NOE 311 - 165gr

[kbstenberg]

This is only my first time casting rifle bullets so I may be way off.
I would like to hear from others on their moulds!
Mine is is casting .308 with WW + 1.5% tin
The bullets that I didn't throw back weighed are as follows:
170gr. / 2 168gr /12 167gr/ 109 166gr / 27 165gr / 8
I still wasn't satisfied with my keepers. So I intend on throwing most of these back. Only keeping the best.
I think I still have to increase the temperature I am casting at because I was still getting very minor creases , an small pitting
Question With the weight spread i was getting would YOU. Weigh all the bullets to cull the few extremes of either end?
Here are the bullet creases and pitting i was getting. Would you throw them back for better quality?15619

15620

15621

[mdi]

Well, I would. I'd also try more heat to the melt and molds. Crank up your melter and pre heat the mold a bit more. It just takes a little practice to learn to control the heat and get a rythem going to keep the mold at the right temp. Good start!

[wilddog45]

Crank up the temps(a thermometer would help) and be sure and flux the melt and skim off the dross. Also make sure you keep stirring the melt to keep it from separating.That should give you more consistent weight.

[Ben]

kbstenberg :

Can you tell us if you cleaned this mold before attempting to cast with it. If so, what cleaning procedure did you use?

Ben

[qajaq59]

Ok, you first try is over and everything will begin to improve as you go. It takes a little while to cover all the "clean the mold", "get the temps right", and some of the other things, but you'll get there soon enough. Just check out what the guys mentioned and things will improve quicker then you think.

[kbstenberg]

Ben i set the mould in boiling water with a couple drops of water, wiped with old bath towel. Then used brake clean, wiped with different bath towel twice.
As per NEO's request heated twice in oven an let cool befor making bullets.
Heated on the melting pot both on the mould an sprue cutter sides..
Started molding in one cavitie, progresivle increased to all 4.
If i remelt all of the first bullets should i add more tin because of the loss durring remelt

[Le Loup Solitaire]

The pics that you furnished indicate a problem that is well known around these parts. First possibility; the mold cavity(ies) have some trace of oil or other hydocarbon in it/them. Even the smallest amount of it will cause incomplete fillout or "raisins" and goofed up bands/grooves and rings. Getting the stuff completely out can be done by soaking the blocks for a while in a good solvent like lacquer thinner, paint thinner or acetone. A toothbrush helps alot. All three solvents are nasty so have adequate ventilation. When dry (compressed air speeds things up) preheat the mold at moderate heat for a while (20 minutes should suffice) before casting. Some folks also use brake cleaner or carb cleaner. Others boil the blocks in Oakite or even put the blocks in the dishwasher. There is no end to the prep fun to getting the blocks squeeky clean. Second possible cause for "wrinklies" is the temp being too low; cold alloy doesn't flow well....not anywhere near as good as melt that is in the right temp range. You mention that you are using some tin and this is important as the design that you are using is a multi-banded/ringed one, similar to the Loverin designs and those can be difficult to cast, especially in the smaller diameters. Tin increases the "flowability" of the alloy. It also lightens the weight of the bullet a bit and increases the diameter slightly. Flux and stir often and skim the dross/crud off the top of the melt. Another possible cause, and I mention it for it can be a total awful nightmare, is metal contamination...usually zinc which pops up most often from wheelweights. Without zinc WW can do fine, but when zinc is present even in small amounts it causes havoc. Other than tossing the metal there are rituals that can be followed to get the alloy to work. I hope that you do not have that condition; I have had my share of agony with it. Another cause for incomplete fillout is improper venting of the blocks...so check your vent lines and make sure that they are clean. Also the sprue cutter must not be too tight; it should not be ..."up and down sloppy fit: but should swing free on its own weight. When actually pouring-- a stream of melt slightly smaller in diameter than the sprueplate pourhole is sufficient; it'll fill the mold well and allow any air to get by it at the same time. Barring some Voodoo curse on your mold I think checking these conditions as outlined above plus some practice will have you cranking out great casts with a minimum of rejects very soon. Enjoy the hobby. LLS

[Buckshot]

..............I'd clean the mould again. Boiling water and dish soap like the first time but use an old toothbrush to scrub the cavities. Rinse in hot water and let it air dry. Since the blocks will be hot they'll dry quickly. Run your pot temp at about 800 degrees. You shouldn't need to add any tin, as you won't have lost any. It doesn't evaporate, and the only loss would come from fluxing improperly.

