patches.
It it is not too oversized I might try it.
By thy way I was reading your 25-303 thread. Nice!!:drinks:
You and I think montana_charlie told something about dry patching.
I tried it and it works. Did you ever think about getting around the glue by just dabbing the bottom of the patched boolit onto a moist cloth or paper towel then fold it like a wet patch and dry it upright? So you have the advantage of dry patching plus the neatly folded bottom of the wet patch.




Just a thought, someone on this site lube-sizes his patched boolits (after patching). I don't know is thats good or bad but I would think that as long as the lube does not soak into the paper it will be fine. (Lube that soaks into the paper has the effect of 'glueing' the paper to the boolit).

I'll be looking forward to your next round of tests!:drinks:


I am looking forward to my next rangetime, too. But most probably not within the next two weeks. We'll see. I read about the lube-sizing but don't have the sizers. I made a scetch about a special sizer I will talk with a friend about. Maybe he can do something for me on his lathe.:-D

Hubertus

[montana_charlie]

About confetti...

Hubertus said he saw some when using his cigarette paper...but none with the tracing paper.
303Guy says he expects that muzzle velocity is too low to fragment the tracing paper.
I (and many others) use high rag content paper that closely resembles the description of Hubertus' tracing paper. We actually want as much strength as is practical.

It might help if a shooter examines his definition of 'confetti'...

The confetti thrown at a party is randomly shaped, small bits of paper that has been mechanically chopped or shredded.

Confetti from a paper patch resembles that other stuff in that it is 'small bits' as opposed to pieces that resemble half of a postage stamp...or larger.

Something as fragile as cigarette paper might well be blasted into 'dandruff' by the muzzle blast. Watching it float on the breeze would certainly bring the term 'confetti' to mind.
But, if you were to examine it under magnification...and it actually was simply blasted into smithereens...there would be little you could learn from it.
You wouldn't even know (for sure) if it came out with the bullet...or trailing along behind.

True 'confetti' (at least as I define it) would be small strips of paper that are as wide as the lands & grooves, and as long as the bearing surface of the patch/bullet. They are cut from the patch material by the egdes of the lands, and that only happens if the bullets surface passes within a thousandth (or two) of the steel...close enough for the cut to go almost all the way through the inner wrap.

Now sometimes these strips are not as long as the patch. They sometimes do get torn in half (or smaller) as they hit the atmosphere outside of the muzzle. But the parallel sides (cut by the steel) are still unmistakeable, even if the ends show they've been torn.

If you get large pieces, most usually from the inner wrap, it shows your paper is (or is verging on being) too thick for the depth of your rifling. Two wraps result in a patch thickness that is too great for the land to slice it into strips.

If you must use paper that heavy to make your bullet fit the bore, the bullet is too small in diameter. A larger bullet and thinner paper should work better in creating 'confetti'.

If the patch is cut into strips, but the individual strips are still connected at the leading edge of the patch, you are patching so far forward the bullet diameter is below bore diameter. The lands can't cut the paper (in that region) because the bullet doesn't press the paper against the steel.
End your patch right at the beginning of the ogive, and it should be cut cleanly along it's entire length.

That only leaves the base fold as something which can keep the strips connected in a 'fringe-like' configuration. That is nothing to worry about as long as that paper under the base is not 'glued' to the lead by some substance.

CM

[leftiye]

I kinda like the idea of lubing the patch a little, and sizing the patched boolit. I don't see it causing the patch to not let go of the boolit at the muzzle. Though 303 might be right that too much might glue the paper to the boolit. In this instance JPW seems like it might be a good choice.

No opinion on this is being offered, rather a question. A lot of the information on this subject seems to suggest that strength may not be needed - maybe not desireable - in the patching paper. It kinda looks like the paper gets mashed between the barrel and the boolit, and that putting some pulp in there is the issue. Kinda like mainila folder paper being made. What say youse? (not to hijack the thread)

[Lead pot]

This is what the patch should look like.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0168.jpg
And this is what you will get when everything is working for you at 200 yards.
Left target was shot with 10 rounds center 18, right 10 rounds.
The rifle is a Shiloh .44-90 BN sight a MVA scope.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0652.jpg

[303Guy]

