Gotta come up with a better plan.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I was planning on using Lee tumble lube molds in 9MM and .45ACP. Rich (rbstern) was kind enough to let me try out his TL356-124-TC mold yesterday and we loaded up 50 cartridges with Clays. The bullets fed and functioned well, but key holed all over the place, showing me I need to check bore diameter. I already know a .452 will SWC will shoot great in all my .45's, so the 9MM is the only problem.

I suspect when I check it, I'm going to find a bore closer to .358 and I'll need to use a .38 Special bullet. I see three potential molds on the Lee mold selection page, the 358-105-SWC, the TL358-158-SWC and the TL358-158-2R.

I've already been adviced the 358-105-SWC will give good accuracy (all I'm looking for) in a 9MM pistol, but I'm really wanting to use the Lee tumble lube method. I'm wondering if the 158 grainers I mentioned above are too large to use in a 9MM if I'm using Titegroup as a powder. (I have 8 pounds of it and it's going to be my 9MM and 45ACP powder until I run out.)

Can anyone advice me if either of the two tumble llube molds from Lee in the 158 grain would work for me in a 9MM using titegroup? And if so, which is likely to offer the better accuracy?

Thank you,

Dave

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Uh oh,

!8 views and no comments. Things aren't looking good.

Dave

[garandsrus]

Dave,

I tumble lube the 358-105-SWC for use in a .38 and it works fine. I also have a 358-158-SWC mold, but it's not a tumble lube. I haven't measured the 158 SWC but I think it may take up too much of the 9mm case, assuming you seat the bullet to the "normal" spot.

I tumble lube the bullets from both moulds. If you want some to try, send me a PM.

I have used 115 gr SWC (purchased before I started casting) in a 9mm and they fed without any problems.

I don't like the way the outside of the brass gets coated with lube from the other bullets when I used Alox. Several posts talked about putting mica on the bullets after lubing them and before loading them. I recently tried this and it woked great! I also tried wiping the cases and bullets with paint thinner (mineral spirits) and it also worked well. You will probably want to do one or the other of these to prevent the lube from gumming up the pistol.

John

[singleshotbuff]

Dave,

Not sure if this'll be of any help, but here goes.

First, any boolit can work with tumble lube, from what I've read and from a bit of personal experience, even the traditional type with lube grooves. It's just that the TL designs carry more lube. I haven't found that to be a problem with regular grooved boolits in limited experiments before I started using a lubri-sizer.

Second, I tried loading some 108gr boolits for my 9, and they shot good. BUT, I had feeding problems due to a short O.A.L. with the short boolit. You may get them to work, I just couldn't in my Springfield Armory XD.

Finally, I don't think you'll have much success with 158gr boolits. Just not enough case capacity in the 9mm. 147gr is about as heavy as is commonly used in the 9, probably for that reason. Maybe worth a try though.


Just my opinion.

SSB
SSB

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

John and SSB,

Thanks for the information. I mighta knowed the one I wanted to use wouldn't fit. I haven't shot much 9MM and so this was my first try at both reloading for it and boolit casting for it. Guess I'll have to figure a new plan. Dang, maybe I oughta sell it and get another 45ACP.

Dave

[BruceB]

Many years ago, when the saber-toothed cat still prowled the foot of the receding glacier, I tried the Lyman 358156 160-grain semi-wadcutter (!) in a 9mm Browning Hi-Power.

IT WORKED!

Not only did it work, but it functioned reliably for the full capacity of the 13-round magazine, top round to bottom round.

Not only did it work reliably, it also delivered a highly-useable measure of "OOMPH", because even in the long-gone dear-departed days of 1970, I had a CHRONOGRAPH. It told me that my 9mm 160SWCs had a muzzle velocity of just under 1000 fps, which, as I told my wife, made the Browning 9mm into virtually the full equivalent of carrying THREE very-hot-loaded .38 Chief's Specials (she had a Chief's at the time, and regarded it highly).

When using cast bullets, versus the latest expanding super-demolition hyper-everything jacketed bullet, I like to err to heavier bullets if some serious shooting may be called for...as distinguished from fun/plinking/amusement.

I'd certainly at least give the heavy boolits a cautious try. I SEEM to recall that I used Unique or Herco for the above loads, but I DEFINITELY remember that, after pulling one of the bullets for some reason, I had to DIG the powder out of the case with a pointed implement.

Even today, the current Lyman #47 Handbook has loads for a 147-grain bullet in the 9x19. Try reducing their starting loads a tad for your 158s, and you'll be on safe ground, I'd judge. Their loads also tread very close to 1000 fps, so I wasn't too far off the trail 36 years ago, I reckon.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Bruce,

Thanks for posting that. Would you go for the SWC or the round nose in the tumble lube I listed that lee has? I'm leaning towards the SWC, as I've always been able to tune my firearms (I'm a Armorer and my buddy is a gunsmith, we work on lots of pistols together.) to function with most anything, as long as it was a "safe" load.

