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View Full Version : Figurin out some thangs, need a little hep



DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-12-2006, 01:35 PM
Ok, after spending some time with Rich and his set up, I've got back home and pulled out some of my stuff. I can see I originally planned to set up for production ingot making and bullet casting, based on the items I have.

My turkey cooker has a 7 quart cast iron Dutch oven with a handle built in and a lid, which I'm thinking is a good thing to help hold in heat. The base is welded half inch rod and seems pretty sturdy, I can remove the burner from the setup, but there's no convenient way to keep the shield and "pot rest" without cutting the steel rod base out. I'm thinking I'd probably be better off to set it up on a couple 8" hollow concrete blocks (I can get these or pavers for free.) rather than try to put it on a table.

So the bottom line is I'm going to have two setups. One for medium volume smelting operations and another (Based on a 4-20 Lee bottom pour and copying Rich's set up.) for casting bullets.

My questions are on the smelting operation:

I already have enough 1.5" angle iron (on hand and paid for) to make three 11.5" long, four gang ingot molds with handles based on BruceB's model. This will allow me to produce 4 molds of three pounds each = 12 pounds of lead per mold times three molds - 36 pounds each time all three are filled. Fill them three times and you have 108 pounds, likely about what will fill up a 50 caliber ammo can.(100 pounds, I"ve read.) So I'll need on the third run to not fill three gangs of the the last mold to get right at 100 pounds.

My concern is not overloading my turkey cooker. I can calculate how much weight it is designed for based on the fill volume of the 7 quart dutch oven with cooking oil. I figure I'd be best off to melt down only that much lead.

Does anyone know how much weight lead creates in a quart volume? Having this value, I can easily calculate how much lead to put in my turkey cooker to not over weight it.

Also, does the type of mold described above need some mold release sprayed into it? I know about the Frankford Arsenal mold release. Is there something locally available I might can substitue with good effect?

Thank you for your assistance,

Dave

wills
04-12-2006, 01:58 PM
Weight of lead
http://www.tesarta.com/www/resources/library/weights.html#Metals


Online conversions
http://www.onlineconversion.com

Bman
04-12-2006, 02:19 PM
Dave, you might not want to worry about over smelting. I find it's best to leave some lead in the pot when smelting WW. It melts quicker and helps the rest get going. Also for me it is not real easy to guesstimate how much lead I will end up with from a pot full of scrap. My cast iron smelting pot when piled as full as I can get it with WW ends up less than 2/3 full when they all melt down. Easiest thing might be to start smelting and quit when you have enough ingots made up. Leave what you don't need right then in the smelitng pot and get to casting!

Underclocked
04-12-2006, 02:21 PM
23.7.... figure 24 pounds per quart.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-12-2006, 02:33 PM
Will,

Thanks for the links.


Based on the information derived from the two websites, a quart of motor oil weighs about 1.848 pounds. I'm guessing a quart of cooking oil will weigh close to that. Assuming a 20% fudge factor by the designer of the cooker, it should be able to hold easily 16 pounds and possibly as much as 24 pounds if he used a 30% fudge factor.

If I did my math right, a quart of lead weighs just a bit below 23 pounds of lead. So I'm guessing I should be able to get away with loading my 7 quart pot with 24 pounds of molten lead without reinforcing it at all. What I'm not sure of is how much of the pan that would fill before removing clips and fluxing. Can someone advise?

Am I being too conservative in my estimates?

Dave

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-12-2006, 02:46 PM
I forgot to mention I also have a thermometer. What's a good temperature to set for initially with a turkey cooker and what's a good temperature once the initial wheel weights have become molten?

Thanks again,

Dave

fourarmed
04-12-2006, 03:26 PM
If your turkey burner is anything like the two I own, it will hold up all the lead you can get in that dutch oven.

wills
04-12-2006, 03:31 PM
Might just stand on that turkey cooker. See if it holds you. Fill that Dutch oven about 2/3 full of WW, pick it up, if it weighs less than you, you’re probably all right.

