Revolver Reloading

[Frank]

It would seem to me loading longer would have advantages, but I haven't read anything to that regard on this site, except one opinion that seating a bullet longer so it is in the throat promotes better alignment. Now seating longer also allows flexibility to add more powder. So what is the optimal seating depth? When given a choice of two crimp grooves, an upper and a lower, if you choose one, why do you make that choice?

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Well Frank, most of us look for what works best for the firearm we are working with, Cast Boolits have no Special place in any firearm... so we keep testing until we find "Our Sweet Spot" or say to heck with it..... There is no fix that fixes all.......<

[shotman]

I would tend to think that If you change a little no problem. But if you change a 1/4 of an inch you would change alot of pressure. If you load with just a little bit in the case. Then there is not much for pressure to build so powder will be burning in the barrel

[Lloyd Smale]

i will usually seat a bullet out if possible but in a hard kicking gun you need to keep in mind that bullet jump can happen and it can tie your gun up. Nothing you want to happen in a hunting or defense situation so i like to have at least an 1/8 of an inch of room between the end of the bullet and the end of the cylinder. I really dont think seating deap causes inaccuracy. As a matter of fact ive seen it go both ways. One way to look at it is to consider a wad cutter. It is seated flush with the end of the case and there still plenty accurate. I think the major variable in seating dept isnt the bullet jump but the way it changes the pressure characteristics of the load. Some loads shoot better with a bit more pressure and some with a bit less. Varying seating dept can change where our load makes its peak pressure in a barrel and can change accuracy just like changing primers or adding or subtracting powder or bullet weight. When i have a multi crimp grove bullet every load i shoot with that bullet is tried with both seating depts.
It would seem to me loading longer would have advantages, but I haven't read anything to that regard on this site, except one opinion that seating a bullet longer so it is in the throat promotes better alignment. Now seating longer also allows flexibility to add more powder. So what is the optimal seating depth? When given a choice of two crimp grooves, an upper and a lower, if you choose one, why do you make that choice?

[Bret4207]

Well Frank, most of us look for what works best for the firearm we are working with, Cast Boolits have no Special place in any firearm... so we keep testing until we find "Our Sweet Spot" or say to heck with it..... There is no fix that fixes all.......<

Bingo! What works best in one gun may be a disaster in another. Seating depth is one of the variables you can play with to "fine tune" a load.

[9.3X62AL]

Good summation above. One other "variable" can be a revolver's cylinder length vs. the boolit's crimp groove or drive band end location. Classic examples are Lyman #358429 and #358156 in an N-frame S&W 357 Magnum revolver with Mag cases........both require deeper seating and use of (repectively) the drive band end or the upper crimp groove--or the cartridge will be over-long.

[Frank]

Lloyd wrote
Varying seating dept can change where our load makes its peak pressure in a barrel and can change accuracy just like changing primers or adding or subtracting powder or bullet weight.
How does barrel length contribute to this equation?

[44man]

Lloyd wrote
How does barrel length contribute to this equation?
Very true Frank. Depends on chamber pressure, burn rate and where the pressure starts to peak, either in the case or farther down the barrel. That is why super short barrels are a big pain with the large calibers. You run out of burn and push so a fast powder is needed that ruins boolits. Changing seating depth kind of does the same so if you seat a boolit deeper, pressure rises faster and keeps the load from doing what you want in the barrel.
I have not found the run to the forcing cone to hurt accuracy at all and never worry about it. Look at the 45-70 BFR, the most accurate revolver I have. You need a flashlight to find the boolit nose! :D
My only concern would be a Taylor throat that extends the run more at the point velocity has increased too much to prevent skidding.
Either way, making a boolit harder to withstand forcing cone and rifling impact will cure the problem.
Powder choice can change with boolit run so the deeper in the chamber a boolit is, a slower powder can work better.
Even boolit weight can change everything.

[Frank]

44man said
Powder choice can change with boolit run so the deeper in the chamber a boolit is, a slower powder can work better.

Deeper from the front, or the back?

Shotman said
If you load with just a little bit in the case. Then there is not much for pressure to build so powder will be burning in the barrel.

These two ideas are related. Right?