BTW, I picked up a bunch of those 17 rounder's magazines for my High power clone from CDNN. They work great, have good springs and are highly reliable to shoot in my experience with them.

Regards,

Dave

[454PB]

I recently sent some boolits to singleshotbuff for experiments in his 9mm. One was the Lee 356-125-2R, and I miked them before boxing them up. They measured .360"-.361" cast from wheelweights and 25% linotype.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

45RPB,

That should put me right in the ballpark and was about the weight I was originally thinking. Have you ever tumble lubed that bullet profile and which size mold do you have?

Regards,

Dave

[singleshotbuff]

454PB,

I finally got to load and try those boolits, as well as the TC (Lyman) boolits. Both shot great when sized at .357" out of my SA XD. I ordered the Lee 356-125-2R mold and a Lee TC mold too. I should be making boolits with them this weekend. Thanks for your help!!

SSB

[Marc2]

Dave,

I had the tumble lube 124 .356 bullet. It was most definately a "tumble" lube bullet. It tumbled through the air and keyholed with every load I tried. Used Clays, Universal, Titegroup and N320. Eventually sent the mold back to Midway for a refund. I was shooting it through my custom 1911 with a fitted .355 barrel. I should have known better. In reading the customer reviews of the mold on Midways site, there were posts warning that the bullet keyholed, but I had to find out for myself. The 45 ACP tumble lube bullets are some of the most accurate I have. Dont know why the 9MM design would be any different.

Marc

[9.3X62AL]

Dave et al--

The 9mm groove diameters can run a little wide, in my experience. Add in the usual fast twists (1:10") the caliber uses, and things can get troublesome for cast boolit usage. Treat 9mm's (and 40's) like rifles--relatively hard alloys, size boolits to throat dimensions, relatively soft lubes, and focus on accuracy/reliability rather than velocity.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I finally got around to slugging the bore and seeing what my groove diameter was. Using the fishing (egg) sinker method, I measured .357.5 to .358.0 as the groove diameter.

The original round fired above was the TL356-124-TC. The bullets I still have I measured at .356 -.356.5. The load was 3.4 grains of Clays with a Remington small pistol primer.

I'm guessing either the bullet is too narrow for the groove diameter or I need to shoot a little bit hotter load. But I'd rather not guess. Can anyone suggest the best approach to improve accuracy on this pistol? I know it's the boolit load, not the gun, as the gun shoots extremely well with "whitebox" FMJ rounds.

Thanks again,

Dave

[454PB]

45RPB,

That should put me right in the ballpark and was about the weight I was originally thinking. Have you ever tumble lubed that bullet profile and which size mold do you have?

Regards,

Dave

Dave, the boolits I sent to singleshotbuff were the Lee 125 gr. 2R, which is sold as .356., and a Lyman 125 gr. 356402. Both of these are two cavity conventional lube groove boolits. I cast them from 75% WW and 25% linotype to boost the diameter. The Lee ended up .360 and the Lyman a touch smaller (I think they were .358"-.359") Either of those could be tumble lubed, I sent them as cast so singleshotbuff could do his own experimenting.

If you want your boolits a larger diameter, try using a linotype rich alloy. Since the factory loads are performing well, it appears it's not the gun. An alloy with more antimony is the quickest and cheapest way to find out if boolit diameter is the problem.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

454PB,

That sounds like a very good idea, but linotype is in kinda short supply around here, as in nonexistent. Is there an alternative source for antimony?

Thanks,

Dave

[onceabull]

Dave :try a double handful of magnum 7.5 shot added to your potful of alloy,,if no linotype available and you don't choose to go the The Antimony Man for product... Onceabull

[wills]

454PB,

That sounds like a very good idea, but linotype is in kinda short supply around here, as in nonexistent. Is there an alternative source for antimony?

Thanks,

Dave

The Antimony Man

http://www.theantimonyman.com/

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I think I should perhaps mention I haven't bought a mold yet. The mold I was using was rbstern's. So I'm not committed to the tumble lube truncated cone yet. I would like to buy a Lee six ganger and would like a tumble lube, but it isn't a requirement. If I knew I could buy one and get one at the maximum spec. (+.03, isn't it?) that would be great, but I'd rather just order something in a six ganger more likely to function well with my bore diameter. I can learn to do the tumble lube thing and I have the materials to do so on hand, except for perhaps a Lee sizer and I can buy that when I order another powder measure here soon.

