Opened throats on my Son's GP100 [Archive]

randyrat

09-07-2009, 10:17 PM

My Son dropped off his GP100 and asked kindly if i could load cast boolits for it. The cost of shooting jacketed bullets got to him.

First things first, I loaded up some light Wcs and shot it, they were all over the paper and the barrel was leaded also.. I figured there must be something wrong here.

Next, i pushed some WCs sized .358 through each cylinder and shazzam 4 of the 6 were tight as hell, it took a hammer and a couple dowls to get them thru.

I hope i did this right. I found a dowl, made slit in it and cut some 400 grit sand paper. Then i reamed each throat out untill they all had the same ressistance pushing a sized .358 WC through.
I never would have dreamed they would be this far off. Did i do this right? Do i qualify as a back yard gunsmith or "something to be desired". Truth will be when i work up some more loads for it.

9.3X62AL

09-08-2009, 12:50 AM

Truth will be when i work up some more loads for it.

There's the bottom line. It sounds like you got it right, and it damn sure WASN'T right when you started.

Have you checked/slugged the barrel's groove diameter? That one should be "6 rights" twist pattern, so it will be easy to measure a slug with a good micrometer. Oil the bore first, then do the same process to get the groove diameter that you did to find throat dimensions.

randyrat

09-08-2009, 08:47 AM

There are 5 lands and 5 groves and it's a son of a gun to measure, so i pushed it through a .358 sizer die and found a slight ressistance. That tells me it is real close to .358....
I couldn't measure it for anything.
I oiled the bore real good and pushed a Wc through from the muzzle first. No restrictions and it didn't get stuck anywhere near the forcing cone.

I think it is ready to start working loads up for it now. I can't wait to see if this helps. Anything has to be better than it was. I'm not kidding, it took a hammer and a good pounding to push a cast, sized Wc through those 4 cylinders before i reamed them.

rvpilot76

09-09-2009, 06:51 PM

Rugers are notorious for having undersize cylinder throats. I had to have both my 45 cal cylinders done for my Bisley Blackhawk. I send them to the cylindersmith. He opened them to .4525, or a half-thousandth over what I size my cast boolits to. Works well, and everything is now uniform.

Kevin

jh45gun

09-09-2009, 07:19 PM

randyrat

09-09-2009, 08:07 PM

They are tough and you can use them as a hammer if in need. I would guess a lot of revolvers don't have perfect throats (notice i said guess) I just started playing with revolvers so i don't know that for certain. I do like the idea of not having to buy extra magazines to have on hand.

i've spent too much time playing with autos never had the time to tinker with revolvers much. Now i'm leaning toward hunting with a pistol and a big bore revolver sounds like fun. I've got a hankering for a nice 45 colt. One tough enough to handle a stout load and accurate enough to shoot dimes at 50 yds:kidding:

bob208

09-09-2009, 08:27 PM

i guess i have missed something i have oened and still own a lot of rugers and never had to work them over just shoot them a lot.

Shiloh

09-09-2009, 09:12 PM

Just one more reason I will not buy Ruger Revolvers anymore why should you have to fix THEIR mistakes.

It is a minor inconvenience to fix them. Your right, it should be quality control checked. There are a couple in our informal winter Bullseye League that shoot Very well indeed.

Shiloh

sixshot

09-09-2009, 10:09 PM

I hope you removed the cylinder from the gun first, don't mean just swinging the cylinder out but removing it & placing in a vise, I'm sure you did.

Dick

jh45gun

09-09-2009, 10:49 PM

It is a minor inconvenience to fix them. Your right, it should be quality control checked. There are a couple in our informal winter Bullseye League that shoot Very well indeed.

