Gas Check Question from First timer

[dhaid-06]

I just got into casting (and posting on this site) and had a question about gas checks.

I installed 30 cal. Sierra gas checks on a Lee 180gr 30 cal. bullets with the tap it on the bench method. They seemed to go on pretty good. After I installed them I measured the diameter and it is around .316". Is that normal. Do they need to be run through a sizer or something?

I installed them in the cases, and the bullet wobbles back and forth inside the case (doesn't say centered) as the gas check is wider than the .309" dia. bullet and it pivots on the gas check in the case neck. Is this all normal, or is there something else I need to do.

Thanks for helping the new guy.

By the way I am loading .30-06 for my 1903a3.

[largom]

YES the gas checks must be run thru a sizer die after installing on the boolit. The sizer die should be a couple of thousands larger than your bore Dia.
Larry

[RayinNH]

The sizer will also crimp them on...Ray

[dhaid-06]

So I already loaded about 25 without running them through the sizer. Do they need to be pulled? or just shoot them and see what happens (probably bad accuracy?).

Thanks,

[SciFiJim]

Heck, it only 25 rounds, shoot them and see what happens. Shoot them at targets instead of game. The most fun starts out with the phrase, "I wonder what would happen if...." It will be a be a good lesson in what happens when gas checks come off.

[dromia]

Welcome to Cast Boolits dhaid-06. :drinks:

[Echo]

If you try to pull them, you will pull the boolit and leave the GC inside. Don't ask me how I know...

[lurch]

"I wonder what would happen if...."

Not to be confused with "Hey y'all - watch this..."

:kidding:

[SciFiJim]

[smilie=1:[smilie=l:

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Howdy, dhaid-06...
You DID at least re-size the case necks, right? (inquiring minds gotta know and stuff...)

How did you lubricate your boolits?

What powder are you using, and how much of it?

[XWrench3]

have you tried to chamber one yet? i am thinking, with that large of a diameter, they may not even fit into the chamber. if they will not chamber, you may have no other choice but to pull the boolits, remove the powder and primer, and fish out the checks. then start the whole process over again, including resizing the cases. IF it does chamber, point the gun down range in a safe direction, hold the gun away from your face, and see what happens. i would think everything would be ok, but no sense in hurting yourself if it does not work out that way. by the way, lee makes a nice sizer die that is less than $20.00 in most places. the boolits need to be lubed before you size them, and again after sizing. i use a light coat of lee liquid alox to size with, and a heavier coat to shoot with.

[Calamity Jake]

If they do chamber and you do fire them, look down the barrel after each one to make sure the GC went with the boolit. YOU DO NOT WANT ONE STUCK IN THE BORE.

[qajaq59]

I'd pull them. It's that darn one, in the "one in a million might be a problem" that always bothers me!

[mrbill2]

SEE WHAT HAPPENS is not a good choice ! Pull the bullets.

[RayinNH]

If you decide to shoot them don't do it over the chronograph. Dollars to donuts an errant check will take out the display...Ray

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

After thinking about it more overnight - I'd pull them.

You're not going to get valid data about your load or the boolits by shooting them.
The unsized gas checks have stretched your case necks larger than they should be. You'll need to resize the necks.

The good news is that you stopped at 25 instead of 250!

[Gohon]

If you try to pull them, you will pull the boolit and leave the GC inside. Don't ask me how I know...

Yep....they sure will. I just pulled about 90 .357 mag cast the other day and about a dozen of the checks stayed in the cartridge even though they had been crimped on. Since they had been crimped on and sized I just shot them out of a snub nose revolver I had since I was able to check the barrel after each shot. Was able to save all the brass and remelt the casts to something I wanted.

[dhaid-06]

Okay, to answer some questions. They do chamber just fine. the outside neck diameter after the unsized check went through is .340". According to Speer Vol. 14 the outside diameter should be no larger than .3397". That is awefull close.

I lubed the bullets with Lee Liquid Alox after I tapped on the gas checks. I don't know why I thought tapping them on was all you need to do.

Now that we got that out of the way, what is the worst that would happen. There ought to be enough pressure behind the GC to push it all the way out of the barrel. I can't imagine it going sideways in the barrel and letting the gas go by like a butterfly valve or something. I would think the pressure would keep it smashed against the bottom of the bullet all the way out.

On the other hand I am pretty causious by nature, I think I will pull them all. The worst part is the waste of the 25 pieces of brass. Unless someone has a way of removing the gas check when it seperateds from the bullet and is left behind in the neck.

Oh, the loads were 4 of each of 14, 16, 18, 20, & 22 grains of 2400.

Thanks for the help.

[Leftoverdj]

Shoot 'em. Ain't gonna hurt nothing. We usta shoot slip on Lyman GC all the time. Even after sizing they would slip right off. If you want to be extra careful, check the bore after every shot, but you ain't gonna find no stuck GCs.

[RayinNH]

If the checks stay behind in the case turn them sideways and pull them out with tweezers...Ray

[peter nap]

[QUOTE=Leftoverdj;653171]Shoot 'em. Ain't gonna hurt nothing. We usta shoot slip on Lyman GC all the time. QUOTE]

Is that called "Fire Sizing"?:p

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Gee, you don't have to waste the brass. If tweezers don't give you enough traction on the GC's, try some hemostats (preferred) or long-nose pliers after poking them sideways.

[eta]
I'm guessing you're working up a target load?
Four shots really isn't enough to see how your vertical stringing is doing, and 2 grains is kind of a big gap.

Have you read through this thread? http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=13425

In a nutshell, 16 grains of 2400 with your 180gr boolit should give you a decent 200 yard target load with around 1500fps muzzle velocity, and around the same energy as a .32-40.

