lower end of the loading data

[primerless]

Loading the J boolits I was alway's on the other end of the book. It looks like I need to be a little ....alot more careful working on the other end of the book.
I started out with the most powder in my stock universial clays. The starting load for the J boolit was 4.2 grs loaded some rounds.. shot... and no sign of high pressure so i started with this load. The barrel had a little lead....so i thought i would back it down a little ( below starting load) 3.8gr.......shot a few rounds and they shot fine on the paper. I stopped and checked some of the cases and the primers were flat. I was a little confused because I had an extremly light load. The 4.2 loads primers looked fine.

Ok so I fire another round and the recoil felt the same as other rounds but the gun had jammed, I eject the case and it was solid black, and the boolits in mag had a little on the first two.

A look down the barrel and guess what i found, yep the boolit. Is this what they call detonation? I am not used to working on the lower end on the loading book.

Is the universial to slow for the cast boolit. The mould was RCBS 82027 CN that weighed out to 129gr. This really scared me because we know what would of happen if I would of shot the next round.

I would like my new boolits down range not in my face.

[jdgabbard]

Not detonation... Its what you call a squib load. Either not enough powder, or no powder present in the case. Check that gun good before you decide to shoot it again. This is where having a gunsmith friend comes in handy...

[SciFiJim]

I eject the case and it was solid black, and the boolits in mag had a little on the first two.
This is from insufficient powder to expand the case to seal in the chamber. It was made worse when the boolit stuck in the barrel, all of the gas (and soot) had to go somewhere.

[sagacious]

...shot a few rounds and they shot fine on the paper. I stopped and checked some of the cases and the primers were flat. I was a little confused because I had an extremly light load. The 4.2 loads primers looked fine.
You will probably find that flat primers are common on the extremely light loads. The primer pops and backs out of the pocket and expands a little, and then as pressure increases the case slides back in the chamber-- but the slightly expanded primer can't fit and gets squashed flat. It looks like a way over-pressure sign, but it's also indicative of very low pressure. On the low-pressure loads, slight pressure variations will often cause some of the primers to get flattened more than others. When you reprime though, you'll feel that the primer pocket is still tight, and not stretched.

In the 4.2gr loads, the pressure is just high enough to cause the primer and case to move back relatively uniformly, and thus no backed-out squashed primer. That's why 4.2grs is the starting load in that recipe.


Ok so I fire another round and the recoil felt the same as other rounds but the gun had jammed, I eject the case and it was solid black, and the boolits in mag had a little on the first two.

A look down the barrel and guess what i found, yep the boolit. Is this what they call detonation? I am not used to working on the lower end on the loading book.
Not detonation. Just an occasional result when shooting very low-pressure loads. I have seen very low loads that worked OK in one rifle, but stuck a bullet every time in another. This is common. When you're dealing with very light loads, the small differences in case capacity, exact chamber dimensions, and even barrel dimensions or wear can have a substancial effect on performance. There's only so much gas to work with in the light loads, and if it's just not quite enough, you'll get a stuck bullet and a blackened case. You always have to keep your eyes open for stuck bullets when loading really low.


Is the universial to slow for the cast boolit. The mould was RCBS 82027 CN that weighed out to 129gr. This really scared me because we know what would of happen if I would of shot the next round.

I would like my new boolits down range not in my face.
All guns are different. In your case you indicate that you backed the powder down until it was below the suggested minimum. That's stuck-bullet territory. At a certain indeterminate point in down-loading, they'll stick in the barrel... or stick occasionally. Never load below the suggested minimum load, and even so, no rapid-fire with the low-pressure loads. :)

Good luck, hope this helps!

[TAWILDCATT]

a lead bullet has less friction than a jack.so does not build up pressure as much.
are you shooting a 9 mm auto?use what you were using for the jac.:coffee:

[selmerfan]

Cartridge information would be helpful, as well as what firearm you're shooting.

[GrizzLeeBear]

Ditto Selmerfan. We need more info.

[primerless]

That's why 4.2grs is the starting load in that recipe.
I was using load data for a j boolit. I have read to start off loading lead you need to reduce charge by 10%
I am loading for a 9mm Browning High power. The brass is range brass.

The recipe of lead being used is 50/50 .....clip on wheel weight/sticky wheel weight. No water drop.

[Rocky Raab]

Read again what the eponymous member sagacious said.

[primerless]

Rocky,
I did as you said, and also checked out your site...very briefly tho. Looks like a good book. I will check it out later.

My family and I thank you for you serving your country.