Shiloh

Yea but my point is Ruger does not think they even need to fix them now. How many gun magazine articles you ever read by guys like Jim Wilson and others that talk the praises of Ruger handguns AFTER they sent them to a good pistol smith? Lots of them. Of course this just reinforces the belief you want a really good Ruger send it to a gunsmith to get it fixed up right. Then there are some that never know there is an issue as they are informal shooters or plinkers and what they get is good enough they do not know the gun should shoot better than what it does they think its them. Sure some cases it is but some cases its the gun too but it never gets fixed. Then its Ruger when they do get a gun keeps it long enough that who want to bother to ever send in an other??? When I had a simple issue with my Henry, Henry's President contacted me personally, sent me a pre paid shipping label, had me ship the gun in and had it back to me in less then a week shipping paid both ways and a note saying they were sorry the problem happened and to contact them anytime for any reason. THAT is CUSTOMER SERVICE. Ruger could send out a lot better product then what they do and they could have better customer service too. There is no reason that Ruger has to keep a gun for a long time either fix it with in a week or send you a new one period. I do not have much money to spend on my hobbies and when I do I expect a good product. Sure I know any company can have a lemon but Ruger is getting a reputation for it. It is not like I have only had one bad one I have had several and for a while I stood by Ruger figuring they made a good product but after a while I seen a trend and it was not looking good. Why all the Rugers well when you do not have a lot of money and want something it is either trade off what you have or go with out. SO for a while I would trade off the guns I had and get what I wanted then feel I maybe made a mistake and get another gun like I traded off. This lead me to one conclusion if you have a good gun keep it as the next you get may not be so great. On this I have seen that it was more than true with Rugers. I have had good and bad and the bad left me feeling less then charitable in my attitude towards Ruger and its Customer Service.

randyrat

09-10-2009, 07:32 AM

I hope you removed the cylinder from the gun first, don't mean just swinging the cylinder out but removing it & placing in a vise, I'm sure you did.

Dick Well, not really..... I was carefull though. Each throat took me dang near an hour. Yeh, i'll never make a gun smith. I have a good vice with some good inserts to hold anything, i'll bet i could hold a wet noodle without harming it.
This was a very slow,even,no heat build up process. I'm guessing i took off a .001 4 of the 6 throats, maybe a touch more from a couple of them.0015. Problem is i don't have anything to measure a perfect inside diameter, thats why i used a sized bullet and feel.

Bret4207

09-10-2009, 09:47 AM

44man

09-10-2009, 10:25 AM

Yea but my point is Ruger does not think they even need to fix them now. How many gun magazine articles you ever read by guys like Jim Wilson and others that talk the praises of Ruger handguns AFTER they sent them to a good pistol smith? Lots of them. Of course this just reinforces the belief you want a really good Ruger send it to a gunsmith to get it fixed up right. Then there are some that never know there is an issue as they are informal shooters or plinkers and what they get is good enough they do not know the gun should shoot better than what it does they think its them. Sure some cases it is but some cases its the gun too but it never gets fixed. Then its Ruger when they do get a gun keeps it long enough that who want to bother to ever send in an other??? When I had a simple issue with my Henry, Henry's President contacted me personally, sent me a pre paid shipping label, had me ship the gun in and had it back to me in less then a week shipping paid both ways and a note saying they were sorry the problem happened and to contact them anytime for any reason. THAT is CUSTOMER SERVICE. Ruger could send out a lot better product then what they do and they could have better customer service too. There is no reason that Ruger has to keep a gun for a long time either fix it with in a week or send you a new one period. I do not have much money to spend on my hobbies and when I do I expect a good product. Sure I know any company can have a lemon but Ruger is getting a reputation for it. It is not like I have only had one bad one I have had several and for a while I stood by Ruger figuring they made a good product but after a while I seen a trend and it was not looking good. Why all the Rugers well when you do not have a lot of money and want something it is either trade off what you have or go with out. SO for a while I would trade off the guns I had and get what I wanted then feel I maybe made a mistake and get another gun like I traded off. This lead me to one conclusion if you have a good gun keep it as the next you get may not be so great. On this I have seen that it was more than true with Rugers. I have had good and bad and the bad left me feeling less then charitable in my attitude towards Ruger and its Customer Service.
This is not really true, they are no better or worse then any other gun maker. I have been a part time gunsmith most of my life and have built up many custom guns. I see as many problems with $2000 guns as I see with Ruger's. There are many other revolvers on the market where you need to buy 10, pick the best one and sell the rest. Some are perfect, some need a little work and some are junk. It does not matter who made them.
However, so far, the BFR revolvers have not needed anything but a trigger job.
I have been railroaded over my opinions about certain guns and I see you hate Ruger but I will not do to you what has been done to me because I respect your opinions because of some problems.
I know things about one revolver that I am not allowed to comment on, ever again! :p
The reason Ruger shows more problems is that they sell many, many more guns, not that they are getting worse.