Maven
04-12-2006, 04:43 PM
Dave in FB, GA: If you want a good, readily available and reasonably priced mold-releasing agent, go to a NAPA automotive parts store and ask for "dgf 123" (dry graphite film in an alcohol base; aerosol can). You can use it on bullet molds too, but too much will decrease the diameter of CB's by at least .001".

libbyman
04-12-2006, 06:21 PM
DONT fill a 50 cal. ammo can with your ingots!!!!!!!!!!
Unless you are the strong man from the circus.
A 30 cal ammo can with WW will weigh 50 lbs + or - a few lbs.
Libbyman

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-12-2006, 06:50 PM
Might just stand on that turkey cooker. See if it holds you. Fill that Dutch oven about 2/3 full of WW, pick it up, if it weighs less than you, you’re probably all right.

LOL, wills, I weight about 250. I'm pretty sure if I stand on it, I won't have to worry about it holding wheel weights, cause I'll crush it. (grin) Based on what you and forearmed said, I think I'll try 2/3'rds full of unsmelted WW and see if'n it kin handle it. If'n it kin without strain, I'll up it to full of unsmelted WW's and process from there.

Maven,

Thanks for the tip on the dgf 123. Lot quicker to hit the NAPA than to wait on Midway to ship.

I appreciate it gentlemen. Now I just gotta get those three molds built.

Regards,

Dave

Dale53
04-12-2006, 07:04 PM
Dave;
I have a pretty sturdy turkey cooker. My regular smelting pot will hold about 80 lbs brim full and my working level is about 60 lbs. My cooker would handle at least double that with no problem. I just do 60 lb batches and that is enough for me to handle. Typically, I'll do two or three batches at a time. I HAVE done as much as 500 lbs at a time but that is pretty much an "all day affair".

However, better safe than sorry. I can just about imagine the damage 60-100 lbs of molten lead would do to the surrounding environment plus your toes, etc. if your cooker collapsed.:(

Dale53

MGySgt
04-12-2006, 07:11 PM
Dave - You planning on picking up that Dutch Oven with molten lead in it????

No - No - Go to the Dollar Store and get yourself a BIG soup ladel (SS ones are in expensive) and scoop out the molten lead with the ladel. You can always wrp the handle of the soup ladel with leather or cloth if your gloves are not thick enough.

Too easy for that pot to be just a tad warmer then you thunk and spill it all over - That my dear friend is WW abuse - you just spilled your cleaned WW in the dirt!

Drew

BruceB
04-12-2006, 07:35 PM
DONT fill a 50 cal. ammo can with your ingots!!!!!!!!!!
Unless you are the strong man from the circus.
A 30 cal ammo can with WW will weigh 50 lbs + or - a few lbs.
Libbyman


Dang...I've been stashing my WW ingots in .50-caliber cans since about forever! They're heavy, alright...I seem to recall weighing one on a bathroom scale and coming up with 120 pounds or thereabouts.

Come to think of it, the way I work now, I NEVER have to move the cans when full. I take the ingots from the smelting table to the stack of .50 cans, and gradually fill each can in turn, right there where the cans live. They stay out in the weather without any problems. When casting boolits, I step about ten feet from the casting pot to the stack of ammo cans outside the shed, and grab as many ingots as I need. Works for me!

Yeah...I'd hate to have to tote a .50 can full of ingots up or down a set of basement stairs! I had a job in the mill at a copper mine long ago, and one of the chores was replenishing the big cascade mill with 6"-diameter grinding balls which weighed 32 pounds each. There were 19 steps from the floor to the place where the balls were dropped into the mill, and I had a method whereby I could carry four of them at once. Maybe that's why I still remember the number of steps, 45 years later!!!! Ah, to be young....immortal, immune and impregnable!

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-12-2006, 07:41 PM
Dave - You planning on picking up that Dutch Oven with molten lead in it????

No - No - Go to the Dollar Store and get yourself a BIG soup ladel (SS ones are in expensive) and scoop out the molten lead with the ladel. You can always wrp the handle of the soup ladel with leather or cloth if your gloves are not thick enough.

