Help me select a mould, please!

[Archibald]

Hi fellow reloaders and casters!

I am new to the game but have been reading and researching a lot. I have most of the basic equipment needed:

Lyman Mini-Mag for smelting
Lee Production Pot for casting
Lyman 4500 for sizing, lubing, installing gas checks
130 lbs of PB ingots from sheets of radiation room doors
5 gallon pail of unsorted WW (I just picked it up)

I am going to keep checking around for more alloy, I know I need something i.e. tin, antimony, mono, lino, pewter, etc. to harden up my lead. I am purchasing a lead thermometer and a lee hardness tester as I can see how these come in handy as well.

I need some help in selecting a mould! I would like to get a six cavity mould for pistol, and two cavity mould for rifle. I will be shooting 9mm, 38 spl, .308 winchester and 300 winchester magnum. I need only a decent bullet for range shooting out to 200 meters.

I like Lee products, and I see that they are inexpensive too. I think that I would like to purchase one. I have been looking at http://www.leeprecision.com/cgi/catalog/browse.cgi?1251789891.593=/html/catalog/bullmol2.html and I really don't know what I should be considering in bullet selection. Feel free to chime in on the following with any advise:

For pistol, should I stick to WC and SWC for range shooting? Should I choose a mould that casts a lighter bullet, has less recoil, doesn't use as much of my lead as who really cares if it's just punching paper? If that's the case, then these are the smallest moulds:

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/358105sw.gif
358-105-SWC

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/3561021r.gif
356-102-1R

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c309113f.gif
C309-113-F


What would you guys do if you were me?


Thanks in advance for any input!

Arch

P.S. Any experiances you could share which involves a good LEE mould would go a long way. I see that the website has a target posted right next to some of the bullets, has your experiance been the same?

[Lloyd Smale]

the 38 105 is a great little bullet. ive yet to find a gun that didnt shoot it well. Before you buy the 9mm mold too try that bullet sized to 357 in your 9mm. It has run in a couple of mine but didnt in one.

[Piedmont]

What kind of 9mm do you have? If it feeds about anything it will work fine with those two bullets you listed. Also, what kind of .38? If is fixed sighted you better go with a much heavier bullet to get the point of impact to the sights. Lee makes a 9mm 2R bullet around 125 grains which would work well for both handguns if the .38 has adjustable sights.

For the rifles that bullet is awfully light unless you want to max out around 100 yards. If you might shoot at 200 a 170 grain or heavier will likely shoot better.

As far as hardening your alloys with additives it just depends on what velocities (more accurately PRESSURES) you want to opperate at. Air cooled 50/50 alloys of ww/pb will work just fine for light .38 loads. Nine mm loads need harder alloys even at low velocities because they are higher pressure. If you will water drop your 50/50 alloys from the mold they will be hard enough for 9mm and most rifle loads.

Get a gas check rifle mould.

[Archibald]

I didn't even think about the lighter bullet having a vastly different point of impact than the heavier, I dont' have adjustable sights so maybe I should stick with a heavier.

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/358140sw.gif
358-140-SWC

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/l358148w.gif
TL358-148-WC

I am shooting a S&W model 10 revolver in .38 special, 5 inch barrel. S&W model 5946 in 9mm. My .308 winchester is a model 700, rebarrelled with a 24" shilen, minimum headspace. Any opinions on these Lee moulds:


http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c309160r.gif
C309-160-R

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c309170f.gif
C309-170-F

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c309180r.gif
C309-180-R

[Piedmont]

The Smith and Wesson .38s were regulated with 158 grain loads so match that weight for the .38. Whatever will feed in your 9mm will work (which probably includes all the 9mm bullets you have listed). Don't go heavier than 140 grains for the 9mm or it may bulge the case at the bottom of the bullet.

Unless Shilen changed they used 8 groove rifling which will tend to a larger land dimension, just as micro groove does with Marlins. Most .308s have a ball seat (short freebore before the rifling). This might be a good place for an all body design, like a Louverin or LBT. Fill up the neck length and ball seat length with bullet bands. All of the Lee rifle designs (the last three pictures) are bore ride designs that probably won't ride the bore, which is not a good thing for accuracy.