felix

09-10-2009, 10:38 AM

44man

09-10-2009, 11:46 AM

44man, I bet you are talking about one of those Casull guns, right? I have had my share of lemon cars as well, and they all could have been fixed, but at what cost!!! Best, as you say, trade the sucker off. Brand name has nothing to do with it. It's all based upon "quality" control and how well that is supervised on an individual item basis. ... felix
True!
Yes I have had to sell guns because they did not group like I wanted them to but the average shooter would have been tickled pink. One was a Bisley Hunter. The best I could do at 50 yards was 1-1/2" It was the grip, not the gun, I just can't handle the things. It beat my knuckle but the worst thing was it was on the edge of being grip sensitive to how it was held.
I found the same with S&W 29 revolvers. If I shot five at 50 yards I could shoot 1/2" groups with my sillywet loads but if I put the gun down to repaint the target, the next 1/2" group would be 10" away from the first. I needed to super glue the grip to my hand! [smilie=b:
The most accurate revolvers I ever shot but the worst scores at sillywet that I ever shot because I had to clear and ground the gun between relays.
I will not even discuss Dan Wesson guns during the bad period.
Then I bought a new Mark II that shot the ground 10' in front of me. I could find nothing wrong, barrel was perfect, crown was perfect, gun was tight as a safe, all was straight but it shot straight down to the ground. Ruger sent me a new one and I was head shooting squirrels at 50 yards with it. I have two of them and love them. Both shoot better then most rifles.
I had a Savage 110 to sight in because it shot off to the side. I found the barrel was crooked in the receiver so I shimmed the scope because the silly thing shot less then 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Why ruin a good thing? The guy killed a ton of game with it.
I have had Remington and Sako rifles that would not shoot. TC muzzle loaders that work better if you throw them. TC pistols that kept half the copper or lead in the bore instead of on the bullets. Contenders that would not go off. S&W's that would rotate the cylinder under recoil.
I can list a million things for all guns no matter how expensive but the Ruger has still been the most reliable for the money and the BFR is beating it in spades.

jh45gun

09-10-2009, 01:04 PM

Out of all the guns I have ever owned Ruger has given me the most problems> I have owned Marlins,(never a problem) Winchesters, (never a problem) Remingtons (never a problem) Several S&Ws a Model 10 Police never an issue and a currently owned 22A (I really like this one) Savage Bolt action pistol 22 mag) (not a problem but traded it off for my Henry Rifle in 22 mag) Henry (one slight problem fixed and sent back in less than a week great customer service and the rifle has since been flawless and accurate as all get out) Ruger ( Two revovers that you could not hit the side of a barn with if you were inside. One MK one same thing very inaccurate which is strange for them. Several Ruger 10/22s that were very average in accuracy no wonder they have a cottage industry to make them better.) Several Milurps No problems functionally but several were average in accuracy but considering the usage age and wear and tear thats not bad as they had a lot more milage then a sporting arm would ever get.

So out of ALL the guns I have ever owned Ruger is the only one I have had any serious issues with. The Henry I had one problem with the hammer and Henry fixed it like I said in less than a week with stellar customer service. Unlike the complaints I have seen here on the board about Ruger taking forever to fix their mistakes. One reason I just bought a Taylors Uberti in 45 Colt a while back as I have seen great reports on their products.

Dale53

09-10-2009, 01:28 PM

I have been fortunate to have owned a rather large number of revolvers in my lifetime. I have seen guns that should have NEVER been allowed outside the factory doors in every make you can think of (Colt, S&W, etc).

I have never had to send a Ruger back to the factory. I am NOT a Ruger "Fan Boy" but have uniformly found mine, at least, to be at least GOOD and some quite a bit MORE. I just recently, I have purchased a 50th Anniversary .44 Magnum and a .44 Lipsey Special. Both of them have proper dimensions in the cylinder throats (.431"+) and they are both fine shooters (and I assure you I can shoot well enough to tell the difference).