Too easy for that pot to be just a tad warmer then you thunk and spill it all over - That my dear friend is WW abuse - you just spilled your cleaned WW in the dirt!

Drew

MGySgt,

I definately do not plan on picking it up, though I'm strong enough to. I have a stainess steel soup ladle and a rowell ladel I plan on using. I figure with both of them, I oughta be able to fill out those 3 lb. ingot molds at one go.

libbyman,

I don't plan on carrying the 50 cal ammo can either. I plan on having two or three of them on the bottom shelf of my heavy duty steel wheeled cart I'm going to roll outside to cast bullets with. I'll smelt until I fill them up, then stop. When I'm ready to cast bullets, they'll be right there ready to go on the bottom of the cart. just open them up and go to work.

Regards,

Dave

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-12-2006, 07:48 PM
BruceB,

I'm figuring on duplicating your mold design in a four gang mold VVVV capped with flat steel on each end. I'm putting handles on each end using the same flat steel. Do the handles need to be very long (from the end) or will the width of the flat steel be long enough to get leverage? Will the molds be hot enough I might want to make them long to avoid the heat?

My plan is to fill them on a sturdy table build with steel legs and cheap (shipping crate) plywood. Then simply flip them over onto the table when they've set up.

Would you be kind enough to constructively criticse my plan and offer the voice of experience working with such a mold? I have bad knees, so would prefer to stand straight up if I can, but I can kneel down and work on the ground if I have to. My gut feel says to stand up where I can back the heck outta the way if something goes wrong and molten lead spills.

Thank you,

Dave

Dale53
04-12-2006, 08:14 PM
I have an angle iron ingot mould. It does five lb weights. I also have several of the "regular" 1 lb ingots. I just do some of them in the large ingots and most of them in the 1 lb ingots. Then I have a choice when I alloy metal. In fact, I will soon add a Lee ingot mould that has a couple of 1/2 lb ingots amongst the 1 pounders. They are quite ueseful when alloying.

The only handles I have on the large mould is the angle iron closing the ends off. That is all that is necessary. I use a pair of "fireplace" or "welders" gloves. Works a treat, as the British say.

Dale53

BD
04-12-2006, 08:53 PM
Dave , you might want to consider the weight and shape of the ingots you're planning to make if you're thinking of using them in a smallish bottom pour pot. A long skinny 5 pound ingot is going to have to go in on end and will cool the pot all the way down to the spout, (you're adding about 30% "cold" alloy to the mix). I use steel "large muffin" pans which make about a 2 lb ingot which is shaped just right to set in the pot on top. I keep two of the on the rim of my lyman bottom pour and add them one at a time, more or less continuously when I've got the rhythm going. I set them into the top of the pot and let them float down through the kitty litter before I stir them in. I stack four of them on the lip of the Master Caster and add them two at a time, (it's a 40 lb pot).
If you add too much alloy all at once you'll have to wait for the mix to come back up to temp before you can keep going. If you use smaller ingots you just tip them in as part of the routine without breaking stride.

As far as the temp for smelting WWs, I just melt them as low as possible so I can skim off anything that's not melting along with the crowd, and then when the pot is full, I hold them at 600 or so for about 20 minutes while stirring and fluxing. It takes some time for the crud to float up out of the alloy in a big pot. This way my alloy is good and clean and I need very little , if any, fluxing in the pot I'm pouring from. BD

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-12-2006, 09:45 PM
BD,

"you might want to consider the weight and shape of the ingots you're planning to make if you're thinking of using them in a smallish bottom pour pot. A long skinny 5 pound ingot is going to have to go in on end and will cool the pot all the way down to the spout"

I did consider the weight and shape. Unless BruceB is telling a fib, the molds I'm making will produce 3 pound, not five pound ingots. I will be inserting these into a Lee 4-20 bottom pour when I go to cast. If I didn't misread Bruce's article on this website, these ingots should store nicely and be a nice shape to start up the pot with.

"(you're adding about 30% "cold" alloy to the mix)."