So if you're working up a target load, I'd suggest you start with 10 round each loaded at 15, 16, and 17 grains. You'll get a better idea of what your rifle likes to shoot, and be able to keep a closer eye for any signs of pressure on cases/primers.

Alliant apparently reformulated the old 2400 powder, and the new stuff is faster. But even at 17 grains, you're several grains below starting loads suggested in the 70's.

[dhaid-06]

Thanks for the suggestions. I am working up a target load and was using these large jumps between loads to narrow down what the rifle likes, then i was going to fine tune it from there. The loads came out of an old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Starting load was 13 grains for 205 gr. and 14 gr. for 170 gr., so I started at 14 with my 180 grain bullet.

Will using my Lee factory Crimp die do any good centering the bullets back in the necks?

I have the feeling I should just start from scratch it I really want to learn anything though.

Please no refering back to my first cast boolits post years from now. It will be embarassing.

Thanks again,.

[Bret4207]

Shoot 'em. Ain't gonna hurt nothing. We usta shoot slip on Lyman GC all the time. Even after sizing they would slip right off. If you want to be extra careful, check the bore after every shot, but you ain't gonna find no stuck GCs.

+1. I used GC's without sizing them for some time. I didn't have (read couldn't afford) a sizer so I'd apply the gc and just make sure it was in the neck. It couldn't go deeper and the crimp kept the boolit there.

[Recluse]

I'd pull them. It's that darn one, in the "one in a million might be a problem" that always bothers me!

+1

Why gamble $3 worth of powder (which you can save and reuse), gas-checks, lead (which you can remelt and then recast) and primers over a gun worth hundreds of dollars?

Pull 'em, save as many of the components as you can for re-use.

I use the Lee push-through sizer to install and crimp my gas checks and do first-run sizing. If I'm using a traditional lube, I then run the gc'd boolits through the lubesizer.

But yeah, you definitely need to run your gc'd boolits through a sizer.

:coffee:

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

I am working up a target load and was using these large jumps between loads to narrow down what the rifle likes, then i was going to fine tune it from there.
I see. Well, your 2 grain steps were really pretty large. At the low end, going from 14 gr to 16 gr is over a 14% increase. Going from 15 gr to 16 gr is a 6.7% increase; a good bit more cautious.

As I suggested before, 4 rounds really isn't a large enough statistical sample to determine your average group size. Calling your shots (marking where you think they went as you fired them, on a small representation of a target) will help you to determine what the "real" group should have looked like.

The loads came out of an old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. Starting load was 13 grains for 205 gr. and 14 gr. for 170 gr., so I started at 14 with my 180 grain bullet.
Just to compare notes, what is the date of your LCBH?
Lyman #45 reloading handbook (vintage 1970) indicates a starting load of 20 gr of 2400 for 173gr through 193gr cast w/GC, but this is when 2400 was being made by Bullseye and the formulation was significantly different. It would not be wise to use that starting load with Alliant's version of 2400.


Will using my Lee factory Crimp die do any good centering the bullets back in the necks?
The neck tension won't be the same as it will in your future loads, so the data you get by firing them won't really be worth anything.


I have the feeling I should just start from scratch it I really want to learn anything though.
Now you're talking. :)


Please no refering back to my first cast boolits post years from now. It will be embarassing.
I have yet to meet a reloader who has made no mistakes. I have at least ten times that many rounds sitting here in the "to pull" pile.

The important thing is to realize as early as possible when a mistake has been made, correct it before something bad happens, and learn from the experience.

You've made a "no harm, no foul" mistake; easily rectified at minimal cost. At worst, you may have to scrap a few gas checks to the tune of about 3.6 cents each.

[dhaid-06]

I went ahead and got a Lee .309" dia push through sizer, pulled all the bullets, tapped on new gas checks, and ran them through the sizer. That makes a world of difference. So everyone can sleep well tonight, I won't be taking the chance of blowing up an guns.

Thanks for all the help.

[SierraWhiskeyMC]

Good deal!
You're applying more lube, right? Or did it stay in OK?

Did you re-size your case necks? If you just have a full-length resize/decapping die, you may be able to remove the decapping pin so that you don't have to punch your primers out. RCBS and Redding dies have removable decapping pins. I've heard that many Lee dies don't have removable decapping pins - I don't have any Lee dies.

Since the un-sized gas checks stretched the case necks, you really need to re-size them. Otherwise your case neck tension will be different from what you'll be doing in the future, and will give you confusing results.

[shotman]

try 19 gr 2400 in the o3

[qajaq59]

I went ahead and got a Lee .309" dia push through sizer, pulled all the bullets, tapped on new gas checks, and ran them through the sizer. That makes a world of difference. So everyone can sleep well tonight, I won't be taking the chance of blowing up an guns.

Thanks for all the help. Good way to go. Now your ammo is ok and you've met a bunch of other reloaders. That's a "can't lose" situation.

[Recluse]

Please no refering back to my first cast boolits post years from now. It will be embarassing.

Thanks again,.

Heh heh.

If you want embarassing, check out this popular thread we have in the "Classics & Stickies" forum-- http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=41217

I thought a stunt a buddy and me did when we were young and in the service was embarassing, but Crash Corrigan takes the cake--and pokes great fun at himself in the process.

This is "The World's Biggest Small Town" when it comes to casting and reloading. We're all neighbors. Your un-sized gas-checked boolits wobbling in the necks of your 30-06 are no more embarassing than anything any of us has ever done.

KEY THING is you followed some sound and solid advice to pull 'em and start over again. THAT shows good judgement and that is crucial when mesing with molten alloy and explosive projectiles.

Hell, YOU'LL look back at this post in several years and laugh harder than anyone else. :)

:coffee: