First smelt today... OK or not?

[oregonshooter]

I finally decided that I wasn't going to wait for a regulated hose for the burner stand a friend sold me and bought a fish fryer setup from WalMart on sale (Labor Day) for $25.00 instead of the normal $60.00

I mounted my homemade bottom pour on it, filled it with (TOO MUCH?) lead and waited for an hour and half to get liquid. Even then I had to remove a lot of weight on top that would not melt. Seems I need either a hotter flame or need to add weights, let melt, add weights instead of all at once like I did.

Anyway, I took out the ones that were not melting, skimmed the clips, threw some vegetable oil in (too much I think, about 1/8 cup) and skimmed again mixing it before pouring the ingots below.

http://oregonshooter.com/share/first_smelt_ingots.jpg

They look OK, but got no clue. I have a hardness tester that I will try them on after I learn how to use it. :)

Just happy nothing major went wrong on my first voyage and wanted to share.

Appreciate any tips!

PS. Made a little video also.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odGcCf4qxic

[Dale53]

oregonshooter;
Congratulations on getting started! You done good!

Now, you asked for tips. Your container (bottom draw pot) would be MUCH more efficient if it was low and wide instead of narrow and tall. A lot of the heat available to you is escaping into the atmosphere instead of heating the lead (hence, the slow melt).

Here is what I use:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QWinter2009andleadsmelting-1767.jpg

It is hard to tell perspective when looking at a picture - my cast iron pot (Harbor Freight) is 12" across the top. I did not measure the height. It'll hold close to 150 lbs (probably more like a working capacity of 130 lbs or so).

At any rate, using that set up my brother and I did 650 lbs in one afternoon. Using a different but similar set up another friend and I did 1000 lbs of scrap lead in a day of work. We don't have the luxury of bottom poor (I REALLY like that) but use a Rowell ladle (#3) and have a variety of ingot moulds:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj80/Dale53/QWinter2009andleadsmelting-1769.jpg

I now have three of the angle iron type of moulds (lower left). The larger moulds REALLY help to speed up the flow of molten metal to the moulds. They are quite useful as they will easily fit into my RCBS pots. I am really HIGH on these. As you can see, I also use conventional ingot moulds (you can't have too many moulds, not possible:p).

You CAN speed up the melt by leaving molten metal in the bottom of the pot - much quicker heat transfer.

However, there are dangers in doing that. Accumulated WW's and other scrap lead can have concealed moisture (especially lead pipe can accululate ice and snow inside, etc). Introducing new metal with moisture to molten metal can cause a SERIOUS visit from the "tinsel fairy". On the other hand, starting with an empty pot, you can safely place moist or even wet pipe and other scrap in the pot and the heat as it gradually heats drives off the moisture before the lead melts and the Tinsel Fairy stays home. Your choice...

My choice, when smelting in general, is to empty the pot and starting with an empty pot just put up with the wait. I have had all of the "visits" from the TF that I need...

FWIW
Dale53

[Shiloh]

They look good to me!! That's what my lead muffins look like.
Cast em', load em', shoot em' Repeat.

What mold are you going to use??

Shiloh

[Lee W]

I would say to keep the bottom pour for making boolits. You need many BTUs and a big pot.

Soon you will be pouring many more ingots!!

(Thread from last fall's melting session.)

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=37637

[Sprue]

Your muffin pan looks like the one that I use (heavy cast iron).

My setup, I use a metal shroud to help contain the heat.

Looks like you got the bug............. Good Job!

[Cherokee]

A shorter wider pot would be more desirable to get more heat on the bottom of the pot. You should add a metal shroud like "sprue" suggested and as is shown in this pic:

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee102/DCS44256/Reloading/Smelting003.jpg

Congrats on the good start, that really looked like a nice pot you made.

[oregonshooter]

Thanks guys for the feedback. The mold is the only one I have right now and it is an old castiron deep muffin pan with 12 openings.

So these burners take a while to heat up then? I thought 30 minutes tops to melt the pot, but was way off.