I have a theory on why a black powder boolit should be bore sized and soft lead. There is not enough pressure between boolit core and bore to cut or shread the patch so by making the boolit small enough to obturate, it stretches the patch which facilitates the chutting action. Smokeless loads have enough pressure to shread the patch on a broove diameter boolit with harder alloy but harder alloy does not obturate vry evenly so too much obturation will detstroy the accuracy of a bore sized patched boolit. Also, the forward section of the boolit will not be able to cut the patch through as there would be on obturation there. Just a theory!:roll:

I suspect that different chambers will work differently with different papers. It seems that a 45-70 chamber will likely cut paper better than my 303 Brit because in the Brit, the boolit has to have a bore riding section which will limit the cutting of the patch up front so a weaker paper might work better.

From what montana_charlie has said, I may have finally understood why my two-groove shoots OK at close range but 'scatters' at longer ranges - the patch isn't coming off the bore riding nose well with tracing paper patches. Notepad paper patches don't have the strength to prevent cutting into the core on the driving bands. My smooth sided boolit gets its base distorted by the excessive swaging in the bore. (The two-groove is not gonna work is it?)

Hubertus, I tried wetting the folded tail of a dry wraped patch and it just unravelled before I could get to stand on its base! It seemed like a good idea though.:mrgreen: My tail folding difficulty is with wet patches - I'm too clumsy and I tend to tear the paper when I fold them wet.

Hell, this has turned into a book![smilie=1:

[Nrut]

Lead pot...
You sure have your 44-90 BN tuned in!!!
Very well done!

:drinks:

[Lead pot]

Nrut.

Yes it does shoot very good but I do have a nagging problem with it cutting paper rings with that 45 degree chamber end. I have to wipe after every shot to clear the ring out.
I'm having another one build with a reamer I had cloned from a chamber cast of an original 1877 Sharps #4 creedmoor that had a 5 degree tapered lead from the case neck wall to the 2.5 degree lead at the land.


303 Guy.
I shoot a PP bullet from .001 under bore diameter to groove diameter in some cartridges, and alloy from 1/14 to 1/40 plus some swaged pure lead.
But I cant shoot a bullet that is groove diameter in a rifle that has the 45 degree chamber end using a bottle neck case. The accuracy is just not there.
With a bullet that has to be seated below the case neck does all sorts fo crazy things, but seat the bullet base up in the case neck and it will put a smile on your face.

Well I'm not going to expand on this anymore or it will start another P-match.

Y'all have a fine day.

Lp.

[Nrut]

Nrut.

Yes it does shoot very good but I do have a nagging problem with it cutting paper rings with that 45 degree chamber end. I have to wipe after every shot to clear the ring out.
I'm having another one build with a reamer I had cloned from a chamber cast of an original 1877 Sharps #4 creedmoor that had a 5 degree tapered lead from the case neck wall to the 2.5 degree lead at the land.

Y'all have a fine day.

Lp.

Lead pot .... I am wondering why with all you BPCR shooters shooting PP these days why Shiloh and C.Sharps don't offer a "PP throat".... Or maybe they do?
One of these days we are going to have to do a thread on what would be the best PP Throat...
~ one for BP
~ one for smokeless
If that original 1877 Sharps is yours please post a picture of it...
To my eye they are one of the nicest looking Single Shots ever made..

Anyway you have a fine day also..

[Lead pot]

I do too like the 77.
No I was at a collectors show locally and saw it on a table heal sight and all but the $16,000 just made me drool.
I told him that I had a .44-90 BN and his eyes lit up and said do have some cartridges loaded that I can have for a display with this rifle and I said that I just happen to have a box full in my truck. So I gave him 5 rounds.
He wanted to buy them but I said if you ever feel brave enough to make a chamber cast I would be very grateful.
Later that year I had a cast in the mailbox and I had a reamer made from it.

LP

[montana_charlie]

Lead pot .... I am wondering why with all you BPCR shooters shooting PP these days why Shiloh and C.Sharps don't offer a "PP throat".... Or maybe they do?
One of these days we are going to have to do a thread on what would be the best PP Throat...
There was a thread like that running on the Shiloh forum up until about a week ago. The consensus that was forming (led by one Orville Loomer) is a chamber almost identical the the chamber cast Rick posted earlier.