My Bisley Vaquero had slightly undersize cylinder throats but it would easily shoot under 2" at 25 yards WITH BLACK POWDER as well as smokeless. I corrected that, finally, with a proper piloted reamer from Brownell's (owned by a good friend).

So, I guess, all in all, I have been lucky. In the interest of fairness, I will mention a good friend who bought a Red Hawk that brand new wouldn't fire. A two week round trip to the factory solved that (at no cost under warranty).

I don't know how these things get out, but they do and they do from the so-called best of the manufacturers. We just have to "buck up" and handle it. Send it back with a polite letter expressing our dissatisfaction and specifically WHY.

I have a mechanical back ground and have tinkered with my rifles, pistols and shotguns all of my life to make them WAY-Y-Y better than when they shipped.

My pet peeve with Rugers is their uniformly BAD triggers. It's a pain to have to deal with that Each and EVERY time. However, I have to look at my delivery price for my 50th Anniversary .44 Magnum - under $400.00 and with a little trigger work it is an all time GREAT classic revolver with a great tradition behind it. That's not much money for all of that. Taken care of, it'll still be truckin' when my great, great grandson needs an excellent revolver.

'Nuff said...

Dale53

dubber123

09-10-2009, 05:53 PM

The guys are all right, every company makes lemons, EVERY company. One of the first F/A articles I read by Jan Libourel had him cranking the rear sight fully to one side to zero it. Kinda tells me it was screwed together crooked. I got a run of bad Rugers, 3 or 4 in a row. I got a limited edition S&W mod 27 that I traded for a $69 Chinese SKS just to be rid of it. Taurus could get a flaming bad of dung on their doorstep from now to eternity for all I care. Oh, and my brothers Biggest, Fairly good, Revolver had a 1/4" long piece of casting flash inside the trigger guard that would slice a finger to the bone. An hour of filing and sanding, and it was fixed. The grip frame still fits so-so, and the trigger was bad, but thats all in the hand fitting. So no, no company is immune from clunkers.

rvpilot76

09-10-2009, 06:00 PM

Maybe Obama will give us a Cash For Clunkers program where we can get "fair market value" for our clunker firearms so that we can upgrade to something more reliable? LOL

bob208

09-10-2009, 06:39 PM

jh45gun

09-10-2009, 08:27 PM

i guess there are ruger lemons out there. but i have never run into one. i shot expert with a unmodified ruger. beat more then one race gun with a stock ruger.

what i do see more and more in a forms of shooting is some one gets a new to them firearm and right away they want to improve it. before they even try to shoot it.

I have never had the urge to improve a good gun but I expect that I do not have to either as it should be improved from the factory which is my main complaint with bad guns there is no excuse for it.

leftiye

09-11-2009, 01:55 PM

dsmjon

09-11-2009, 03:24 PM

outdoorfan

09-11-2009, 05:02 PM

Maybe Obama will give us a Cash For Clunkers program where we can get "fair market value" for our clunker firearms so that we can upgrade to something more reliable? LOL

Kinda funny. But some people would be stupid enough to do it. Remember, there's always "strings attached".

jh45gun

09-12-2009, 11:13 AM

Doan matter what itis - you jus' abou hafta rebuild them to have thangs right. Nunna them manufacturers have good QC. They've gotten used to making guns that get by because their guns have always "gotten by".

I don't agree with that completly Henry has good QC and if something does slip by they have the best Customer Service in the business to make sure they correct the mistake. They take a lot of pride in the guns they make.

StarMetal

09-12-2009, 12:10 PM

First, when did Ruger start using 5 groove rifling?

Okay, let's clear this up. You all believe the gun companies care about you and the product they put out. Talking to big industry leaders it has come to my attention that all it is to the gun manufacturers is...making money. I know what you will say to that...how can they make money by making inferior products and we don't buy them. Fact is many still do buy them. Here's what started it. Most the big gun manufacturers don't own themselves. Some big non related company or money structure buys them up. Good example is Cerus (spelling) own Remington, Bushmaster, DPMS, and I believe RCBS, Speer, and Federal. They are a big money business, don't care about guns. They are after the bucks. It was also brought to my attention that as soon as S&W screws up Cerus will buy them too. That's what they do, they buy companies that are failing and hurting.