[Frank]

Lloyd said
i will usually seat a bullet out if possible but in a hard kicking gun you need to keep in mind that bullet jump can happen and it can tie your gun up. Nothing you want to happen in a hunting or defense situation so i like to have at least an 1/8 of an inch of room between the end of the bullet and the end of the cylinder. I really dont think seating deap causes inaccuracy. As a matter of fact ive seen it go both ways. One way to look at it is to consider a wad cutter. It is seated flush with the end of the case and there still plenty accurate. I think the major variable in seating dept isnt the bullet jump but the way it changes the pressure characteristics of the load. Some loads shoot better with a bit more pressure and some with a bit less. Varying seating dept can change where our load makes its peak pressure in a barrel and can change accuracy just like changing primers or adding or subtracting powder or bullet weight. When i have a multi crimp grove bullet every load i shoot with that bullet is tried with both seating depts.
Thanks, Lloyd, for the contribution. :D

[44man]

44man said
Deeper from the front, or the back?
From the front. You do not need a boolit right at the end of the cylinder throats.
Short cylinders cut down the versatility and all boolits need short noses so it is hard to find a lot of different weight boolits that fit. I like some room in front of a boolit.
Lloyd said it very well indeed.

[Frank]

9.3X62AL said
both require deeper seating and use of (repectively) the drive band end or the upper crimp groove--or the cartridge will be over-long.

Or if too deep in the case, maybe overly short. In the BFR 45-70, it has a long cylinder, but the thoat is also long .850" approx. But one boolit I have doesn't reach it. I'd like it to be sitting in the constriction rather than not, but like Lloyd said, maybe that doesn't matter.

Can you tell I love details? :bigsmyl2:

[Frank]

44man said
From the front. You do not need a boolit right at the end of the cylinder throats.
Short cylinders cut down the versatility and all boolits need short noses so it is hard to find a lot of different weight boolits that fit. I like some room in front of a boolit.
Lloyd said it very well indeed.
Got it. Thanks.

[sniper]

A small variation in length will produce minimal change. A casting guru, Veral sombody or other, opines, and loads his revolver cartridges to require a small amount of force to chamber them, so they are supported at both ends, and he reports better accuracy.

That is fine for him, but, not so fine for law enforcement personel, or shooters in an IPSC match, if they have to stop and push each round into the chamber. (kinda moot, because only us dinosaurs shoot wheelguns anymore) hee hee!

Max. overall lengths, like stated in all reloading manuals, have been established with millions of rounds, so they are reliable in almost any firearm. Some "adjustment" could be beneficial, but only your firearm knows for sure, and it will tell you. But, if you want total reliability, with no hassle, and/or trying to remember what you did with [I]these[I]loads, go by the book, forget the ballistic proctology, and have fun!:wink:

[Char-Gar]

Frank... You are correct. Elmer Keith designed his bullets with three driving bands of equal length. The wide front driving band was supposed to enter the cylinder throat for proper alignment.

As stated seating depth will have an effect on powder capacity, which in turn will have an effect on the pressure. A round with the bullet seated farther out, will increase the powder capacity resulting in a decrease in pressure.

That said, all sixgun loads should be worked up to suit the individual sixgun, which makes the depth fo seating not that important, as it is just one of the variables in working up a good load with a particular bullet for a particular sixgun.

[9.3X62AL]

Can you tell I love details? :bigsmyl2:

"Details" are often the ZIP Code in which you find accuracy and top performance.

My point was that first and foremost, the ammo has to fit and function. After that is accomplished, we can massage the overall length and seating depth to optimize things for a given revolver, but always with reliability and fit in the back of our minds. My reloading has been DEEPLY influenced by hunting and law enforcement experience, so my prejudices and opinions might differ from those of a shooter who punches paper. The best we can do here is share our own experiences--feelings--beliefs--and opinions, and let the readers form their own practices from what they glean from our collective recitals.

[JesterGrin_1]

Okay since we are on the subject lol.

I am going to try and use my Ranch Dog .432-265Gr RNFP GC and it just will not function through my Marlin. But if I seat it out a bit it will cycle fine. This bullet does not have the normal lube grooves but thin ones the size of the crimp groove. So if I set it out a couple of grooves should I increase the powder charge or leave it be since the weight of the boolit is a constant? I use H-110 and W-296.