I plan on using a method very similar to BruceB and Goatlips use from their articles and websites for casting purposes, so I'll be using my Lee to pour and I'll use a second Dutch Oven I have on my turkey cooker to premelt my ingots and just pour from the one pot to the other to top off the casting pot.

"I use steel "large muffin" pans which make about a 2 lb ingot which is shaped just right to set in the pot on top."

Now I've seen three sizes of muffin pans. Some are tiny, like Rich has, some are about the medium size Mom made cornbread in and some are the large size the wife makes them banana nut muffins in. Are you talking about cornbread or banana nut muffins here? I'm interested because I also have about 300-400 pounds or better of pure lead I'm going to need a different shape mold for, so it'll be easy to differentiate what's what.


"If you add too much alloy all at once you'll have to wait for the mix to come back up to temp before you can keep going. If you use smaller ingots you just tip them in as part of the routine without breaking stride."

Even though I'll likely do the double boiler, I appreciate this information and will very likely use it as well along with some of those type ingots you mention.

"As far as the temp for smelting WWs, I just melt them as low as possible so I can skim off anything that's not melting along with the crowd, and then when the pot is full, I hold them at 600 or so for about 20 minutes while stirring and fluxing."

What I'm mostly concerned about is when I'm initially melting the wheelweights down, that I don't manage to get "too hot" and melt the non lead wheel weights.

"It takes some time for the crud to float up out of the alloy in a big pot. This way my alloy is good and clean and I need very little , if any, fluxing in the pot I'm pouring from."

Would everyone be kind enough to talk more on good fluxing technique? I have a small ton of candle wax from the wife I plan on using up as flux and I'd like to get the wheelweight ingots as clean as possible, since for the two calibers I'm using, I don't plan on alloying them with anything else.

Thank you fellas for your help in this.

Dave

carpetman
04-12-2006, 10:33 PM
BruceB---Was your method of carrying 4---32 pounders at once juggling them? If so thats cheating you were really only carrying one at a time.

wills
04-12-2006, 10:56 PM
Banana nut are probably bread pans, also known as loaf pans. Mom’s pans will probably make about a three pound alloy muffin. Wal*mart has some "Mini Loaf Pans" that might make good Ingot molds. I have not tried them as they have the same non stick surface, that was on a muffin pan I bought and I could not get the alloy out of that one. Others, however have reported success. It has also been suggested that rust is the secret to the ingots releasing. Try garage sale muffin pans. Also if you are really serious about your ingot molds: http://www.mifco.com/ingot.htm

BruceB
04-13-2006, 12:04 AM
BruceB---Was your method of carrying 4---32 pounders at once juggling them? If so thats cheating you were really only carrying one at a time.

Heh...modesty forbids me from agreeing with the concept...

Actually, we had a 300-square-foot area of the mill floor surrounded by a low timber wall. Every few weeks, a BIG truck would arrive, back up to our "corral", and dump in a few thousand 6" balls. Us millmen installed a bit of a "shot rack" along the top of the low timber barricade, and on this we could place the balls to be carried up the steps. I'd take one in each hand and then somehow maneuver another one onto each wrist. Cradling them against the ol' bod, I'd then do the Zombie shuffle to the foot of the stairs and then walk up to the shot chute.

That cascade mill was 32 feet in diameter, wheel-shaped, and both the grinding balls and the ore were introduced through the center bearing area. The mill turned just fast enough that the centrifugal force carried everything in it up to a point well above the centerline, where gravity took over and the whole mess of rock and grinding balls would "cascade" down onto the lower part of the wheel structure. This continuous impacting process ground the ore to a floury dust which was sucked out the "other" side by monster fans into a duct system for further processing. Yep, it was LOUD!

454PB
04-13-2006, 12:45 AM
I don't use a turkey fryer for smelting, but I crunched some numbers assuming that the pot is 10" in diameter and I come up with 32.17 pounds of pure lead per inch of depth. So if anyone was able (or foolish enough) to fill one 10 " deep, it would weigh 322 pounds.