I did leave the top of my melt in the bottom pour as I remember reading that it would help keep any crud out of the ingots and make the next batch faster melting pure lead to start with? Any issues with that? Moisture get into the lead or will being heated slowly drive it out also?

DALE,
how long would it take to melt that brick from a cold start on your setup?

I really like this bottom pour and it worked well, but will probably live with melting less at a time for now. I'm going to try again with a 12" pipe and say 6-8in tall when I get around to it. Also need to make some angle iron molds.

[oregonshooter]

Cherokee,
Stupid question, but that shroud has no bottom correct?

Anyone have suggestion on how much vegetable oil for fluxing back?

[TDC]

Hi Jim....

I'm glad to see you're up and running with casting. Let me know if you need anything or if I can help ya in any way..
:drinks:
Terry

[oregonshooter]

I was just reviewing my notes and found:

I just dump all of mine in the smelting pot. I do pick out the stick on WW and if I see a suspicious WW, I’ll pull it out of the mix. I smelt at a low temp. Just as soon as the melt liquidifies I start skimming the clips off. This is where I find my zinc WW's still unmelted. The Zinc WW melts at a higher temp and I keep my temp just hot enough to keep the regular WW liquid. I’ve even run test by throwing known zinc WW’s in the mix and watching them. They never melted.

I was wondering if the WWs that were not melting were zinc instead of it being a heat issue?

I'm melting another batch now and threw those weights back in at a lower volume to see if they melt.

Is the ZINC WW ratio very high on a bucket from a tire dealer? There were over 20 WWs that didn't melt in the first batch but I think it is from loss of heat as the pot was too full for the low temps on the burner.

I was nowhere near melting the clips and the color never went blue like I saw here on one guys setup which was too much heat according to members.

Will see in a few minutes I guess. The ones that didn't melt all looked like the ones that did, all shapes and sizes.

Thanks for the offer Terry!

[TDC]

Look for at least a 5% ZN, FN mix in the local WW's. That zinc contamination is getting worse every day . I hand sort every weight now visually and test consistency with pliers. I don't trust temperature alone.....

[oregonshooter]

hmmm, I might start doing the same. 40 minutes with the burner on and the port filled only 1/3 of the way and there is just barely any liquid lead in the bottom.

I'm thinking my pot is too thick and takes for ever to heat up. Is there a higher pressure regulator than the 10PSI one that comes with the turkey fryer setup?

I called Suburban Propane and asked for one but they said they only sell it to Plumbers?

[Dale53]

>>>DALE, how long would it take to melt that brick from a cold start on your setup?<<<

The first brick (it weighed 92 lbs) took nearly 45 minutes. Since these were clean, dry bricks, it was safe to leave some molten metal in the bottom of the pot to aid heat transfer and after that it only took about twenty minutes each.

The problem with adding a large brick like this is it only touches the bottom of the pot on its corners. There is not much heat transfer surface. When you leave 1-2" of molten lead in the bottom, it is MUCH quicker to melt.

WW's take about thirty minutes to melt a pot full. I am VERY careful to keep the temperature to no higher than 650 degrees to avoid possible zinc contamination.

Dale53

[oregonshooter]

Thanks! The bottom of my pot is 3/8" and without a shroud (I do have a 3" false bottom) I'm at 60 minutes now and flow is just starting to get going.

How does one measure the temp though? Reading off the top or middle? Does the temp stay even from bottom to top of molten lead?

[mold maker]

oregonshooter
Your off to a great start.
Allow me to offer a few suggestions.
Nix the veg oil. Use saw dust, fine shavings, or just stir with a fresh wooden paint paddle. (make sure its DRY dry)
Oils and waxes produce too much smoke and flash flames. Any carbon based material will do the same job.
I cut a metal 5 gal bucket to the height of my pot for a wind shield. Any thing to keep the heat against the pot sides, and from being blown away, will improve the heat transfer.
Wally World has a cooking dipper made of about 5/16" hardware cloth, that makes a great dipper for WW clips, zinc weights, or jacket material from range lead. It's about 4 dollars and is sturdy enough for the job. It does have a rubber grip that must be protected. Using it allows you to flux the dross without the clips etc being in the way.
I hope you enjoy your new endeavor as much as I have. One CAUTION though. It's addictive. You'll soon find your self spending hours visiting tire shops and salvage yards, in search of ore for your lead mine. Your lawn mower will gather dust. Your jeans will have silver sparkles, and your sleep will be filled with dreams, of stacks, of beautiful silver bars.