Of course, that is about patched-to-bore and BP.

For patched-to-groove with SP, the chamber Lead pot is about to try sounds pretty good.

CM

[Lead pot]

CM

Parching to groove is nothing new to me and several others that I know.
All of the original rifles I had in the past Remington, Hepburn sporters had long tapered leads some close to .400 long that I had to load with a bullet seated a long way out and they where a different design.
These elliptical ogives, like a PP bullet with lube grooves, that would mate with the land using a long tapered lead and they shot quite well.
But a tight fitting PP slightly over bore diameter or right at groove was good also if your lead was long enough.
Some of the guys that are starting to use the PP bullet at some of these long range matches are finding that a tighter bullet will perform better but it's tough to use these tight fitting bullets with chambers that are now being used but you can get by with this breach seating the bullet like the schuetzen shooters used to do in the past and a few still do now.
But with the time limit allowed at some of the matches now it's just not practical to do so.
This chamber that is going to be in the .44 will not have a lead long enough to fully have a PP bullet of groove diameter to be seated out far enough. A 5 degree lead will only be .128 long, it would take a 3.5 degree taper to get .368 or close to that so you can patch the bullet to groove and still keep the bullet base in the case neck above the shoulder.
but a bullet patched .003 over bore will work just fine.


Lp.

[Hubertus]

[smilie=w:, there was a lot of traffic here today...
A lot of very good posts and as I am still learning and slowly moving forward on the road of PP I take in what ever I can to get better. Thank you.

Lead pot I like your pics of the “used” patches and of course the targets. Fine shooting, congratulations. I would second the humble request to post a pic of the rifle, too.

MC thank you again for the insights and your patience with a newbie.
Indeed I will try to recover as many patches as I can get, next time. It was not possible this time. What I’ve seen from the bench was small bits of paper, it looked like they where pretty equal in size and form. But that is all I can say. My reasoning was: since there was no leading and the boolits although not super accurate did hit the 100 m distant target plus I’ve seen paper bits – it might have worked the way it was supposed to.

We have been discussing the cigarette paper thing for a while. I know it might be too weak. But I wanted to try it anyway, not to proof somebody wrong but to see what I can learn from it. As you know I don’t have a sizing die yet and wanted to be on the safe side with the diameter. But as 1874 and MC proposed using the thicker paper didn’t show a pressure problem in spite of the unsized boolits. The testing definitely goes on and help/ideas are always appreciated – that’s the way to get better and progress.

For determining how far the patch should go up the nose I just used a similar method to selecting the max OAL. I used a boolit inserted it into the throat, held it in place with a dowel from the rear and gave it a light tap with my hand. Since the boolits I am using are quite soft, the lands showed marks on the nose surface. That was the point I patched up to, maybe half a millimeter higher. I measured from this mark to the bottom of the boolit and added the radius of the boolit to it. That was the patch width I was using. It folds neatly under the base and one doesn’t have to cut the excess after drying. For the thicker tracing paper I went a little bit longer, I was afraid of shearing it off. Next time it will be shorter.

303 for the “thick finger” problem… Cig paper is a real pain to work with when wet. I had to be extra careful and developed a technique like the following. As I told in the homework thread I use a magazine (Hunting Magazine) as a patching “board”.
Once you have the wet patch rolled on the boolit. I put finger tips of the flat hand on it and roll it until it reaches the end of the magazine or my hand – did this once or twice. That seemed to put the patch firmly in place. Here comes the bottom thing…I just use the thumb, middle and index finger of my left hand together. Put them together like you would want to pick up a small item. The finger tips form a funnel like recession. I did not fold the patch I just kept rolling the boolit slowly moving the base with the loose end into the finger-funnel. The fingertips touch only the rim of the base to get a nice sharp edge. The rest comes automatically. I kept rolling dabbed the now evenly folded end on a wet cloth and with a rolling motion stood it upright. Needless to say that I used my right hand to handle the boolit. [smilie=s:

It may sound difficult. Actually it is more difficult to describe it than to do it…. :veryconfu

OK, this is not new to all of you but I just wanted to describe what I found worked for me.


