question to the group

[brian]

i recall C.E. Harris' writings about PP bullets when he was doing articles for the NRA. seems lyman cut some special 30 cal. pp moulds. the point i remember was that the mould cast out about 0.008 - 0.01 under groove diameter and two wraps of the cotton rag paper that was being used took the CB up to groove diameter or so.
My interest for this post is for the 358 Win and/or the 35 Whelen. obviously Lyman never cut a PP mould for this caliber, but..... i was thinking (i know, i know) that if someone had a 348 Win mould, that might be a perfect size to pp up to 35 caliber....
has anyone done this before? if so, details please. I'm curious how it turned out.

of course comments on the feasibility of this experiment even by folks who've never done it is welcome too
thanks,
Brian

[Lead pot]

Brian.

Patching a bullet to groove diameter is not very practical for a bolt action rifle.
This is why I say this. A.358 has a very short neck so when you patch a bullet to groove diameter you will have to seat the bullet way below the case neck and when the charge goes off you will destroy the patch there for accuracy is gone.
Also when loading the rounds in the magazine and running it through the cycle loading chances are you will destroy the front of the patch causing the bullet not to chamber properly and the accuracy will suffer.
For a bottle neck case In a bolt gun shoot a good cast GG bullet with a reduced load. You will like the results better.

LP

[303Guy]

I don't know so much Lead pot. I thought the same but I was wrong. Take a look at this.

These are TREERAT's paper patched 358 loads. (Do I have this right?):roll:
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/HPIM0280.jpg

These are 35Rem.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/35Rem2.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/35Rem.jpg

I'll have to check that I got it right![smilie=1:

[Lead pot]

I'm glad it's working for you.

[Lead pot]

I might ask--what type of action is on your rifles? Remington, Mauser, Ruger or Winchester???

[303Guy]

These are not mine. The 358 Winchester is TREERAT'S and is a Ruger Frontier Scout carbine, 16 1/2 inch barrel, 1 in 12 twist. I seem to think the 35 Remington has to be used single feed. It was a while back and I will have to look through the threads to find them (and the right information - I don't remember right off who's it is).

There was something about the 358. It has a long necked chamber and short throat and to take advantage of that, TREERAT makes cases from 30-06 brass. Lead pot, you said something which would be true of plain cast boolits - that a boolit seated below the neck will destroy accuracy. I have not tried this but I have been told that a paper patched boolit may be seated deeper than the neck. I have no choice with my 303 Brit but to seat the boolit way out with the patch exposed. It's OK for my rifle - it will magazine feed without damaging the patch. Other rifles ... well ... I can see there could be problems if too much patch is exposed!

One can try tracing paper if patch damage is an issue. Tracing paper is tough stuff. Some folks use it with success.

I would say it is much easier to go GG with reduced loads. I have only recently gotten to the point where I think my boolits and patches are ready for range testing, let alone load developing!:mrgreen:

[pdawg_shooter]

Brian.

Patching a bullet to groove diameter is not very practical for a bolt action rifle.
This is why I say this. A.358 has a very short neck so when you patch a bullet to groove diameter you will have to seat the bullet way below the case neck and when the charge goes off you will destroy the patch there for accuracy is gone.
Also when loading the rounds in the magazine and running it through the cycle loading chances are you will destroy the front of the patch causing the bullet not to chamber properly and the accuracy will suffer.
For a bottle neck case In a bolt gun shoot a good cast GG bullet with a reduced load. You will like the results better.

LP
I patch for 5 different bolt actions. 25.06 in a Mauser with a Douglass barrel, 30.06 in a Mk10 Mauser, 300RUM in a Savage, 45-70 in a Mauser and a Marlin lever, and a 458 WinMag in a P14 with a Douglass barrel. Only the 458 has been long throated. Woops I forgot my 303 in a #4 mk2. Guess thats 6. Most my loads are heavy for caliber, so most protrude below the neck. No problem. My most accurate 30 caliber is in the 300RUM with the Lyman 311284 and it sticks way below the neck. This load is MOA at a little over 3000fps. I have to conclude it is very easy to shoot paper patched in a bolt action.

[Nobade]

I've been looking for one of those moulds to try exactly what you describe - but I haven't found one at a reasonable price yet. Seems whenever they come up on Ebay or other auction sites they go for stupid amounts of money. I guess I'll have to make one. I have a 35X30-30 rolling block rifle I want to shoot paper patch bullets in.

[Lead pot]

The old win mod 70 's and rugers have the claw type bolts that control the feeding of a round into the chamber, the round is picked by the bolt and it enters the chamber straight therefore you have a better chance that the patch will be undamaged.
A Rem type received the round rolls around while the bolt pushes it into the chamber and the patch has a greater chance to be damaged and cause a problem closing the bolt.
Tight head space can be a problem shooting a tight bullet with smokeless powder in a bolt rifle, yes even a patched lead bullet will raise a pressure spike enough to stress the chamber.
Using a copper jacketed bullet and then wrapping a paper jacket over it is just asking for a problem.