I know that if I seat the Boolit out further this will lower the pressure of the charge. Thus since W-296 and H-110 says it should not be downloaded I was thinking the extra air space in the case could effectivly cause it to be a downloaded charge or close to it?

This is also for my Ruger Super Blackawk Bisley Hunter in .44 Mag and my S&W 629 Classic. :)

.44 Man told me to use 22.OGr of W-296 with the RD 432-265Gr
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/SHAKERATTLEROLL/RanchDog.gif

[Frank]

What's your best load, and how far are you going out? I'll tell my genie. She has all the info. I need. :coffeecom

[JesterGrin_1]

Your Genie lol. Okay I will measure the AOL BRB. :)

Okay it is now 1.690 AOL

In the Crimp Groove is 1.55

[Frank]

OK. It depends what's giving you accuracy. Does it like a given barrel time, pressure or velocity? Changing the length affects different things. So if we increase the length the amount you specified, and you now use 22.0 grns of H110/W296, to achieve the same velocity you need 23.5 grns. If your Marlin needs a given barrel time, then it should like 24.5 grns. If pressure is the governing variable, then you will need to go to 25.1. So you'll have to try them all. What will be interesting will be which level gives you the most accuracy. Try it out and let us know. Start at 23 and work thru to 25.5. Or load a few at the above charges only and see what it does. Whichever level responds best, then work up and down at that level in small increments. Remember, going over 23.5 means more velocity and the need for a harder alloy. But then you'll get less expansion on game. Let us know what worked.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive been doing some testing with the group buy 300 lfn in the 44mags. It has three crimp groves. Ive been using a 4 inch smith a 4 5/8s ruger and a 3.5 inch ruger redhawk and a marlin 44 rifle. First the bullet wont run in my marlin at any lenght but thats a differnt problem. The thing is that each of those guns prefer the bullet seated at different depts with the same loads. Switch the load and it changes all over again as to which dept they prefer. Ill give you another example. Ive got a ruger 3 screw conversion in 41 mag that doesnt allow most bullets seated in the crimp grove so i seat them over the top driving band. It shoots great like that. I had a bunch of ammo for it i wanted shot up so i took my 58 and a 4 5/8s blackhawk to the range one day and found that they shot great in both guns and actually found that the 58 shot that load better then anything ive ever tried in it. Im not going to tell you I understand why or spout off about pressure, burning rates, how primers effect it or barrel lenght because i dont think anyone really knows and anyone who says they do is full of bs. What it comes down to is seating dept is just another variable like powder, primers, bullet design, alloy and a bunch of other things that can effect the way a gun shoots and there is no hard and fast rule. every gun likes a certain combination best and sometimes it makes me shake my head as to what works but the only way to find out is to try it.

[dubber123]

ive been doing some testing with the group buy 300 lfn in the 44mags. It has three crimp groves. Ive been using a 4 inch smith a 4 5/8s ruger and a 3.5 inch ruger redhawk and a marlin 44 rifle. First the bullet wont run in my marlin at any lenght but thats a differnt problem. The thing is that each of those guns prefer the bullet seated at different depts with the same loads. Switch the load and it changes all over again as to which dept they prefer. Ill give you another example. Ive got a ruger 3 screw conversion in 41 mag that doesnt allow most bullets seated in the crimp grove so i seat them over the top driving band. It shoots great like that. I had a bunch of ammo for it i wanted shot up so i took my 58 and a 4 5/8s blackhawk to the range one day and found that they shot great in both guns and actually found that the 58 shot that load better then anything ive ever tried in it. Im not going to tell you I understand why or spout off about pressure, burning rates, how primers effect it or barrel lenght because i dont think anyone really knows and anyone who says they do is full of bs. What it comes down to is seating dept is just another variable like powder, primers, bullet design, alloy and a bunch of other things that can effect the way a gun shoots and there is no hard and fast rule. every gun likes a certain combination best and sometimes it makes me shake my head as to what works but the only way to find out is to try it.


You gotta stop making sense, Lloyd. People will start to wonder if somethings wrong with you...[smilie=1:

[Frank]

Lloyd Smale said
every gun likes a certain combination best and sometimes it makes me shake my head as to what works but the only way to find out is to try it.


It's important to have a good starting point to arrive at the best result in the fewest shots. And that's what an analysis in the beginning provides. Plus it saves on components, time and fatigue.