What caliber is this???

[JIMinPHX]

What caliber is this???


I was out in the desert a few weeks ago at a spot where people shoot fairly frequently. The ground was littered with the usual assortment of common caliber spent cases. As I was picking up the mess that someone else left behind, I stumbled upon this little curiosity, shown in the center of the picture below. It almost blended in with the 7.62 x 39 cases that were near it, but not quite. I picked it up & tried to figure out what it was. I just didn’t know. When I got home, I tried to look it up in Cartridges of the World, but I couldn’t find an exact match. The shoulder diameter of this thing was a bit too big. The closest thing that I could find was a 7.92 x 33 Kurz. Now that caliber only fits one gun that I am aware of & it’s a class III that’s not supposed to exist here in the US, so I am really not sure exactly where this thing came from. I would have thought wildcat, but this is a steel Berdan case, so that doesn't seem too likely. If anybody knows what it is, please let me know.

I took the following measurements –
Neck ID .329”
Neck OD .365”
Shoulder OD .454”
Base OD .470”
Rim OD .468”
Case Length 1.289”
Neck length .172”
The cases on either side are a 7.62 x 39 & a .223. The headstamp looks like an “04” & a “58”.

Thanks,
Jim

[runfiverun]

8mm kurz,just through a sloppy chamber as most mili guns have.

[Charlie Sometimes]

It looks like the Kurz. I've only seen ammo at a gun show, and never a gun that shoots it. Still hard to tell what it is from a photo. It would just about have to be it, since it is a steel case of foreign manufacture.

[Buckshot]

...........While the great unwashed were no longer 'free' to own and operate fully automatic firearms after the GCA of 1934, you still could by jumping through federal hoops. While the Fed still allows it (the ownership and the jumping through of hoops) several states these days have ruled thier citizens are not allowed them.

I do not know for sure but suspect the Sturmgewher44 certainly could have been imported into the United States after WW2 for those federally allowed hoop-jumpers to own. I believe it was in '86 when the Fed said no more to importation or making. Dunno for sure, but maybe importation was dead before then?

Possibly it was liberated and brought home by an enterprising GI?

...............Buckshot

[S.R.Custom]

Part of the '86 law was an amnesty, so if it was here before then and registered under the amnesty, it's all good.

Or maybe it's not registered. ;)

[JIMinPHX]

It sounds like I'm looking for Bigfoot here. I've found some crazy footprints (cases), but nobody has actually seen the beast himself (class III bang stick) yet. Perhaps an interesting quest is at hand?

[j20owner]

See here:
BD44 (http://www.ssd-weapon.com/engl_web/produkte_en/bd44_en/bd44_en.htm)

[Doc_Stihl]

There are MP44's around. I know of atleast 2 in my area, one is transferable, the other is a pre 86 dealer sample.

[3006guns]

Didn't the semi-auto Volksturm (sp) fire the same cartridge? In reality, it might be more valuable to a collector than the Stg44 as there were so few that survived the war.

[mag44uk]

I have seen them at Knob Creek and a friend here in gun free UK has one of the BD44 linked above. Its in straight pull configuration so it is legal here. He got the brass for it from Graffs.
Regards,
Tony

[Bob Krack]

What caliber is this???
I took the following measurements –
Neck ID .329”
Neck OD .365”
Shoulder OD .454”
Base OD .470”
Rim OD .468”
Case Length 1.289”
Neck length .172”
Jim

From Steve's Pages

[Combat Diver]

There were approx 250,000 MP43/MP44/STG44 guns made. I know of a half dozen found in Iraq in 03'. I had two made in 44' along with 60 rds of East German ammo. The Yugoslavian and East German Army continued using them for a few years after WWII. The Yugo guns then made there way to Syria and then into Iraq. Here's a few photos.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/9809M98_und_MP44_mit_Patr_Named.jpg
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/9809Blacked_out_George_MP44_sighting_down2.JPG
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/9809Blacked_out_George_MP44_2.JPG

Youngest gun in the photos is the MP44. The Remington-Rand M1911A1 was built in 1943 (issued) and the Czech BRNO Persian Mauser 98/29 was maded before WWII.

[Combat Diver]

Went back and checked my notes/references. Yours was made at Factory 04 in East Germany in 1958. The ammo that I had was made in 1961 in the same plant. It came packed in 15rd cardboard boxes and labeled as 7.92-mm-Patr.Kz 43 SmE mit St. Hulse. Bullert weight was 8.1gm (124gr) and listed velocity is 686mps (2,247fps). St. Hulse means steel case and SmE is the splitzer bullet construction. There is also a East Germany Factory 05. Hornady is currently making 124gr Jacketed ammo for it. Here's another picture of the same MP44 (other one was in fair condition)

http://www.hunt101.com/data/566/9809MP44_RZ.JPG

[Tom308]

I don't know for sure but read a story a while back about a large number of WW2 German firearms showing up in the middle east. Mostly in countries being supplied by Russia. The reason offered was to deny Russian involvement. Could this have come back with returning military?

[StarMetal]

The Stg44 is available today in a semi-auto version today.

Joe

[Sonoma2k2]

hey guys i picked up a bunch of brass this past Sunday and i believe it goes to this rifle. headstamped says 7.92 A A and dated 1955 to 1935 on other cases. hell i probabaly picked up about 60 pieces or so of the brass. Is this a round that gets reloaded alot or just put it in the recycle batch? it has cleaned up extremely well

[Combat Diver]

Sonoma,

Are you sure the date is 1935? I didn't think the cartridge was invented until late 39-40'. I'll check my references for a A A factory.

[carpetman]

starmetal Joe---"The Stg44 is available today in a semi-auto version today". Was wondering if today it is available today?

[dominicfortune00]

A friend of mine has a large ring Mauser action custom barreled to 7.92 x 33.

She shoots sweet.

[TAWILDCATT]

you could register MG up to 1968 whith out hasseles.a lot of stuff came in in WW2.
I brought in pistols and rifles and no one looked or asked.

[Sonoma2k2]

Combat Driver,

I went and pulled the cases out of my scrap/recycle bud light box and sure enough there is a 1935 headstamp on 1 and another has this marking "headstamp is divided into 4 sections with a Z surrounded by a circle, to left is the number 19, underneath that is the roman numeral for 3 and to the right is 36" interesting stuff. any ideas???

[Sonoma2k2]

i didnt think the picture was gonna turn out this good. hope this helps.

[Who's this Guy ?]

The 7.92x33 kurz came about in final form in 1941. Brass cased ammo was made in this caliber in Argentina and Spain along with steel cased ammo in East Germany after 1945 in addition to the Nazi stuff. The cases you have pictured may be a different caliber or were modified into 7.92 kurz. I have seen these headstamps before but can't put my finger on it now. Maybe somebody else has the answer, in the meantime back to the library I go.