Hubertus

[303Guy]

... I wanted to try it anyway, not to proof somebody wrong but to see what I can learn from it.Oh yes! I do that too. It's good to find out and understand what and why things don't work! But sounds like your cig patches are working. By the way, something I tried in order to get diameter right - I wrapped a single layer of cig paper followed by the normal double wrap of lined paper. I did not range test those - no need. I got the diameter by other means (but it was fun trying it out).:mrgreen:

[Lead pot]

From the top .
.44-90 BN
.45-70
.40-70
.50-90

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b302/940Leadpot/IMG_0667.jpg

[303Guy]

Oh Wow! Those are beautiful! :Fire:

Say, Lead pot, I meant to tell you how helpful your pics of recovered patch is to me. Now I know what is likely to work. I have actually achieved that same degree of shredding but did not know whether or not is was good. Thanks! :drinks:

Oh yes, those target results deserve a .... http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/webowdown2u.gif

[runfiverun]

hubertus
if your plain ole boolit is outshooting the p/p and is not leading, why would you not pusrue the clear winner?
i mean the loads are the same, i don't see an advantage to adding the extra steps for nothing..
i understand you just wanna do it but....

[405]

Lead pot,
I don't care the load, rifle, sights.... that is very fine shooting!

[Hubertus]

Lead pot, thank you for postsing the pic - that eyecandy made my day. Nice!!

Runfiverun, you are right. It looks like the lubed boolit outshoots the p/p. If I where to go hunting with it tomorrow I would use the lubed one, of course. Only the group was shot at 55 yards, whereas the group with the patched one at 110 yards. Therfore I will have to verify the groupings again. Plus I think I might have added to the grouping by not beeing used to the sight and trigger of the new rifle. See, I just ran out of loaded lubed boolits when I had to move to the 110 yards range.
As you most probably figured, there is a part of me that just wants to tinker with PP and see whether I can get it to work.


Thanks again for all the replies and good ideas!

Hubertus

[303Guy]

Hubertus

I came across a test I did a while back with cig paper. I glued the cig paper onto the core using paper glue (not PVA) diluted slightly with water. As I recall, I wet the casting in the glue then rolled on the dry cig paper patch. After seating the boolit, I hot dipped the boolit into 'waxy-lube' then fired the boolit into my 'test tube'. Take a look.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-860F.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-863F.jpg

The glue does not adhere to lead but it does seal the paper so the 'waxy-lube' would not have penetrated the paper. I have not range tested this idea but now I might just give it a try. (Thought it might interest you).

To sorta answer runfiverun's question with a question, how do plain cast boolits in the 45-70 perform at 1000yds? (That's 910m to you, Hubertus.:mrgreen: I live in a half metric - half imperial world on my side of the planet!)

[Hubertus]

Thanks 303Guy!

I would call that a proper confetti following the definition of MC and Lead_pot.[smilie=w:
If I'd only have had the chance to get the patches collected last time at the range....:evil:


Thanks for thinking of the metric guy too :bigsmyl2:
Usually I am trying to put in imperial and metric values - makes it easier to understand each other across the Atlantic [smilie=s:
Where do you live in NZ, if I may ask?

Hubertus

[303Guy]

I'm in the North Island in a little town called .. gasp ... umm ... choke ... umm ... gag ... Auckland! There, I said it!:mrgreen: (I've been trying to keep it secret).[smilie=1:

Sorry fellow Kiwi's. I only live there. I'm not 'one of them'.:mrgreen: Hell, I'm a Hill Billy!:roll:

Kiwi's don't like Aucklanders and don't consider Auckland as 'part of New Zealand'!:mrgreen: In fact, they call Aucklanders JAFA's. That stands for 'Just Another Fine Aucklander'!:mrgreen:

Yup. I'm a metric guy too! (I even measure the mass of my powder charge in grams!):roll:

[Hubertus]

Sorry 303, I didn't want to blow your cover.

Keep posting your good thoughts and pics and I think not even the other Kiwis will take any offence.... :drinks:

Hubertus

[303Guy]

Thank you for your kind words! :drinks:

[runfiverun]

since we do shoot to 1k yds here the 45-70 does fine , maybe not as good as the 45-110 but at about the 30th shot the 45-70 does better.
something about pain..:lol:
but a 500 gr boolit at 1300 fps gets there just fine at least well enough to kill a deer or elk,if you can hit it.
with about the same energy as a regular 45 colt load at 100 yds has.
plus momentum of enegy on it's side.
we have b/p shoots here quite frequently but they are mostly at 300 yds and they are plenty acurate enough to hit bowling pins at that distance.
the oerwhelming majority are 45-70 with some goofball [me] shooting a 375 win levergun.
and another shooting an oiginal 38-55 model 94.
not a one using p/p.