Lp

[pdawg_shooter]

The old win mod 70 's and rugers have the claw type bolts that control the feeding of a round into the chamber, the round is picked by the bolt and it enters the chamber straight therefore you have a better chance that the patch will be undamaged.
A Rem type received the round rolls around while the bolt pushes it into the chamber and the patch has a greater chance to be damaged and cause a problem closing the bolt.
Tight head space can be a problem shooting a tight bullet with smokeless powder in a bolt rifle, yes even a patched lead bullet will raise a pressure spike enough to stress the chamber.
Using a copper jacketed bullet and then wrapping a paper jacket over it is just asking for a problem.

Lp

My very first paper patch experience was back in the 60s. A friend had a pre-war Mauser in 8mm with a .318 bore. I patched and loaded many .308s up for this rifle. Even now I patch .308s up for use in my .303 SMLE. I have never had a problem and I use full power loads.

[Lead pot]

:bigsmyl2:I been loading black powder cartridges since 1954 and never had a problem till 1998 when I rung a chamber in my Sharps using a full load of black powder either:bigsmyl2:

Good luck.

LP

[bcp477]

Brian.

Patching a bullet to groove diameter is not very practical for a bolt action rifle.
This is why I say this. A.358 has a very short neck so when you patch a bullet to groove diameter you will have to seat the bullet way below the case neck and when the charge goes off you will destroy the patch there for accuracy is gone.
Also when loading the rounds in the magazine and running it through the cycle loading chances are you will destroy the front of the patch causing the bullet not to chamber properly and the accuracy will suffer.
For a bottle neck case In a bolt gun shoot a good cast GG bullet with a reduced load. You will like the results better.

LP

What ???????????? Have YOU ever patched for smokeless, bolt action rifles ???? It doesn't sound much like you have.

[bcp477]

The old win mod 70 's and rugers have the claw type bolts that control the feeding of a round into the chamber, the round is picked by the bolt and it enters the chamber straight therefore you have a better chance that the patch will be undamaged.
A Rem type received the round rolls around while the bolt pushes it into the chamber and the patch has a greater chance to be damaged and cause a problem closing the bolt.
Tight head space can be a problem shooting a tight bullet with smokeless powder in a bolt rifle, yes even a patched lead bullet will raise a pressure spike enough to stress the chamber.
Using a copper jacketed bullet and then wrapping a paper jacket over it is just asking for a problem.

Lp

Again,....... what ???????? The "Remington type" push feed actions are, in my experience, MUCH easier on unjacketed and paper-patched bullets......as the round has pretty much a "straight shot" into the chamber.....and doesn't have to feed from the magazine. Chambering PP rounds with these is even easier and more positive if one pushes the round somewhat forward, after dropping it into place, thus starting the bullet into the chamber - before closing the bolt. The "rolling around" you describe I think would only be an issue if you are trying to chamber a round while moving the rifle about. Mauser-type actions, with controlled round feed, very often give chambering problems with other than spitzer bullets, because the nose of the bullet tends to strike the edge of the chamber, as the cartridge is picked up from the magazine - BEFORE the base of the cartridge fully seats against the bolt face - and the cartridge "straightens out" to enter the chamber. I have fixed/ modified eight different Mauser-actioned rifles to date, by working over the feed ramp and magazine lips, to eliminate this problem.

So, I can't fathom the basis of your comments, at all. Sorry, but it sounds to me as if you are simply talking out of your hat, so to speak.


"Tight head space can be a problem shooting a tight bullet with smokeless powder in a bolt rifle, yes even a patched lead bullet will raise a pressure spike enough to stress the chamber."

What the heck is this supposed to mean ? If you are referring to using an OVER-sized bullet, whether patched, plain cast or jacketed....then, of course more "stress" (chamber pressure) is created, in comparison with a bullet of the CORRECT size. Obviously. But, headspace has little to do with it.

A copper jacketed bullet, wrapped with a paper patch is both unnecesary and foolish. Why would anyone do this ? However, if the patched bullet diameter is correct for the barrel, i.e., about groove diameter, then it will create no more pressure than the copper jacketed bullet, at groove diameter, would by itself. In fact, there is some good evidence that paper-patched bullets, patched to groove diameter, create LESS chamber pressure than groove diameter jacketed bullets.

Again....... I don't understand the basis for your comments at all.

[bcp477]

:bigsmyl2:I been loading black powder cartridges since 1954 and never had a problem till 1998 when I rung a chamber in my Sharps using a full load of black powder either:bigsmyl2:

Good luck.