All the Ruger revolvers I've owned and have are among some of the best. I've been lucky with them. I'll tell you honestly I haven't bought any "new" firearms lately because I feel the price of them are ridiculous and I won't pay it. I'll make do with the many that I own. Either that or I'll build my own such as rifles. Little harder to build your own revolver, which doesn't include the semi's like the 1911. One can build those from scratch cheaper they you can buy a match grade one.

Joe

jh45gun

09-12-2009, 01:19 PM

Well Joe glad you have had some good ones So have I but I also have had some very POOR ones which soured me on Rugers I do not own any and unless I could shoot it I would never buy an other. Considering that you cannot shoot new guns unless you buy them that lets them out and as far as used goes most folks are not going to mess with letting you do that either.

Newtire

09-28-2009, 08:42 AM

You can get a "chucking reamer" from any of the big hardware outfits like MSC. They run $15.00 or so dollars and are sized by the thousandth. If you are careful you can get the same sized throats in every hole.

Not to steal the thread but was wondering how to go about using one of those chucking reamers. My concern would be that it wouldn't have a way to pilot and the throat might come out not concentric. Is this a problem? If not, I will try that next time.

theperfessor

09-28-2009, 10:35 AM

Bret offers good advice. If you've only got a few thousandths to take out then the hole will come out as concentric as the original hole was. The bevel on the leading edge of a reamer is designed to center the reamer up in the existing hole. Secret is to make sure the reamer is square to the cylinder face/parallel to the existing chamber. Run it at moderate RPM, use a few drops of good cutting oil, and take the time to set things up right before you cut metal and you'll be fine.

jh45gun

09-28-2009, 11:38 AM

Factories are doing their best right now to keep up with demand. It's only to be expected that a certain percentage of otherwise "borderline" specifications get passed on down the line. The same reason why the last set of 9mm dies I bought had a 45cal sizer die, and 9mm expander and seater dies.

Rugers have had issues long before this latest rush to make guns to fill the demand. But you make a good point maybe the current crop of guns might be even more prone to stay away from.

Dale53

09-28-2009, 12:11 PM

9.3X62AL

09-28-2009, 01:57 PM

I've come to almost expect the need to finish building a lot of the new firearms I buy. I am VERY cautious about new firearms, and it has been a few years since any new ones have landed at my house. I can understand how disgust with a given armsmaker's wares can manifest itself in these times of questionable (absent?) QC and the pressurre to satisfy a demanding market whipped into frenzied buying due to political perceptions. I also understand corporate laziness and bean-counter management. CAVEAT EMPTOR, in other words.

wallenba

09-28-2009, 04:35 PM

i guess i have missed something i have oened and still own a lot of rugers and never had to work them over just shoot them a lot.

Me too. Never had a real problem, just griped recently that my newest one came out of the box new, fired and not cleaned. But never a real problem.

bisley45

09-28-2009, 04:41 PM

love them rugers how bowt you love them rugers yes I dooooooo:kidding:

jack19512

09-28-2009, 07:03 PM

love them rugers how bowt you love them rugers yes I dooooooo:kidding:

I have to admit that even though I have had to send a couple of them back recently I still like them. :)

Heavy lead

09-28-2009, 10:23 PM

I've had one Ruger lemon, and that was a 77 mark II in 257 Roberts. Quite a *** actually. Mostly all my Ruger handguns have been excellent although I'm a Smith and BFR fan. The one rifle I will never ever buy another, unless I plan on rebarreling from the get go is a Winchester 70, all post 64 push feed and classics I've had were simply junk, pretty, looked like a rifle should but nevertheless garbage rebuild projects one and all, with the exception of one, out of 7 purchased.
I guess I'm plagued with bad Winchesters like some are bad Rugers. Oh well. I am going to spring for one of the new Win 70 featherweight's that FN is putting out, hope I'm not disappointed.

Down South

09-30-2009, 07:49 AM

I have a GP-100 and I had to open the cylinder throats up on. I went the more expensive route and bought the reamer and bushings from Brownells. I also did an Ibok trigger job on the GP-100. Some may bash Ruger but my GP-100 is one of my favorite revolvers even if I did have to do some minor work on it. But I’ve had to work on some of my Smith’s too.