[Archibald]

The shilen barrel is 1 in 10 inch twist, not 1 in 8. Does this change your advise?

[Piedmont]

No.
If you really want to do this right slug the barrel with a large buckshot, I use 000, or an egg shaped fishing sinker of a size a bit larger than the barrel interior. This is simple, but it intimidates a lot of people before they have done it.

I see you are looking at the cheaper molds and a Lee that might work well for you is the 160 gr. that CE Harris designed for the 7.62x39. It is listed at .312 and is a spire point. Get the one that isn't a tumble lube design. This is a tapered bullet, something like .310 on the front band and .306 on the nose. Something you may run into with the staggered magazine is that it may not want to feed some flatpoints (depends on meplat size and length). So if you are not anticipating hunting with it causes less headaches to go with a pointed or roundnosed design.

Do you understand what I meant about the ball seat and the desireability of a longer band section? Something else you run into with short actions like yours is a short overall cartridge length. This is another reason to avoid long noses in this caliber (the bore ride nose design trend toward long noses).

One more thing, you mentioned your barrel is one in 10, not 1 in 8. I wasn't saying Shilen used a one in 8 twist. I was saying they used a twist with 8 seperate grooves instead of the more common 4,5, and 6 groove rifling. The more grooves generally the shorter your rifling height, hence the larger your land dimension. If any of this is over your head at the moment just say so and it will be explained in a different way.

[Archibald]

Thanks for the explanation.

I won't be home until September 11th, so I can't slug my barrel or count the rifling lands. I understand now what you mean about the grooves, I misunderstood what you were saying initially. Would Shilen not have an exact .308 diameter bore? Are you saying it is prudent to actually confirm this by slugging the barrel?

I assume this is the 7.62 x 39 you are talking about:
http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c3121552.gif
C312-155-2R

You said it was supposed to be 160 grains, but that one was the tumble lube bullet (CTL312-160-2R).

Would it be necessary to resize this bullet? That's ok, because I would have to lube it anyhow, I'm just asking.


To be honest, this was over my head:


Unless Shilen changed they used 8 groove rifling which will tend to a larger land dimension, just as micro groove does with Marlins. Most .308s have a ball seat (short freebore before the rifling). This might be a good place for an all body design, like a Louverin or LBT. Fill up the neck length and ball seat length with bullet bands. All of the Lee rifle designs (the last three pictures) are bore ride designs that probably won't ride the bore, which is not a good thing for accuracy.

[Archibald]

Should I have put this topic in the "Cast Boolits " topic, this place doesn't seem to get as much traffic as that area?

[Bret4207]

From the sounds of it you should have about equal amounts of lead and ww's. Many people mix lead and ww alloy 50/50 for their alloy and like it. Me, I would trade the straight lead off for ww alloy. Don't make the mistake of thinking you need HARD alloy to shoot cast. That's advertising hype and nothing more. You can shoot WW alloy successfully in most guns up to at least 1500 fps. By heat treating or quenching you can go to 2K+ fps in many guns given a design the gun like and proper fit. I really wouldn't worry about alloy hardness at all at this point. What you do need to be concerned with is boolit fit. Fit is King, plain and simple. You can slug your barrels to try and determine the size you want to go with or use the simpler (more effective IMO) method of filling the throat. Take a fired case (full power load) and measure the ID diameter of the case mouth. That's the ball park figure you aim for. You can tweak things from there.

Whatever you do don't make the noobie mistake of assuming since you have a gun that shoots .308 jacketed you need to size to .308. Chances are you need a boolit running a few thousandths larger, maybe +.004 in some cases. Each gun is a law unto itself, so start with fit and worry about alloy hardness down the road. Learn to cast before you jump to a 6 cavity too. A 6 cav gives you at least 6 times the chance for problems.