Stick the bottom front edge into the melt once up to temp, and keep it there for a 15 count. Take it out for a 30 count to let the heat migrate and stabilize. Commence casting with all cavities. Don't worry about the first couple of drops. You can glance at them but don't fool with'em. If they look pretty good you should be home free by the 3rd drop. If by the 5th or 6th drop you're still seeing imperfections, my first suggestion would be to stop and soot the cavities with a Zippo or Bic type lighter. NO CANDLES.

Recommence casting, and you should see good boolits by the second to third drop, if that long. All moulds are individuals and some like to have the lead sent into the cavity in different ways. Some seem to deliver better boolits if the alloy is sluiced off the edge of the spruehole. Others may want it straight down through the spruehole. You should have a good solid flow of alloy. When the cavity comes up full you should see the alloy 'bounce' up in a hump, almost like it had been compressed in the cavity by the flow.

Sometimes you can feel, or more 'sense' the molten lead slapping the underside of the sprueplate before it humps up. Keep the flow going for a bit. You'll learn to tilt the blocks slightly on a multi-cavity mould in that split second before the cavity fills to keep runnoff out of the next cavity. Do not stop the flow( if using a bottom pour) but move the blocks to the next cavity. The continuous flow keeps the nozzle hot.

You can also try letting the alloy fall a bit before entering the cavity. It accelerates a bit once leaving the pot, but it also cools a few degrees and entering the cavity it hits the cooler blocks and may cause imperfections. Naturally it depends on alloy and blocks temps for this to happen or not. Conversely you can hold the mould up closer to the nozzle.

To me this is the only voo-doo part of casting lead boolits. Everything else is mechanics. Pretty soon you'll have this all figured out and it won't be any big deal. Once those perfect slugs start hitting the towel (or water bucket) life is wonderfull and woe betide anyone who might dare interupt.

Not all moulds are particular. Some are as willing to please as a little fat puppy. May they be blessed and multiply:-) In your career you'll also have cranky moulds that suddenly get religion, and you'll try to figure out what you did. Don't because you didn't do anything. The mould gods were just testing, and you won!

Or you can do like 9.3x62Al did. That is drive 80 miles just so he could throw a Lee 458-405F as far as he could into the Salton Sea.

................Buckshot

[Vly]

I have the same mould in 3 cavity. You have received some good info so far. I would distill this down to 3 things to try -

- preheat your mould on a hot plate - you need more heat
- adjust ( loosen ) your sprue plate as described, mine was too tight as shipped.
- lightly smoke the mould like Buckshot described. I went from wrinkles to good boolits with alittle smoke.

Good luck.

http://www.fototime.com/3A206A54577DFCC/standard.jpg

[SwedeNelson]

I agree with Buckshot and Vly summed it up perfect.
A little smoke the right temp and go to town.

If you have any more problems PM me.
Great thread and the advise here is spot on.

Swede Nelson

[Jhess]

Vly,
Those are some pretty boolits!

[largom]

I just finished casting some NOE 311-165's. I have the 2 cavity mold with one cavity hollow pointed. This is one of if not the best casting mold I own. Perhaps the Great Spirit was watching over me that day for when I weighed my boolits they all weighed within + or - 2/10's gr. I have never cast boolits with that close of a weight variation.

Follow all of the above advice and practice. Practice makes perfect!
Larry

[Ben]

Le Loup Solitaire & Buckshot have said it ALL.

If you follow their suggestions, you'll have good bullets in a short time.

Keep us posted with your progress and hopefully some photos of some nice bullets !

Ben

[kbstenberg]

Well this is the 3rd time i have writen this. The computer gods just don't want me to find the answers.
I re-cleaned the mould again. Boiling Water, Touch of D Soap, Tooth brush (twice) . I allso cleaned Hihec's 503.
The dia. increased from .308/ .3085 to .309/.3095. I was still useing WW+ 1.5% SN. On the heat i went from an 8 to a 9 on the dial of the dripomatic. I realy need to get a thermomiter. The weight on the first bullets varied about 4gr. this time the difference went down to 1 gr. I was going to weigh a hundred bullets, but after 25 i could see a patern. So i quit.
Allmost all of the wrinkles disapeared as well as the little pits on the nose.
On the first melting i kept 10 to 15% of the bullets, this time it was something like 55 to 60% that i kept
So all in all i think i learned a lot, but know i have a long way to go. Like the comedian Jeckie Gleason used to say " How Sweet It Is"
An i can't say enough to all of you for giving of your time to help me a complete stranger. Especially Buckshot, Ben, Qajaq 59. Thank you all
Kevin

[257 Shooter]

It really is wonderful to be associated with such great guys!