Thanks for the sources for antimony. I should have thought of the "antimoney man" being as I bought my ladle from him. Btw, he offers antimoney in what appears to be ingots and what he lists as "fines and dust." Which would be better for my application and in what quantity? I do have plenty of wheel weight ingot, freshly made into ingots.

Dave

[D.Mack]

Dave, Just a couple of thoughts. Dont order just antimony, in any form. Antimony must reach about 1000 degrees to alloy with lead and tin, so if you must order it , get it already alloyed. It can be done, but its a lot of work , and most pots wont get hot enough to do it right.
second, most keyholing in pistols is caused because the bullet is not biting the rifling. Changing the load, or lube usually wont change the problem. The bullet must be big enough to fill the groves, and strong enough to hold on to them. The easiest way to figure it out is to recover a fired bullet, intact . Then check for blow-by (gas cutting) Bullet too small, and stripping, where the bullet is jumping over the lands, probably too soft. Also look in the barrell is there any lead, if so it can also tell you the problem. Lead at or near the chamber means gas cutting, and in the corners, of the grooves, usually means stripping.
In my 9's Ihave shot from 88 gr. to 150 and settled on the 125 rn., but thats just me. I couldn't get the light bullets to shoot high enough to be sight adjustable, and the heavier ones filled the case to the point I was worried about pressure. DM

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

D. Mack,

Thanks for that information. I was originally wanting to use the Lee TL 356-124TC. I felt the tumble lube bullet was a good beginning for a newbie caster and the bullet looked like a good design. I also wanted to use a bullet that was around 125 grains, feeling that was a "good weight" for a fairly accurate plinker bullet in the 9MM caliber.

Based on what you're saying, I need a TL 358-124 TC. Which Lee doesn't make. I suppose the only options I have is to select another brand or contact Lee and see what it would take to get them to make a slightly larger version of their TL356-124TC.

Which brings another thought. How many folks out there might be interested in getting a group buy on such a mold in six cavity?

Regards,

Dave

[454PB]

As I said above, Dave, the Lee 9mm mould I have casts big......,360". Granted, not all their moulds are identical, but if you get one like mine it'll cast what you want. A double cavity is less than $20, not a big cost if it doesn't cast big enough.

You can use the standard lube groove boolits with Lee liquid alox, works fine for me.

[dragonrider]

I have the Lee 356-1242R tumble lube 6 cavity, and lately I have been sizing and lubing them in my Lyman 450. It's and experiment to see how little lube I can get by with, and there ain't much in them tiny grooves. After 100 plus rounds the results have been good, accuracy is more than acceptable, and leading is about non-existant. I am useing a P-85 and a Browning High Power. Admittedly lubing this way is slow, but I am not a fan of Lee snot. Too messy. I may use it again to see if it is any better but not with enthusiasm.

[Lloyd Smale]

im a big fan of the 105 lee its the most accurate bullet in my two smith 15s and is the most accurate bullet sized to .357 in my para p-18 It feeds great in it too. My colt 9mm will feed it too but likes heavier bullets. I size them to .357 in the 9mms and for the most part tumble lube it as cast in the .38s as it shoots as well like that as it does sized and its alot less work. It will tumble lube just fine as a matter of fact its about the only bullet i do tumble lube. If your having feeding problems with it in a 1911 id say you are more then likely running to stiff of a spring. Try about a 10lb spring to start with. I run an 8 in my para but im using a pretty light load.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

454PB,

I appreciate what you're saying, but after restoring 30 or so worn out milsurps, replacing missing parts, cleaning up damaged stocks, reblueing rusty barreled actions, etc, I'm just at a point where I'd rather pay to get just exactly what I want than to fiddle around with something that "might" do the job. But you did get me to thinking I might be able to get Lee to "cherry pick" me a mold out out of their production that does measure out at .359 or .360. Logically, the largest molds will be turned out at the beginning of the production, when the tooling hasn't worn down. So that's a possiblity. Never hurts to ask.

Lloyd,

Where did you get the idea I'm shooting a 1911 and having feeding problems from my post? I'm not trying to be contrary here (Though admittedly I'm getting to be a crochety old fart.), but I never mentioned a problem with a 1911 I don't think. While I have a 1911, I'm working on coming up with a mold that'll cast bullets that work well a Bulgarian (Arcus 94) made Browning clone with a .358 groove diameter. I'm a gunsmith so I know a little about recoil springs and tuning a gun to handle a particular load. I'm also not having any feeding problems. All my guns are tuned to feed and eject a resized empty brass. My apologies if I sound grouched out or contrary. I'm actually in a quite good mood. I'm guessing you probably skim read.

Regards,

Dave