[windrider919]

I just had to post as I could not stand the pain of biting my tongue any longer.

Back when I was shooting an old Springfield trapdoor 45-70 I too got confetti like shown in the pictures above. Then I decided I wanted more power and a bolt action. So I selected the .458 Winchester Magnum to be loaded to 45-100 pressures and velocities. Re-barreled a 300 Weatherby with a Shelen stainless match 4 groove 12" twist barrel. A guy at the range was so impressed with its accuracy that he offered me twice what I thought it was worth and bought it. I went into withdrawal and re-barreled / restocked a Remington 700 7mm Mag to .458WM with a Douglass 4 groove, 14" twist barrel. That too was bought off me after demonstrating its power n accuracy by a friend who wore me down. So I built my current rifle, a Ruger 77 mag action bought in 1982, 'cast bullet' barrel by Shelen with a 6 land, 18" twist.

History lesson over, now for the point. Not one of my 458s ever produced strips of confetti. Every single one produced (or produces) small flecks of paper dust except that usually the intact base paper lands between 6' to 10 ' from the muzzle. Now it should be noted that each of these barrels had /has fairly shallow land/grooves, not like seen on traditional BPCR bores. I have always used 100% cotton rag paper, two wraps for .004 thickness. The shallow rifling could not cut through this thickness. Yet the bullet sheds the patch and I get excellent accuracy. I do not disagree that the patch is cut by BPCR as used by you other posters. But I believe that in smokeless High Power rifle the muzzle blast in combination with centrifugal rotation shred the patch as soon as it leaves the muzzle. Testing years ago with squib loads for 300/400 FPS showed NO cutting of the patches in my first rifle. Only after increasing velocities up to 900FPS did the patches tear up and leave the bullets. And the faster I pushed them the tighter the groups got. I now load for 1800FPS because it does not pound me so badly but I have loaded up to 2100FPS.

It just goes to show that there are no absolutes in firearms and shooting. I just wanted anyone who reads these posts to know that their results might be different than stated earlier in this thread yet what counts is what accuracy he/she gets. Don't assume that just because you are not getting confetti you are not doing it right, for your rifle n cartridge.

[303Guy]

That's some interesting reading! Thank you both.

I want to know why the 375 Win lever gun isn't more popular. It must surely be about ideal for us Kiwi's for pig hunting! Being in this part of the world a 375-303 (303-375 to us) would be in order too. But that ain't gonna happen - except maybe for me!

[Hubertus]

Windrider, thanks for posting that.
It looks like you have had the same degree of shredding like me.
Certainly, I will be testing more p/p boolits and see what comes out.

I think MC and Leadpot are just referring to the fact that one cannot read the patch when it is destroyed.
Well the targets of Leadpot show that he does something right, which I cannot copy at the moment.
But anyway we'll see what the next range trip brings.

Hubertus

[Euan]

That's some interesting reading! Thank you both.

I want to know why the 375 Win lever gun isn't more popular. It must surely be about ideal for us Kiwi's for pig hunting! Being in this part of the world a 375-303 (303-375 to us) would be in order too. But that ain't gonna happen - except maybe for me!

Hey 303 Guy, I have 2 375/303 that have taken a lot of gameover the last 25 years or so, with both cast gc ww boolits & paper patched soft lead boolits, 1st rifle is a 1895 winchester that I rebarreled and restocked. 2nd rifle is an 1885 winchester hiwall rebarreled and restocked.
Also think Jeff in NZ even has a 375/303.
I also have and use a marlin CB 38/55. That will do for now. They are very popular rounds with me, my brother and my son.
cheers Euan.

[303Guy]

Thank's for that, Euan. I'd like to hear more about that! It obviously works for you, probably for the very same reasons I think it would work for me. Hell, of course it will work for me! (And give me a good reason to get out there and hunt piggies and other critters - yeah!)