[Bret4207]

IMO most moulds take a couple 3 casting sessions to "season". Maybe there are evil spirits in the mould that eventually burn out. All I know an older mould will almost always cast easier for me than a brand new. Same for a mould that's been lapped, but that I can explain because all the little machining boogers are wiped out. Anyway, glad to hear it's going better. You've gotten excellent advice but I wanted to add a couple things.

With all due respect to Rick and Vly, I want to stress that smoking is among the last resorts you should try. All it is is a mask for the problem. What IS the problem? Depends on the mould. Mostly I think the soot fills tiny imperfections that make the boolit stick or block some of the oils still in the mould from contacting the alloy. The bad part is smoking always leads to a slightly smaller boolit and it keeps your mould running colder. Both are bad in most cases. The boogers you can fix with Leementing. The oils with cleaning. If you still have an issue then you may have to smoke it. For goodness sakes don't try the spray on mould release!!!! That stuff sux swamp water.

One of my "big ideas" lately is differentiating between pot temp and mould temp. A lot of folks seem to miss the fact that you can run your pot at max but if the mould isn't full of hot alloy it's cooling. Casting rhythm determines mould temp- the more often you fill the mould with hot alloy the hotter the mould will run. I have no proof beyond my own observations of my casting, but I wonder if some of the "need for tin" wouldn't be offset somewhat by a hotter mould. Slow sprue cooling can be remedied with the Bruce B method of cooling it on a damp rag.

Just a couple thoughts this great thread got me thinking on.

[qajaq59]

On the smoking... I noticed when I first got my Lyman mold I needed to smoke it to get good releases. But about 3,000 bullets later I no longer need to bother with it. Maybe molds smooth out with age?

[Bret4207]

On the smoking... I noticed when I first got my Lyman mold I needed to smoke it to get good releases. But about 3,000 bullets later I no longer need to bother with it. Maybe molds smooth out with age?

I would imagine that every time we cycle the mould it helps smooth things out.

[kbstenberg]

It just hit me!!
On both the new moulds i used last weekend NOE 311 / 165 , and Hihec 503. Both moulds were dropping small dia. The NOE at .309 and the 503 at .429 to .4295
Both times i used WW + 1.5 sn
I realise it has to be something i am doing wrong.

[280Ackley]

I have a related question on the 311 165 NOE. I cast with it the the first time last weekend. I got a 5 cavity. I don't have a much experience with casting and practically non with the big multiple cavity moulds. When casting with this mould the sprue plate loosened much quicker than with my single and double cavity steel moulds. It seemed like I was tightening it ever secend or third drop. I know that the different metals used expand and contract at different rates, but this bothered me. Is there a method for keeping it tightened down better?

[Bret4207]

It just hit me!!
On both the new moulds i used last weekend NOE 311 / 165 , and Hihec 503. Both moulds were dropping small dia. The NOE at .309 and the 503 at .429 to .4295
Both times i used WW + 1.5 sn
I realise it has to be something i am doing wrong.

It's your alloy. No big deal really once you understand it. Each alloy drops a different size. Some gain a little back after a couple weeks. You can gain a little diameter by adding more tin/antimony. If you smoke he mould it'll drop smaller too since the smoke (or mould release) reduces the available space for the alloy to fill.

Give the boolits a couple weeks and see what they measure. Also make sure you mic is accurate. MAny times I've seen "undersized" or "oversized" boolits be the result of a caliper or mic that's off a couple thou.

[kbstenberg]

280 good evening. Did you see the setscrew on the front of the mold for the sprue bolt. Yes i had the same problem till i really tightened the set screw. it still loosens after a while.
How did your Dia. come out? Maybe i am just reading my caliper incorrectly.

[leftiye]

Plus 1 on the small size being about the alloy. My straight wheelweights actually cast smaller than my 50/50 WW/lead alloy does (yeah, I know the theory goes the other way, I may have something in that batch I'm not aware of). Had to beagle the mold for the straight WWs.