[Green Frog]

Archibald,

If you live in the mid-Atlantic area (I'm in Central VA) I will be more than happy to trade clean wheel weight alloy in Lyman ingots for that lead sheathing you have in ingots... and will trade heavy your way, say 5 WW for 4 Pb. I've had these WW ingots for years and never use them any more because of the specific alloys I need for my rifle bullets, and would be happy to see them go to good use. The above offer assumes you are close enough that transport doesn't make it unfeasible and that you wish to take the advice of Bret4207 and go with straight WW as your alloy. :coffeecom

As for pistol bullet moulds, back when my elbows would allow me to shoot a lot of pistol, I liked the Lyman 357156 without using a gas check for mild loads and with the check for .357 Mag loads. It is easy to load and shoots to about the same point of aim as the factory round nose with the proper powder charge. Also, mine cast very easily, but that may have been a function of the old, well broken in mould! ;)

Regards,
Froggie :mrgreen:

[Piedmont]

Archibald, You asked,"Would Shilen not have an exact .308" diameter bore." I think this is the basis of all your misunderstanding.

A barrel is bored (drilled) then grooves are cut into it. A Shilen .308 Win. barrel probably has real close to a .308" GROOVE dimension but its bore dimension is probably around .304". The first 3 Lee rifle bullets you posted pictures of are bore ride disigns. That means the nose up front ahead of the bands is supposed to be large enough to, you guessed it, ride the bore. To do that in your barrel they might have to measure .305" which is very unlikely. They vary of cours but most probably measure .299-.302". Now if they measured that they couldn't bore ride and all that unsupported weight out front would tend to tip and not shoot for $%&*.

Now the freebore I mentioned earlier is just shiny smooth metal cut in the origin of the barrel before the rifling. On a .308 Win. this would measure around .309-.310. Can you now see how a .301ish bore ride on a bullet would just hang in space? That is why I suggested the all body bullets initially, which would have the body (band section) all sized around .310".

[Archibald]

I understand now what you mean by bore ride design.

So these are bore ride:

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c309160r.gifhttp://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c309170f.gifhttp://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c309180r.gifhttp://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c309200r.gif

And these are tapered bullets?:
http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c3121552.gifhttp://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/l3121602.gif


So it sounds to me what you're telling to tell me is that I should slug my bore, find out the BORE diameter and then try to find a bullet bigger than that diameter. So if that bore diameter is for example, .304 then I need at least a .305 in a bore-ride bullet. Or else I just get an over sized bullet like the 762x39 design which is likely .310 and try as is or size it down slightly?



BTW, I am in Ottawa, Ontario so I won't likely be trading any lead as that's too far. Sorry

[runfiverun]

now you are starting to understand.
you also have to take your throat into estimation if you have a long tapered throat a loverign design will be awesome,but if you have a tight throat like most factory rifles now days then a short bodied bore rider that doesn't go below your case neck would be a better option.
it doesn't always work this way though [my wifes 0-6 should have been a perfect fit for the rcbs 165 silhouette boolit,however it did not like it but the rcbs 150 fn with it's slightly longer bearing [body] surface was the one it shoots the best.
same measurements alloy etc, just slightly different amounts of contact with the grooves and bore area.
same with her 7x57 and my girls 7x57 same type of throats but her's likes the rcbs 145 silhouette and my girls rifle likes the heavier [168 gr] version with more bearing area.

[Piedmont]

You are understanding now Archibald. Unfortunately the two pointy .312 designs look like bore ride designs but aren't. They are a different animal but since their nose is large enough to be oversize they will act more like an all body (all bands) than any bore ride type. So you can take that 155 gr. .312 Lee bullet and gas check it and lube the grooves in a .310 die and you will be good to go.

Then just figure out your overall length by trial and error. I think most of us like either a little engagement in the throat (that will be felt when you close the bolt handle, and seen if you extract a round and look at the bullet closely) or just short of engaging. If you are lucky it will feed from both sides of the magazine at that length.

If you haven't loaded cast in a rifle before don't go for 2,500 fps. with it, go for 1,500 fps. and accuracy will come much, much more easily. Don't even try for 2,000 fps for a while because there is just so much more that needs to be right to get there and maintain accuracy.

[Archibald]

Cool, you guys are a wealth of information.

This will be my first attempt at loading cast rifle bullets. I will keep the velocities down as reccomended.

Just out of curiosity, where would those lee bore ride design's be useful? I makes me wonder since we are ruling them out for my purposes.