I had to open the cylinder throats up on my S&W 629. I used the dowel and fine sand paper on this one. I have a set of pin gauges so getting each throat uniform was an easy chore.

I have another Smith, a 460V and the Cylinder throats are .451”. I may send this one to Cylindersmith to open up. I haven’t decided yet. The barrel slugs at .452”.

jh45gun

09-30-2009, 12:37 PM

jh45gun;
We all know that you hate Rugers (you have posted this on all of the forums).

However, my experience has been a bit different. Yes, I have had some "less than perfect" guns from Ruger but also from Smith (I now have an S&W Performance Center revolver that won't reliably use Winchester primers - this in a Premium Hunting revolver, no less). I will correct this by "detuning" the action a bit with an original mainspring and a longer firing pin. All WILL be well.

I recently became the owner of a Ruger 50th Anniversary .44 Magnum and a Ruger .44 Lipsey Special. Other than both needing a trigger job, the are close to WONDERFUL. Both have proper dimensioned cylinder throats and both will shoot under an inch at 25 yards. These are just superb revolvers, no two ways about it.

FWIW
Dale53

I have good reason to dislike them (I would not use the word hate) and believe me I have given them their chances I have owned a lot of them over the years. In all fairness I have also said if you get a good one it is a good gun. However I think buying one is a crap shoot and that to me has become unacceptable. It is also unacceptable to me that if you buy a gun you should have to send it back or send it to some one else or if your capable yourself to fix the issues that Ruger should have taken care of in the first place. Just read how many guys here have had to either fix them or get them fixed for one reason or the other and this is only one forum. That should be unacceptable to every one who cares and is probably the reason Ruger gets by with it as enough folks do not complain.

jandbn

09-30-2009, 10:45 PM

I have been away from shooting and for over reloading 20+ years. Back then, I was a Ruger fan and still am now. Up to the end of the 80's, out of the dozen firearms I had owned, all except three were Rugers. Ruger was it for me.

Less than 2 weeks ago, I took ownership of a new Ruger Bisley 5 1/2 SS 45 LC. I was some what disappointed in the quality compared to what I used to own back in the 80's. The trigger wasn't horrible but was what I had expected with all the reading and research over the past 6 months. Exterior marks where it looked like metal had been hit with metal were not sanded off and buffed out of the frame in a couple places. One front corner of the top strap was not buffed out. There were quite a few very small nicks on sharp squared edges such of the cylinder window (most of which have been stoned away). The grip frame where one of the grip panels fit has a high spot that was not machined off so the panel rocks until grip panel is tight. I have yet to remove the high spot. There was a slight (less than .001) constriction in the bore at the barrel frame junction. But, the cylinder throats were a surprise. They were all the same at .452! I was expecting variations, but not on this out of production revolver. The trigger has been taken care with more than a few hours of careful judicious honing which I really enjoyed! I don't mind the other extra "work" either shaping things up. In fact I enjoy it. It sure beats the heck out of surfing the net and TV time.

I can sit and nit-pick all I want, but it is a Ruger, I love the aesthetic appeal (all in the eyes of the beholder), and best of all, it is MY Ruger!

Ugluk

10-18-2009, 02:11 PM

Randyrat,
How did this turn out?
I'm trying to get used to the idea that I will have to do this on my S&W14-2, as it measures 0.3565 at the cylinder throats and .358 half an inch into the barrel, and no amount of trying loads or different boolit shapes have produced 18-shot groups under 1 1/2 inch at 28yds from a ransom..

Did you (your son) get improvement in accuracy?

zt77

10-19-2009, 04:48 PM

I have had three bad experiences with taurus. That isn't going to stop me from getting them.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/smith-wesson_dark.htm
Someone doesn't like Smith and Wesson

I had a *** colt 1911 series 70 gold cup

To be completely honest, out of my 12 Ruger firearms, ranging from old model m77's to 10/22's and 50th anniversary model blackhawks I have had no problems whatsoever.

I totally agree with Henry firearms being excellent.

I have 4 kimber 1911's and have no issues with them either, though I've talked to more people that dislike them then like them.

point is every manufacturer makes bad guns sometime. my brothers kgp-100 also has small cylinder throats but it doesnt seem to affect accuracy.
then again I guess it seems to only make a huge difference if you want to shoot boolits.