[Ekalb2000]

Holy cow, the very same thing happend to me today with my 9mm. When I pulled the trigger just a little pop. no recoil. Boolit stuck in about an inch up there. This happened nine times out of 100. There was two things I did different.
First, when I lube them I use LLA and I usually let the two coats cure for about two days, with one day between coats. Not this go round. Two coats in one 24 hour period. Then straight to loading. But they didnt seam any more sticky than usuall.
Second. I used a very light crimp on them. I am thinking that this was maybe to light. But it was just enough to take the bell out.
I was using a 124gr boolit, with a 3.7gr charge of W231.
The start load is 3.3 and 4.0 for max load.
I have shot 3.4 with this powder in the very same pistol. Just with a bit heavier crimp though, and have had no problems.
The reason for the light crimp was to see if the slight leading I was getting was from a tight crimp deforming the boolit.
That black sooty case sure is wierd looking huh. And talk about a dirty gun. 231 has never done this.

primerless, sorry for the hijack, but I thought it was too wierd that the same thing happened on the same day, although you were up a little earlier than me.

[sagacious]

I was using load data for a j boolit. I have read to start off loading lead you need to reduce charge by 10%
I am loading for a 9mm Browning High power. The brass is range brass.

The recipe of lead being used is 50/50 .....clip on wheel weight/sticky wheel weight. No water drop.
Primerless,
OK, thanks, that additional info is helpful.

First, I would urge you to search exhaustively for the reload recipe that most accurately duplicates your specific components. There is so much reloading info for the 9mm Luger that you should be able to find exactly what you need. But you may still have to do a little range-testing and function-testing when you find a recipe for your Hi-Power, or any other semi-auto pistol. Often, low-power loads won't cycle the action reliably. It's better to look for as close a recipe to your components as possible, expecially so for a relatively high-pressure round like the 9mm, that generates all that pressure with very little powder.

So, the first step is to check with the powder manufacturer directly. This is easy in this case, since Hodgdon has a website with tons of reload info for 9mm. I would recommend that you only use published load recipes, and not extrapolate/substitute/etc unless absolutely necessary, and then only with great caution and circumspection.

The Hodgdon data for a 125gr lead bullet is the closest match to your component bullet. The lowest data indicated may not function your pistol, so you may have to test a few load levels. Don't load below the published starting load. Here's the Hodgdon website: http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Another potential frustration could be your powder measurement tool. Be sure to check it against a scale, since a slight variation on a small powder charge can also cause exactly the problem you described above.

Hope this helps, keep us posted on your progress!

[primerless]

Ekalb200 sorry to here you had the same problem. For the next few days I will be working on the shop so not to many rounds from me in a while.

I have shot enough and am trying to get set up a little better for my casting. If you have some luck with some good loads give me a pm.

[sagacious]

Holy cow, the very same thing happend to me today with my 9mm. When I pulled the trigger just a little pop. no recoil. Boolit stuck in about an inch up there. This happened nine times out of 100. There was two things I did different.
First, when I lube them I use LLA and I usually let the two coats cure for about two days, with one day between coats. Not this go round. Two coats in one 24 hour period. Then straight to loading. But they didnt seam any more sticky than usuall.
Second. I used a very light crimp on them. I am thinking that this was maybe to light. But it was just enough to take the bell out.
I was using a 124gr boolit, with a 3.7gr charge of W231.
The start load is 3.3 and 4.0 for max load.
I have shot 3.4 with this powder in the very same pistol. Just with a bit heavier crimp though, and have had no problems.
...
E,
Forgive me for saying this, but the drying time-frame for your LLA bullets seems like an unlikely culprit for a stuck bullet at almost any loading level.

A check of the Winchester reloading data website (same website as the Hodgdon data) seems to indicate that your loads are very low, or even substantially lower than the recommended start loads. As I mentioned above, that's stuck bullet territory. Whether the crimp level in this instance is adequate to produce consistent ignition is open for debate, but loading very low still leaves a margin for error that can result in a stuck bullet. With a very low load, sometimes ya win, and sometimes ya don't. If 9 out of 100 bullets stuck, then ya won 91% of the time. ;)

Check the website and review the published loads for your bullet and WW231. http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

Hope this helps. Good shooting, and good luck! :)

[primerless]

Sagacious,
Thanks for the added information, I just downloaded it and see if anything is different from the one I have.
I am loading on a Dillion 550b....before getting started I check my load on two different scales one being a electronic RCBS and the other a manual.
What do you think about the recipe I was using, should I water drop bollits for the 9mm.

And yes I will keep yall posted...... it just may be a few days. I have been installing an indoor casting bench so this has kelp me from sooting. Plus I sure like casting new boolits almost as much as shooting them!
I hope my next post will a success story instead of allot of questions!