Do I need an neck expander for my .308 cases? If so, which size should I get? Should I just get a bunch of 308 NECK EXPANDER DIES around .308, .309, .310 and .311? How about sizing dies? The same thing or....?


Thanks again!

[Piedmont]

Those Lee bore ride designs are useful in .30 caliber rifles with tighter bore dimensions. Winchester .30-30s I have measured are around .301/.308-.309". Another use is military surplus rifles. Back in the World War II era and earlier most rifles had cut rifling (now most is done with a button being pulled through the barrel) and it tends to be deeper. Most milsurps I have slugged have a difference in bore and groove dimension of .010-.012". So they will actually bore ride many times in normal .30 caliber chamberings with bullets like those Lees.

You need an M die or tapered punch to bell the case neck just like you do with pistol ammunition.

A good place to start on sizing dies, and I assume you mean for your lubrisizer, is .310 for the rifles and .358 for the pistol and revolver. If the 9mm will allow .358" bullets and still chamber that is what you should use.

[Archibald]

So I am just thinking outloud here, and was looking at the "303 B" bullet:
http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c3121851.gif
C312-185-1R

In my mind, that should be a wider bullet, as the name indicates it's a .312 bullet as opposed to the .309 bullets we've been discussing. But the fellow who started this topic: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=60973&highlight=lee+challenger mentions "noses actually RIDE the lands with a slight draggy fit across the land tops, about .3015"-.302" in the #312-185".

So are these .309 and .312 diameters mentioned on the LEE bore-ride moulds just at the bands of the bullet while being sized approximately .302 at the nose?


Sorry if I'm bothering anybody with what seems like stupid questions, but I am honestly learning a lot. :P

[Nora]

Welcome Archibald


So I am just thinking outloud here, and was looking at the "303 B" bullet:
http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c3121851.gif
C312-185-1R.

So are these .309 and .312 diameters mentioned on the LEE bore-ride moulds just at the bands of the bullet while being sized approximately .302 at the nose?

Sorry if I'm bothering anybody with what seems like stupid questions, but I am honestly learning a lot. :P

That happens to be one of my favorite boolits. It shoots in both my 'A3 sized to .311, and my M39 unsized at .3125 very well

Yes that size is for the driving bands. My molds ( I have 2 of them) have a nose diameter of .301

As I tell my kids, "never apologize for asking a question if you don't understand. It's a lot harder to learn if you don't." :smile:

FWIW: I just ordered a Lee 358-140-SWC on Monday, should be here tomorrow. That boolit has shot very well in my Taurus 66 / 6" in the past.


Nora

[runfiverun]

think of your bbl as a cylinder inside a cylinder.
or closer to the way they are made, a hole is drilled,and then grooves are cut into whats left of the metal around the hole.
your nose fits the first cylinder,and the body fits the second cylinder.
now the important part, you need to get your bullet into those cylinders as straight as possible,some type of alignment is needed,and the nose is the first thing going in.
so it aligns the boolit to the bore by gliding into the lands just a bit.
you also want the base [body] to glide into the grooves as smoothly as possible and still seal them, not slam into a square cut neck or start of the rifling.
what to do here, get them close to each other they can't slam and cram if they are only about.001 apart.
for best results measure what you have as closely as possible and then choose what you see that looks like what you got.

[Archibald]

I have several Lee Enfield's in .303 British, and a Mosin Nagant 91/30 in 7.62x51 so I may be getting ahead of myself but the price is right at $20 so I figure I can't go wrong.

Ok, after reviewing the advise given here, and searching the forum topics I have decided upton these Lee moulds and Lyman top punches.

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c3121552.gif
C312-155-2R

http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/c3121851.gif
C312-185-1R

Lyman top punch # 467



http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/l358158s.gif
TL358-158-SWC

Lyman top punch # 429


http://www.leeprecision.com/graphics/bullets/l356124t.gif
TL356-124-TC
Lyman top punch # 402


And Lyman .358 and .310 bullet sizer dies. I will slug all of my firearms in these calibers and order more if necessary.


Thanks for all your help guys!