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-13-2006, 09:19 AM
454PB,

And in that statement, you encapsulated exactly why I wanted to be darn cautious with how I approach this. I think I have found a totally safe solution though. My buddy has a set of olympic 45 pound weights. I'll borrow a couple hundred pounds of those and stack them on and get a reasonable idea about how much the turkey cooker can hold safely with no fire and no molten lead involved.

Thank you all,

Dave

MGySgt
04-13-2006, 01:36 PM
Wal*mart has some "Mini Loaf Pans" that might make good Ingot molds.

I bought some of Wally World Mini Loaf pans. They create 8 ignots at 3 lbs each. They stack great and they are easy to handle.

I use 2 of them at a time. Fill one and let it cool while I am refilling the pot and dumping the other one. Then I slide it over and put the second one in place. Just keep going.

Yes they do (or did) have some type of non stck on them, but it has not caused any problems with them coming out after they harden.

Drew

wills
04-13-2006, 11:55 PM
http://shopping.msn.com/specs/shp/?itemId=28937028

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-14-2006, 04:46 PM
MGySgt and Wills,

Thank you for the information. I'll be going to Wally world tonight with the intention of buying two muffin pans and I'll check them out.

Regards,

Dave

MGySgt
04-14-2006, 09:36 PM
The mini muffen tin I have are 2 rows of 4 for 8 ingots for about 24 lbs per pan. Mine work real good as long as you don't pick them up by one end with a pair of channel locks and move then 10 feet that way.

Just dump them on the same table and they stay straight!

Drew

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-15-2006, 07:03 AM
Well, I did my first smelt with the new equipment last night. The old lady came home late from her job and was worn slap out, so no trip to wally mart. I did learn enough that I know I want to change my smelting pot to a taller, skinnier version if'n I wanna use a soup ladle.

For you guys that use the turkey cooker burners as heart sources: Where do you set your hear initially and where do you turn it back to once the lead melts while you're cleaning out the steel clips, fluxing, then dipping and pouring into the molds?

I need a "maintain temperature" to cut back to in order to preserve propane gas while filling my molds. Hopefully one that'll keep it warm enough and minimize the lead "filming" on top.

Thanks again,

Dave

Dale53
04-15-2006, 11:22 AM
Dave;
I think a really good dial type thermometer is a good idea. I have been using one for years. All dial thermometers are NOT created equal. Bill Ferguson has a dandy and the price is good for the quality:
http://www.theantimonyman.com/thermometry.htm

Bill is a "sure-nuff" metallurgist and I listen when he's "talkin' ". If you order somethng, have him send you any information that he has on casting, alloying, etc. Good man.

Dale53

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-15-2006, 11:47 AM
I thought so too Dale. I bought one from Bill a year and a half ago when I first started out trying to set up for casting. I am just getting back to it because we moved, then I decided to work for myself rather than for someone else and haven't had much time.

It's reassuring to know other folks think it is a good one. What's a good "maintain temperature" for my smelting once I've got the WW's cleaned of clips and fluxed so I can keep it in good shape while pouring into the molds?


Dave

Dale53
04-15-2006, 06:18 PM
Dave;
The current thinking is to hold the melt to 650 degrees. That is below the melting level of zinc. I haven't yet had a zinc problem and, God willin', won't have in the future. Some of the guys on here have reported zinc wheelweights showing up with increasing frequency. I think it is just a thoughtful thing to do to protect yourself. In the meantime, you will save on the ever increasing price of Propane. At 650 degrees, anything floating can be assumed to be "junk" and can be skimmed off without danger of contaminating your main supply.

Dale53

DaveInFloweryBranchGA
04-15-2006, 08:23 PM
Dale,

Thanks for the response. I followed your advice and guess what turned up in my final pot of the evening? If you guessed a zinc weight, you got it. I definately missed it, but it definately looked "different" than all the other weights. Keeping the melt at 650 saved my pot. Otherwise, I'd be tossing the last pot.

Thank you for the advice everyone. I just finished smelting two 5 gallon buckets of wheel weights. Got a nice stack of triangular WW ingots ready to make into bullets now. After trying out the "dip" method with the smelting, I've decided I am definately getting a Lee 4-20 and some borax to cast with.

Regards,

Dave