LP



Ah, now I see. You are a BP shooter......and likely have never PP for smokeless, let alone a bolt-action rifle (it CERTAINLY would seem that way, from your comments). All I can add is that BP/ PP shooting is apples and oranges......compared to PP/ SP shooting. With BP, you patch to BORE diameter.....with SP, you patch to GROOVE diameter. Bore diameter patching usually won't work with SP. In summary - they AREN'T the same thing.

So, you damaged your Sharps chamber in 1998, obviously by doing something you shouldn't have....... and this makes you an expert about SP/ PP shooting ???

[bcp477]

To address the ORIGINAL question of this thread.......

Brian,

What you are looking for with SMOKELESS powder and paper-patching is a final patched bullet diameter of approximately GROOVE diameter. This can vary a bit, some rifles will accept a bit less than groove diameter.....some like a little more than groove diameter. For example, my 8 x 57 does just fine with a final patched dia. of about 0.3235"......vs. groove diameter of 0.323" (actually, on my rifle, about 0.0001" less than that.....0.3229"). How you get there is variable. But, generally, it is best to do TWO wraps of whatever paper you are using. Thus, your starting bullet size needs to be less than groove dia. by 4 X the thickness of the paper you will patch with. There needs to be some experimentation done, in all cases, as the paper used will often stretch and shrink, while wet and dry respectively....thus giving a final dry, patched diameter of a bit less than expected.

For example, I start off with bullets of 0.314" diameter. I then patch with TWO wraps
of paper, aopplied wet, that has a dry diameter of 0.0025". Two wraps (a total of FOUR thicknesses), would seem to give a final dry diameter of : 0.314" + (4 x 0.0025") = 0.324". However, since the paper stretches and shrinks while drying.......the final dia. comes out at 0.3235".

The point is, how you get there is variable.....and there is room for different approaches (fatter bullet + thinner paper or thinner bullet + thicker paper).

Sorry, I can't help you specifically about the .348 mould, etc. But, as long as your final product is the correct dia....... it should be a workable idea, notwithstanding whether the bullet is suitable for the particular rifle.

[Lead pot]

Ah, now I see. You are a BP shooter......and likely have never PP for smokeless, let alone a bolt-action rifle (it CERTAINLY would seem that way, from your comments). All I can add is that BP/ PP shooting is apples and oranges......compared to PP/ SP shooting. With BP, you patch to BORE diameter.....with SP, you patch to GROOVE diameter. Bore diameter patching usually won't work with SP. In summary - they AREN'T the same thing.

So, you damaged your Sharps chamber in 1998, obviously by doing something you shouldn't have....... and this makes you an expert about SP/ PP shooting ???

Yes I damaged a Sharps chamber.
But it was not something I could control or maybe it was I cant say for sure. It was do to a hang fire where the primer pushed the bullet forward enough and when the powder ignited there was enough space between the charge and the ball to do the damage.

Seems like you know all answers so I wont have to wast my time typing a response to my way of doing it and thoughts.
And you are right I don't patch for bolt guns and smokeless powder loads on regular bases but I hate to admit that I have done it with pore results.

So go ahead and give me your best shot I have thick skin.

I hope all the best for you Brian but filter out the BS.

Lp.

[bcp477]

Lead pot,

I have no desire or intention to give you any kind of "shot". I took exception to your comments, simply because they didn't make sense. I do have a predilection to not particularly like seeing people talking out of there a##es on technical subjects, thus misleading those who have questions. You have now admitted that you don't really know much about PP for smokeless. I applaud your honesty - many people would not have done even that, when trapped in a corner, so to speak. I respect you for that - but I don't respect misleading people, from ego or anything else. There's no excuse for it. But, we're all human.....and none perfect.

As for me "knowing everything".....what a joke that is. I consider myself a strictly a novice in this business. But, I am not afraid to state what I know to be fact - and defend it as such. I do not assert, nor ever have, that I have "all of the answers". Don't expect me to apologize for standing up to obvious misinformation, though.

Lastly, your closing to Brian, seems curious. You wish him the best - then ask him to "filter out the BS". Since he said nothing that could be taken as BS..... I am assuming that this was in fact, a "shot" at me (or someone else who posted on this thread). Since I am the only one who stood up to your misinformation, I'll assume that you meant me. So, what BS would that be ? Since you admit that you know little about PP with smokeless, how would you be qualified to judge what is "BS" and what is not ? So, I'll simply assume that this "shot" was your bruised ego talking. So be it.

Well, for me, this thread has gone far enough. Good day, one and all.

[Lead pot]

Ok Ben.
I will ask you this.
Tell me where I have misled Brian with my answer.
When I said that I don't load a PP bullet with smokeless powder in a bolt gun dont mean that I haven't done it to see how it works.
I have tried this in my 03-A-3 and 1 also the Eddy what I said I found that the patch does catch at times and will push the patch back at the Ogive and recovered patches where badly burned and showed gas blow by.
As far as pressure spikes go run a strain gauge test you might change your way of thinking.
Nuff of this AR SK That means end of transmission signing off.