[oregonshooter]

mold,
thanks for the help, Paint stick is a great idea. I used veg oil cause it was the only thing I had at the time.

I found and old metal ladle with long handle at a flea market that seems to be working good.

I got a friend bringing me a bucket from the tire store every few weeks so I have no excuse anymore. :)

[oregonshooter]

Well, another 8 ingots done and a lesson learned.

My problem isn't as much about heat transfer as it is about a very high amount of non-lead WWs!!!

I went back to my notes (all from this board BTW) and found...

These photos are all zinc or steel wheelweights - all but three of these WWs are ferrous. Some of this has been reported before - my observations are:

1) Zinc or steel wheelweights are perceptibly lighter
2) When you scratch a steel WW, it only removes the paint. With a Zn WW, there is minimal penetration. With Pb alloy WWs, a screwdriver will penetrate deeper.
3) Zinc or steel WWs produce a higher pitched ring when dropped on concrete. Lead WW make more of a thud
4) A couple of them are marked with a Zn - some have a Fe (steel) with a number
5) Some of the Zn and steel WWs use a different method to attach weight metal to clip. I think due to zinc or steel's higher strength, they don't always bury the end of the clip into the WW metal. This is evident on the RH column of weights in the middle picture.
6) When you squeeze them with pliers, lead alloy WWs deform easily and Zn or steel WWs do not. refer to the RH photo

The ones not melting had FE 25 on them and and I'd say the lot of WWs is about 1/3 steel or alloy.

Will sort the rest out before trying again. The plier test works nicely BTW.

[Cherokee]

Oregonshooter - the shroud/heat shield is open at the bottom. Anything non-flamible that will keep the heat against the pot and not be blown away. A lid can be helpful. the 12" pipe sounds like a good idea. Its a learning experience and so much fun....

[oregonshooter]

Yeah, you learn a lot more "doing it" than planning it, even with the help of a great forum and people on it like this one.

[oregonshooter]

UREKA!!!! The key to melting lead is...... "melt lead not alloy!"

I tried my last batch by filling the pot and starting cold with SORTED lead only weights and it took 40 minutes to melt them all and I got another (16) ingots for a total of (35) ingots or 75lbs or (4565) 115gr 9mm boolits :)

http://oregonshooter.com/share/first_smelt_06.jpg
http://oregonshooter.com/share/first_smelt_07.jpg

There was 45lbs of alloy weight left over so the two buckets I got from the tire place had 40% NON-lead weights in it. WOW!

[Dale53]

oregon shooter;
Don't throw those "left overs" in the trash until you check with your local scrap dealer. Many times the clips and "whatever" has scrap value.

Dale53

[TDC]

oregon shooter;
Don't throw those "left overs" in the trash until you check with your local scrap dealer. Many times the clips and "whatever" has scrap value.

Dale53

Jim,

I'd suggest you be very careful not to mix the ingots that may have some zinc with the last group you're sure are good. If you use the contaminated zinc ones in a production pot they are almost sure to really mess up the equipment. Been there.... done that....

[oregonshooter]

I have a scrapper at work who can trade them in for me, I'll se what I get for them...

The previous batches never got hot enough to melt the zinc/alloy I skimmed them all out. I don't think this current setup can get hot enough to melt zinc/alloy which is a good thing.

[Sonoma2k2]

those clips from the wheel weights are actually worth something after being after all is said and done? where do you take them??

[Dale53]

Take them to the local scrap yard.

Dale53

[oregonshooter]

Local scrap yard would not pay anything for the scraps. :(