It sure is nice have a good wife, when I got in from work she had the site pulled up for me.

Thanks all
Primerless

[sagacious]

Sagacious,
Thanks for the added information, I just downloaded it and see if anything is different from the one I have.
I am loading on a Dillion 550b....before getting started I check my load on two different scales one being a electronic RCBS and the other a manual.
What do you think about the recipe I was using, should I water drop bollits for the 9mm.

And yes I will keep yall posted...... it just may be a few days. I have been installing an indoor casting bench so this has kelp me from sooting. Plus I sure like casting new boolits almost as much as shooting them!
I hope my next post will a success story instead of allot of questions!

It sure is nice have a good wife, when I got in from work she had the site pulled up for me.

Thanks all

Primerless
Sounds good. I don't use Universal Clays, so I cannot post any personal experience with that powder. According to my review of the data listed on the Hodgdon site, the range for Universal is 3.8 to 4.3grs with a 125gr lead bullet. Based on your range results, you may wish to bump it up a tenth or two and try again. That should make a positive difference. Just work up in small steps, since the powder charge range is narrow.

I use the Lee 120tc bullet in 9mm, which is similar to the RCBS 82027. I use straight clip-on ww lead + about 1% tin and it drops at 122grs from my mold. Since those are both truncated cone bullets, there is room for a variation in the cartridge OAL, and if the OAL is too long, it can affect (reduce) the pressure level. Low-level loads in small-capacity cases are very often sensitive to this. Be absolutely sure to check your OAL against the recipe recommendation.

I do not water-drop my 9mm bullets for use with my Hi-Power. I do not get any leading (I use a soft beeswax-based homemade lube), and the accuracy is excellent. But each mold and gun is different, and so may be your results. I do water-quench some of my larger revolver bullets. My suggestion on water-dropping would be to try your 50/50 clip-on/sticky ww alloy air-cooled and see how the accuracy and leading is once you find a consistent load. If it checks out OK, then you may not have to bother with water-dropping at all. If you can't get the accuracy you want, or the bore gets leaded, then you may wish to try water-dropping and see if it improves the results.

No worries about the questions. That's how ya learn, and it's nice that learning about reloading is fun. Good luck with the carpentry and bullet casting!

[Bret4207]

Crimp may or maynot play a factor in what you experirenced. IMO, and it's only an opinion, crimp DOES alter the burn rate and pressure curve. Others say it doesn't. I would not be inclined to go with a very light crimp in any auto loader and if you plan on any defensive or rapid fire work I wouldn't be going for the low ball loads in an auto. Develop a dependable load, accurate load.

Quenching/heat treating? Depends on the gun and what it wants. That's a try it and see question. A harder boolit will work just as well as a softer boolit many times, but I' not in favor of hardness for hardness's sake. That's just advertising hype and if it requires expensive or exotic alloys then I try to work around it.

[Trapshooter]

I've had problems with powder bridging going into the measuring chamber when using Universal and most of the shotgun "Dot" powders in small charges. I don't get overweight charges, just occasional light ones, so the powder isn't getting stuck in the drop tube. I think the problem in my case arises from the size of the powder flakes and the size / shape of the powder measure chamber. I use a Lee measure with an adjustable charge bar, not the Dillon, but I've gone to weighing each powder charge. I sort of expected problems with the "Dot" powders because the flakes are huge, but didn't expect so much trouble with Universal.

Trapshoter

[GrizzLeeBear]

Sagacious,
I am loading on a Dillion 550b....before getting started I check my load on two different scales one being a electronic RCBS and the other a manual.


I think jdgabbard and SciFiJim are on the right track. You are having classic "squib" loads. Too little or no powder. This is most often seen with progressive loaders and light charges of flake powders. Every once in while the powder will bridge and not drop properly from the measure causing a low or no powder charge. Since you are on the bottom end of the data, try upping the charge a little and look into each case before seating the boolit to make sure the powder charge looks right.
This is why many people that load pistol rounds on progressive presses switch to ball powders like HP38, Win. 231, HS-6, etc.

Just my 2 pennies.

[primerless]

Since you are on the bottom end of the data, try upping the charge a little and look into each case before seating the boolit to make sure the powder charge looks right.
Alot of things are happing when loading with progressive press. The one step I make sure of, is that there is powder in the case. I always use safety glasses while loading, maybe it is time to get safety glasses with bivocals.

Your two cents worth is alot.....thanks.

Good information guy's.......I hope yall don't mind ....I have been copying all recomendations, and tips, saving them for later when I start back on this load.